ARE Canon heading down the same track as Kodak

dak723 said:
Again, it is easy to dump on Kodak and say they just didn't adapt to the transition from film to digital, but they made most of the initial cameras and a lot of the sensors, too. But it was not nearly enough to offset the almost complete loss of film and related products because there was no digital substitute for them.

Exactly!

The vast bulk of Kodak was paper, film, and chemicals. It vanished overnight and they were left with huge amounts of infrastructure which had suddenly turned from being assets into liabilities. Everyone knew digital was coming, but the speed at which the p/s cameras took over was astounding.
 
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Don Haines said:
dak723 said:
Again, it is easy to dump on Kodak and say they just didn't adapt to the transition from film to digital, but they made most of the initial cameras and a lot of the sensors, too. But it was not nearly enough to offset the almost complete loss of film and related products because there was no digital substitute for them.

Exactly!

The vast bulk of Kodak was paper, film, and chemicals. It vanished overnight and they were left with huge amounts of infrastructure which had suddenly turned from being assets into liabilities. Everyone knew digital was coming, but the speed at which the p/s cameras took over was astounding.

Therein lies the crux of it.

A portion of internet forum experts believe that it will be at the same speed at which EF, EFS lenses and DSLRs will vanish, with EFM being too nascent to fill the gaps. Some people hypothesize that Canon will turn into another Kodak because by 2020, DSLRs will be specialty devices.

I don't agree with that assessment at all, because I don't think film vs digital is a good comparison with DSLR versus mirrorless.

Digital vs film had two massive benefits: photos no longer cost anything to develop and you could see your results right away. For those who were never film photography enthusiasts, it's hard to overstate those two benefits. I spent enough money on Ilford paper and chemicals back then to buy a really nice piece of camera gear every year. Because of these benefits, it was easy to look early shortcomings of digital, and then to rapidly buy significantly upgraded models.

The benefits between mirrorless versus DSLR are much more dubious if you're not interested in videography. For some photography tasks, mirrorless are a disadvantage (like wildlife/sports and flash/strobe photography), while for others, mirrorless have some nice advantages (like candids and street photography). But in either case, it's nothing near the difference between digital and film.

And finally, one of the most often stated benefits, size and weight, are practically all in consumer lenses, with pro lenses being as large or larger than DSLR counterparts, making the slimmer bodies an ergonomic disadvantage.

So, will mirrorless continue to gain traction? Absolutely, I think so. The lure of WYSIWIG is high, and the concept of grabbing frames off a camcorder is an appealing one. It's not a fad, and it's not going away. But at the same time, it's not a silver bullet and I think that DSLRs will remain more popular for a variety of tasks for the perceivable future.
 
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Don Haines said:
The vast bulk of Kodak was paper, film, and chemicals. It vanished overnight and they were left with huge amounts of infrastructure which had suddenly turned from being assets into liabilities. Everyone knew digital was coming, but the speed at which the p/s cameras took over was astounding.

Kodak also made a bet that people would still need to print their digital images to store, share and show them around. The smartphone (with its larger screen) and "social" sites destroyed most of that market too. It's no surprise that Kodak had to file for bankruptcy in 2012, a few years after the successful launches of the iPhone and Facebook (yet, the Fujifilm Instax cameras sell well)

But that paradigm shift came from outside the photo industry, and I guess many executive at Kodak couldn't see it coming.

And what was left of the consumer image printing industry also saw new competitors like Canon, Epson and HP - labs inkjet prints became on par with chemical ones.
 
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Talys said:
I don't agree with that assessment at all, because I don't think film vs digital is a good comparison with DSLR versus mirrorless.

Of course it's not. Kodak suddenly found itself with a large chemical know-how and manufacturing capabilities that became basically useless, and a remunerative consumables business which disappeared quickly. Its organization was designed around that business model, and changing wasn't easy. It would have needed a big reorganization and downsizing, something always hard to propose to boards and shareholders - who usually can't see beyond the next quarter - until it's too late.

Sure, the P&S and low-end DSRLs market has been mostly eroded by smartphones, but that is a common issue for every company in the sector, no one could take advantage of it over others, even Sony smartphones business isn't good.

Adding an EVF or 4K is not at all outside Canon know-how and manufacturing capabilities. In the 1980s, Canon was late to adopt TTL and AF. Despite that, the T70 did sell well. Then came the T90 and EOS/EF line. More innovative brands no longer exist today.

It looks sometimes Canon prefer a few big long jumps instead of many shorter ones. It could be some conservatism among management, or a market strategy. Till now, it worked.

Camera spec sheets don't automatically translates in more sales. Especially for people who don't buy a "body", but a "system", and aren't so willingly to replace it fully for features they may not need.
 
