No crop on 4K coming in next APS-C DSLR [CR1]

syder

EOS RP
Apr 29, 2012
200
59
Wow. I was initially tempted to write something sarcastic, but if this is true (4k/60, 1080/>=120, no crop of the 1.6x) I can see myself doing the unthinkable. I might actually (gasp) buy another Canon camera ! As much as I love my incredible Panasonic S1 for video, it's AF is not the best and this could be a great companion / compliment to it for all things motion. But I am not holding out hope. I mean they have their precious little cine EOS to protect, right ?
I almost thought you weren't going to say something sarcastic!

But really... To compete with the C200 this would need to do 4k60p RAW. And have 10 stops of built in ND. And built in XLRs. And proper outputs. And handle like a videocamera. Etc etc.

This might be a passable B cam or something to throw on a gimbal, but no-one in the market for a Cinema camera is going to opt for one of these instead.
 
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stevelee

FT-QL
Jul 6, 2017
1,252
285
Davidson, NC
It might be capable, but it probably won't be rated at 200,000. Based on the user submitted data at Oleg Kikin's Shutter Life Database (click site map to see the full camera model list), there aren't enough 80D users who even care about shutter life, much less have shot more than 100K frames to give a statistically significant sample. On the other hand, a lot more 7D Mark II shooters report high frame counts.
Wouldn't the difference in the way they are used account for some of that? People shooting the 7D II would tend to use multiple shots per shutter button push than would those using the 80D, right? That would be on top of shooting in situations where you take many more pictures, as in sports.
 

tron

EOS 5D SR
Nov 8, 2011
4,059
359
If the 90D shoots at 10fps then it had better have the same typical shutter life as 7DII has (which also shoots at 10fps!)
 
Mar 15, 2018
37
38
United States
It might be capable, but it probably won't be rated at 200,000. Based on the user submitted data at Oleg Kikin's Shutter Life Database (click site map to see the full camera model list), there aren't enough 80D users who even care about shutter life, much less have shot more than 100K frames to give a statistically significant sample. On the other hand, a lot more 7D Mark II shooters report high frame counts.
Not to besmirch 7D users, but "spray and pray" is a mainstay of action and wildlife shooting, so those users would be more sensitive to shutter life. So far, I've averaged around 1000 images per 3-5 day vacation on my 80D, and how many of those can I take in a year? For real estate, food, automotive work, etc. it's all about the composition, three shots at most per subject to extend dynamic range and maybe three groups of three just to give yourself some wiggle room in post or change the perspective. It would take me years to approach 200k shutter actuations. I've never shot a wedding, but I assume 2-3k photos is an upper limit for how many shots you can realistically compose during a 3-4 hour ceremony (without spray and pray).
 

jvillain

EOS T7i
Sep 29, 2018
98
79
Rolling shutter is to be quite bad, then. Everyone is after no-crop 4K but those cameras have quite bad rolling shutter (like Sony A6X00 series).
Rolling shutter on the R with it's crop in 4K is pretty rancid so I sure hope what ever is coming is going to address that.
 
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cpreston

EOS T7i
Mar 22, 2014
99
40
What's the difference, at least in practice, between binning and downsampling?
With the cinema series, Canon actually uses a 4K sensor to create the 2K image. In this case, the downsampling is very straightforward and less processor intensive as it just uses the 4X extra pixels of the sensor to produce the four sets of color information to create the debayered 2K video. As far as I can tell, the EOS-R uses the exact same technique to create its 1080p cropped recording from its "4K" sensor crop. Ultimately, I think Canon is intending to just jump to an 8K sensor for an easily downsampled 4K image rather than design a chip that can interpolate a downsampled 4K image from something like a 30MP sensor
 

sulla

EOS RP
Dec 31, 2012
246
14
Austria
www.flickr.com
with a resolution of 33,1776 megapixels Canon could do a 7680 x 4320 px sensor an if Canon can do a 2-line 2-row readout thus combine 4 sensor pixels into one video pixel they could get 4K (3840 × 2160) video resolution form the full sensor, without extra crop. no need for line skipping. stills could be shot with 33MP.
 

bhf3737

---
Sep 9, 2015
473
497
Calgary, Canada
www.flickr.com
Both lineskipping and binning are objectively incorrect designs because they change the sampling from what the antialiasing filter was designed for.