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LDS said:
Don Haines said:
The vast bulk of Kodak was paper, film, and chemicals. It vanished overnight and they were left with huge amounts of infrastructure which had suddenly turned from being assets into liabilities. Everyone knew digital was coming, but the speed at which the p/s cameras took over was astounding.

Kodak also made a bet that people would still need to print their digital images to store, share and show them around. The smartphone (with its larger screen) and "social" sites destroyed most of that market too. It's no surprise that Kodak had to file for bankruptcy in 2012, a few years after the successful launches of the iPhone and Facebook (yet, the Fujifilm Instax cameras sell well)

But that paradigm shift came from outside the photo industry, and I guess many executive at Kodak couldn't see it coming.

And what was left of the consumer image printing industry also saw new competitors like Canon, Epson and HP - labs inkjet prints became on par with chemical ones.
You are right about that..... digital displays severely cut the market for prints, and photo printers captured most of it. The money to be made printing shifted quickly from developing/printing to ink cartridges......
 
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LDS said:
Kodak also made a bet that people would still need to print their digital images to store, share and show them around. The smartphone (with its larger screen) and "social" sites destroyed most of that market too.
The fact a smartphone is camera, video handy-cam, and photo album/video player all combined is an often overlook factor in the destruction of the P/S market. Add cloud storage and it has an automated back-up system as well.

While serious enthusiasts and pros will argue the relative merits of dSLR v. ML, everyone else just uses their phone. If someone asks you to show them that great photo you took of 'Aunt Millie' last year can you call it up on the back of your camera? No, well maybe that's a problem.

Dropping the mirrorbox is one more step away from mechanical parts mastery shifting towards reliance on electronics/software to do the same job. It also provides more physical space to add additional processing. Maybe someday 'Aunt Millie' will again appear on your camera screen.
 
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Kodak was killed by momentum and a disruptive technology.

They were heavily invested in infrastructure that suddenly became worthless. When that happens, you can’t get rid of it because nobody will buy it from you.

Imagine you are Ford cars. You have a series of factories and suppliers. You have knowledge and experience. You also have pensioned workers, loans, financing, inventory, and a worldwide network of dealers and parts, as well as an obligation to service what you have sold.

HarryFilm (he is a genius......) invents a transporter pod.... now instead of driving in to work and suffering through rush hour traffic, you can instantly teleport. Car sales plummet. Just like two hour printing vanished, so do the cars on the highways. Ford, despite knowing what is happening, is powerless to stop it and because of momentum, can not change quickly enough, and even if they could, Harry has captured the market.

The thing about disruptive technologies, is that they are disruptive. Mirrorless is not a disruptive technology, it is an incremental improvement.
 
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old-pr-pix said:
If someone asks you to show them that great photo you took of 'Aunt Millie' last year can you call it up on the back of your camera? No, well maybe that's a problem.

Why? If there are more comfortable devices to show images - smartphones, tablets, TVs, computers -, devices you always have at hand, why should you use your camera? How large could become the display on a camera before it impacts usability?

Why put your $4K camera in the hands of Uncle Bob, known for his clumsiness, just to show him a photo of Aunt Mary? Or to show your last travel at the pub after a few beers?

Many devices are only useful at the creation stage, then there are better ones to share and consume the results.
 
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Don Haines said:
Kodak was killed by momentum and a disruptive technology.

They were heavily invested in infrastructure that suddenly became worthless. When that happens, you can’t get rid of it because nobody will buy it from you.

Imagine you are Ford cars. You have a series of factories and suppliers. You have knowledge and experience. You also have pensioned workers, loans, financing, inventory, and a worldwide network of dealers and parts, as well as an obligation to service what you have sold.

HarryFilm (he is a genius......) invents a transporter pod.... now instead of driving in to work and suffering through rush hour traffic, you can instantly teleport. Car sales plummet. Just like two hour printing vanished, so do the cars on the highways. Ford, despite knowing what is happening, is powerless to stop it and because of momentum, can not change quickly enough, and even if they could, Harry has captured the market.

The thing about disruptive technologies, is that they are disruptive. Mirrorless is not a disruptive technology, it is an incremental improvement.

Well said. Digital cameras REPLACED film. For all practical purposes ENDING the need for film, paper, chemicals, photo processing labs and stores. If mirrorless replaces DSLRs, 99% of the camera and all accessories will remain the same. All it ends is the need for a mirror and associated mechanical parts.
 
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Antono Refa said:
9VIII said:
Modern refrigerators work well enough, but they're no better than a fridge from 30 years ago (and often worse).

When my grandparents passed away, one of their daughters took the refrigerator. At this point there was a short discussion of how old it is. They got it close to another memorable event, so the answer was the refrigerator was close to 50 years old. It was in perfect working order, and never had to be fixed.

No wonder manufacturers are implementing planned obsolescence.

Occasionally I will read a review on cnet of a really expensive refrigerator. They will go through all the features, bells, whistles, internet connections, TV screen, Bluetooth, grocery list maker, etc., etc., and conclude that it works absolutely great for everything except keeping food cold.
 
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stevelee said:
Antono Refa said:
9VIII said:
Modern refrigerators work well enough, but they're no better than a fridge from 30 years ago (and often worse).

When my grandparents passed away, one of their daughters took the refrigerator. At this point there was a short discussion of how old it is. They got it close to another memorable event, so the answer was the refrigerator was close to 50 years old. It was in perfect working order, and never had to be fixed.

No wonder manufacturers are implementing planned obsolescence.

Occasionally I will read a review on cnet of a really expensive refrigerator. They will go through all the features, bells, whistles, internet connections, TV screen, Bluetooth, grocery list maker, etc., etc., and conclude that it works absolutely great for everything except keeping food cold.

Fwiw we upgraded our refrigerator just over a year ago and find food lasts a lot longer in there than in the one(s) it replaced. Certainly, some new items have gimmicks attached (internet-connected fridges are still ridiculous), but that is not to say in general progress isn't being made. You always had to use common sense when making purchases, and that is still true.
 
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LDS said:
old-pr-pix said:
If someone asks you to show them that great photo you took of 'Aunt Millie' last year can you call it up on the back of your camera? No, well maybe that's a problem.

Why? If there are more comfortable devices to show images - smartphones, tablets, TVs, computers -, devices you always have at hand, why should you use your camera?
Indeed... my point is that many people have reached this same conclusion and have stopped using their 'camera' preferring their smart phone instead. I anticipate general market consumer level sales of ILC's will continue to erode. Enthusiasts and pros will continue to use dSLR's and ML and argue amongst themselves which is better; but the millions of consumers who fund the industry are going away.

Smartphones are an equally disruptive technology. Not scientific, but big family gatherings have transitioned from Instamatics and disposable cameras to digital P&S, perhaps a few Rebels, now to smartphones. Those who invested in P&S and Rebels have mostly abandoned them for the ever-present smartphone. Where once 4x6 snapshots were passed around, now it is everyone sharing photos on their phones.
 
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scyrene said:
stevelee said:
Antono Refa said:
9VIII said:
Modern refrigerators work well enough, but they're no better than a fridge from 30 years ago (and often worse).

When my grandparents passed away, one of their daughters took the refrigerator. At this point there was a short discussion of how old it is. They got it close to another memorable event, so the answer was the refrigerator was close to 50 years old. It was in perfect working order, and never had to be fixed.

No wonder manufacturers are implementing planned obsolescence.

Occasionally I will read a review on cnet of a really expensive refrigerator. They will go through all the features, bells, whistles, internet connections, TV screen, Bluetooth, grocery list maker, etc., etc., and conclude that it works absolutely great for everything except keeping food cold.

Fwiw we upgraded our refrigerator just over a year ago and find food lasts a lot longer in there than in the one(s) it replaced. Certainly, some new items have gimmicks attached (internet-connected fridges are still ridiculous), but that is not to say in general progress isn't being made. You always had to use common sense when making purchases, and that is still true.

We actually bought a super-duper refrigerator about a year ago. It cost more than brand new 1DXII, and I have to say, it's a joy to use.

You can set the temperature and humidity individually for each section, including flex compartments that can go between deep freeze and wine cooler. It also has a ton of LED lights inside (including on the sides of the fridge), so that there are no dark corners and it is very thoughtfully designed so that you don't end up with stuff at the back of the fridge that you can't see, forget about, and spoils.

Practically, we just find that we have a cleaner fridge; but also, vegetables last a lot longer, because they're inside their own temperature/humidity controlled compartment instead of the main fridge. There are a whole bunch of other very useful features, as well; too many to list, but suffice it to say, the design is very intelligent, and the feel of the build quality it is like the difference between it and our old fridge is like going from a 17-55 STM to a 24-70L.

Also, measuring the current draw, it uses considerably less power than our old fridge, which is impressive considering that its a little bigger on the outside, and quite a bit larger on the inside.

I don't expect that it will last 50 years, though. I'd be thrilled if it lasted 15.
 
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Talys said:
scyrene said:
stevelee said:
Antono Refa said:
9VIII said:
Modern refrigerators work well enough, but they're no better than a fridge from 30 years ago (and often worse).