The purpose of the antialiasing filter is to spread light across adjacent pixels so that the camera does not see things that are not there. It has to be designed for that particular pixel pitch (so that it blurs into the next pixel, and not the next 2). When you introduce line skipping with video the antialiasing filter that was there for stills doesn't work. Binning is no better regarding aliasing, because it's still sampling at the same lower spatial frequency as lineskipping; its only advantage over lineskipping is lower noise.

With downsampling, the camera is taking the antialiased data and then interpolating between those values to find the correct value.

If a camera uses lineskipping, one of two things is true: (i) the engineers did not understand sampling theory, or (ii) the maker did not want to spend the money to put a decent processor in the camera. Either way, I wouldn't buy such a camera. If Sony could put true downsampling in the original RX10, it should be in a 2019 Canon 7D successor.
I am afraid the explanation provided is incorrect.
There are currently 4 methods to process video signal in camera:
1) pixel binning; 2) line skipping; 3) oversampling; 4) cropping.
In signal processing theory, oversampling (i.e. getting more samples from a signal, as in Nyquest theorem) introduces unwanted artifacts and aliasing. These two need to be filtered with a Low Pass filter. So you may end up with better noise control, at the expense of slightly more blurred picture. Oversampling needs more processing power that may be manifested by reduced battery life and more heat generation.
There is no objectively right or wrong design and engineers do understand the sampling theory.
Design here is an engineering decision for camera manufacturers to reach a compromise between the sample size, crop factor, sensor read-out speed, processing power, battery capacity and heat management. Some manufacturers prefer to go for oversampling (S1?), the others may go for pixel binning (Z7?), line skipping (A7Riii?) and cropping (EOS-R?) or a combination of them. So far, no camera manufacturer has come up with a technology which is a clear winner here.
 

CanonFanBoy

EOS 5D SR
Jan 28, 2015
4,106
1,652
Irving, Texas
Wow. I was initially tempted to write something sarcastic, but if this is true (4k/60, 1080/>=120, no crop of the 1.6x) I can see myself doing the unthinkable. I might actually (gasp) buy another Canon camera ! As much as I love my incredible Panasonic S1 for video, it's AF is not the best and this could be a great companion / compliment to it for all things motion. But I am not holding out hope. I mean they have their precious little cine EOS to protect, right ?
Yes! People looking at one of Canon's Cinema cameras for production works are absolutely also looking at crop sensor APSC cameras to do the same work. A 90D is a real threat to that line. (Sarcastic on my part.) Unbelievable. :rolleyes::whistle:
 
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digigal

Traveling the world one step at a time.
Aug 26, 2014
143
172
Wouldn't the difference in the way they are used account for some of that? People shooting the 7D II would tend to use multiple shots per shutter button push than would those using the 80D, right? That would be on top of shooting in situations where you take many more pictures, as in sports.
I bought my 7DMII the minute it came out to replace my 7D and have used it to take the overwhelming majority of my pictures--99% (some limited IR with converted M3 and some landscapes with an M5). It's been to Africa innumerable times; the polar regions both North and South innumerable times, and points in-between and now the old warhorse has >380,000 clicks although it's rated for only 200,00. Yes, it's definitely living on borrowed time and Canon has certainly given me more than my money's worth on this camera--only cleaning has been needed. Bought a brand new one to tide me over until I see what Canon decides and what Sony continues to throw out. Now have the R which I tend to substitute for lower light situations and less fast action situations but it still is not as comfortable as holding the 7DMII with a long lens on it. Learning how to shoot to the right (underexposing is deadly with the 7D) goes a long way in improving the results; sometimes you're just stuck with no light and that's when the animals show up and do their thing--that's nature. But for me--an ancient, little old lady--still trying to do wildlife in many out of the way places I have to have equipment I can handle that provides the reach I need and the 7DMII + 100-400 has done that at the trade off of the noisy file and low light limitations. I just hope Canon continues to offer this (or a better crop) option to me (or a full frame will high pixel count, fast focus, and at least a 5-6 frame rate). I just hate to have to learn a whole new system at this point in my life.:cautious:
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
1,056
512
Wouldn't the difference in the way they are used account for some of that? People shooting the 7D II would tend to use multiple shots per shutter button push than would those using the 80D, right? That would be on top of shooting in situations where you take many more pictures, as in sports.
Absolutely. But anyone who thinks such shooters are going to accept the "90D" as a replacement for the 7D Mark II if it only has a 100,000 actuation shutter rating have no idea what such shooters expect. Especially when the Nikon D500 is right there with the 7D Mark II in terms of shutter life.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
1,056
512
Didn't they introduce that Rebel Pro with the 77D/800D? Forum users and reviewers dismissed it, but it seems to be quite popular.
They actually introduced it with the Rebel T6s/760D that was the "Rebel Semi-Pro" version of the Rebel T6i/750D. When they replaced both of them, the 77D is effectively the "Rebel T7s/810D" to the Rebel T7i/800D.
 
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hollybush

EOS M50
Feb 1, 2012
43
19
... as in Nyquest theorem ...
It's spelled "Nyquist".

These two need to be filtered with a Low Pass filter.
Presumably you mean binning and line skipping. Well, yes, they do. That's also called the antialiasing filter (it passes lower spatial frequencies), and is usually a physical layer in front of the sensor. (We'll leave out Pentax's technology where they do it by precisely shaking the sensor to induce blur; that solves the problem but Canon don't use this system.) The trouble comes when you also want to use the camera to take still pictures at a higher resolution than video. If you pick a spatial frequency for your low pass filter suitable for stills, it doesn't work with video, and if you pick one for video it blurs stills badly. Because it's a physical filter, you can't change the frequency once it's in the camera.

So you may end up with better noise control, at the expense of slightly more blurred picture.
It's a bit of a stretch classifying aliasing artifacts as noise, especially when replying to my post where I was talking about (mainly shot) noise in relation to the noise difference between lineskipping and binning. To be clear: binning will have less such noise, simply because all the photons landing on all the pixels are counted, whereas with lineskipping the photons that land on the pixels that were skipped are not counted.

Some manufacturers prefer to go for oversampling (S1?), the others may go for pixel binning (Z7?), line skipping (A7Riii?) and cropping (EOS-R?) or a combination of them. So far, no camera manufacturer has come up with a technology which is a clear winner here.
I don't think the Z7 or A7rIII have antialiasing filters at all, so lineskipping and pixel binning are no different from downsampling: there'll always be aliasing, no matter what you do. Since Canon have always put antialiasing filters in their 7 series, such cameras are not relevant to the discussion here.

I gave an example of a camera that is a clear winner in my original post: the Sony RX10. IIRC the A7S also downsamples from a sensor with an antialiasing filter.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
1,056
512
Not to besmirch 7D users, but "spray and pray" is a mainstay of action and wildlife shooting, so those users would be more sensitive to shutter life. So far, I've averaged around 1000 images per 3-5 day vacation on my 80D, and how many of those can I take in a year? For real estate, food, automotive work, etc. it's all about the composition, three shots at most per subject to extend dynamic range and maybe three groups of three just to give yourself some wiggle room in post or change the perspective. It would take me years to approach 200k shutter actuations. I've never shot a wedding, but I assume 2-3k photos is an upper limit for how many shots you can realistically compose during a 3-4 hour ceremony (without spray and pray).
Wedding ceremonies are typically over in a half hour or less, depending on how many people have to be escorted in one at a time before the bride. It's the before and after ceremony shoots that push up the frame count. In addition to 2-3 hours of "getting ready" shoots for both the bride and her attendants and the groom/groomsmen, a "first look" mini-shoot, and the actual ceremony, many couples now do what is effectively a private post-ceremony shoot with the bride/groom for an hour or more after the group photos have been taken, sometimes at a different venue, and before the party gets cranked up at a third or fourth venue that may be all the way across a large metro area. And the parties can go well into the night. It's not hard at all to shoot well over 2,000K frames over 8-10-12-14 hours for a full service wedding shoot. Of course that load is being spread over two or three bodies and multiple shooters at least for some of those portions.

But neither an 80D nor 7D Mark II type camera is the ideal tool for that. FF cameras such as the 5D Mark IV or 1D X Mark II are what those folks are using.
 
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Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
1,056
512
Not to besmirch 7D users, but "spray and pray" is a mainstay of action and wildlife shooting, so those users would be more sensitive to shutter life. So far, I've averaged around 1000 images per 3-5 day vacation on my 80D, and how many of those can I take in a year? For real estate, food, automotive work, etc. it's all about the composition, three shots at most per subject to extend dynamic range and maybe three groups of three just to give yourself some wiggle room in post or change the perspective. It would take me years to approach 200k shutter actuations. I've never shot a wedding, but I assume 2-3k photos is an upper limit for how many shots you can realistically compose during a 3-4 hour ceremony (without spray and pray).

Just because someone shoots several thousand frames at an event over a number of hours doesn't mean one is indiscriminately "spraying and praying."

I've shot marching band competitions where there was a different band every 15-20 minutes for hours on end. The day starts out with the smaller groups, but by the end you had 8 minutes (480 seconds) or so - the rest of the 15-20 minutes is between each performance while one group leaves and the next comes in - to try and get 2-3 sellable frames of as many as you could of the 200-250 kids on the field at one time.

It's the same thing when shooting scholastic sports. Large schools may play 50+ different kids over the course of 70-80 plays in a high school football game, and every parent who can't find several dozen of their child (who only made it into the game for one four-down series) to choose from wants to know "Why didn't you take any pictures of my kid?" And then there are the cheerleader moms who think you are there to spend the entire evening shooting hundreds of photos of their little princesses...

There are also the shooters who set up on popular "touring roads", such as an 11-mile section of US 129 near Deal's Gap,TN in The great Smoky Mountains National Park. The road is known as "The Tail of the Dragon." Sports car clubs and motorcycle clubs and enthusiasts come from all over just to ride it. During high summer, several thousand vehicles will travel over it each day. There are multiple companies that set up at various scenic curves and shoot every single vehicle that passes, post low res watermarked proofs of each frame online, and sell digital downloads, prints, mugs, keychains, etc...

This guy posted around 3,000 frames for 6/8/2019.
This company posted 2,300 frames on 6/8/2019, including over 1,100 in barely an hour as some type of bicycle rally/race went by.
There's also this company on the same 11-mile stretch of road.
 
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crazyrunner33

EOS RP
Nov 4, 2011
265
80
I was half-joking but on the serious side my 5DIV does crop at 4K so there is that if it is needed. It would be nice to have it as an option but I have no experience in video. I only do photos but for a 5 min video with tripod and 7DII and 500II on it (Great crested grebes building their nest).
Well played, sir. There should be an option for it in the future.

A lot of the Sony sensor based cameras offer the option to switch between full frame and crop 4K. The Z6 and Z7 are a good preview of that. The Z6 oversamples for a nice 4K image in full frame mode while the Z7 uses a less appealing line skipping. They both have full readout 4K modes that are cropped like the 5D Mark IV. For the Z7, the full readout is better than the line skipping, but the low light for the Z6 isn't as good in the crop mode as it is in the oversampled full frame.

It wouldn't surprise me if someday we have a digital zoom like on cell phone, cropping in until the full readout of 4k. On the future 50-100 mp sensors, that can be quite a bit.
 

Andyx01

EOS T7i
Apr 22, 2013
84
0
39.3MP would make much more sense: 7680 x 5120

(For some reason 39.3 would likely become 39.5 to account for whatever overhead they seem to pad into these MP calculations.)

7680 / 2 = 3840

5120 / 2 = 2560

2560 adjusted for aspect ratio compliance = 2160
 

ashmadux

Art Director, Visual Artist, Freelance Photography
Jul 28, 2011
427
19
New Yawk
photography.ashworld.com
N.G.H.

From Canon? Not a chance in hell this will happen.

Let us all begin to count the ways this body will be inferior to the mighty d500.

Then again , there shoulnt be another body even close to its class in aspc.

but...this is Canon. It will be borked somehow.