When my grandparents passed away, one of their daughters took the refrigerator. At this point there was a short discussion of how old it is. They got it close to another memorable event, so the answer was the refrigerator was close to 50 years old. It was in perfect working order, and never had to be fixed.

No wonder manufacturers are implementing planned obsolescence.

Occasionally I will read a review on cnet of a really expensive refrigerator. They will go through all the features, bells, whistles, internet connections, TV screen, Bluetooth, grocery list maker, etc., etc., and conclude that it works absolutely great for everything except keeping food cold.

Fwiw we upgraded our refrigerator just over a year ago and find food lasts a lot longer in there than in the one(s) it replaced. Certainly, some new items have gimmicks attached (internet-connected fridges are still ridiculous), but that is not to say in general progress isn't being made. You always had to use common sense when making purchases, and that is still true.

We actually bought a super-duper refrigerator about a year ago. It cost more than brand new 1DXII, and I have to say, it's a joy to use.

You can set the temperature and humidity individually for each section, including flex compartments that can go between deep freeze and wine cooler. It also has a ton of LED lights inside (including on the sides of the fridge), so that there are no dark corners and it is very thoughtfully designed so that you don't end up with stuff at the back of the fridge that you can't see, forget about, and spoils.

Practically, we just find that we have a cleaner fridge; but also, vegetables last a lot longer, because they're inside their own temperature/humidity controlled compartment instead of the main fridge.

Also, measuring the current draw, it uses considerably less power than our old fridge, which is impressive considering that its quite a bit larger.

I don't expect that it will last 50 years, though. I'd be thrilled if it lasted 15.

So you're saying that Canon is so far behind in cutting-edge refrigerator tech, that they'd better release a killer product next year, or they're doomed!

At least that's what understood you to say... :) :P
 
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old-pr-pix said:
their smart phone instead. I anticipate general market consumer level sales of ILC's will continue to erode. Enthusiasts and pros will continue to use dSLR's and ML and argue amongst themselves which is better; but the millions of consumers who fund the industry are going away.

We are talking about two separate tasks. Photography has always been made by two separate processes, the image taking one, and the storage/display/sharing one. If to watch a daguerreotype you would have needed a clusmy camera, I don't think they would have been a success.

The smartphone can cover both of them, obviously, but still with some limitations. The storage/sharing part is not fully covered by smartphones, because local space could still be limited, especially in budget models, and devices may break, be lost, stolen or replaced - not many consumers use microSD cards in their phones, and not all model can use them, the most notable example being iPhones, and still, if the device is lost or stolen you lose everything.

Hence online storage and sharing, especially on on social sites is important for consumers, as they also work as a "backup".

To display photos to a larger audience, TVs or monitors are still better than phones (although they can be the source of the images), and you won't mail your phone to your aunt.

Just, Kodak had really no presence in any of these markets, and in many ways it probably made more money from prints than films - and not surprisingly negative films, and its prints, survived past reversal ones, because there is still some money coming from them.

Cameras are not really suited to be display devices, even for those who will keep on using ILCs, and you'll need more functions to publish images than to access them for display.

It's just like when audio recordings became easily available, the music performance and most of its fruition became separate processes using different devices. Today you don't need a piano in your house so you and your hosts can play and sing, or have people bring their instruments to listen to some music. And no one thought to add recording capabilities to them just so you could bring around your piano and use it to play a recording.

old-pr-pix said:
Smartphones are an equally disruptive technology. Not scientific, but big family gatherings have transitioned from Instamatics and disposable cameras to digital P&S, perhaps a few Rebels, now to smartphones.

How do you explain the Fujifilm Instax sales? Nor photo printers disappeared yet. It looks sometimes a physical artifact still has some value.

And for important events, i.e. weddings, if the hired photographer showed up with a smartphone only I guess he or she would be lynched, and finished by the bride with the wedding cake knife... ;D

It's just a matter of convenience - most people never liked cameras or photography, they just wanted the images. They will use the easiest tool to obtain them. Just, when images becomes really important for any reason, they will pay homage, maybe unconsciously, to skill, performance and quality.
 
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neuroanatomist said:
YAPODFC. ::)

Film to digital = paradigm shift

ILC with mirror to ILC without mirror = different flavor of same product

Good point.

It used to be a film camera was a box to hold film flat and a bit of electronics for the shutter, etc.

Now ILC electronics is based upon the sensor. How the viewfinder works if minor.
 
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9VIII said:
The A7RIII may very well be the best camera that Sony will ever produce, and if it is that means everyone who buys one is getting their money's worth, but it also means as soon as everyone who wants a high tech mirrorless body has the A7RIII, Sony will have completely saturated their market potential.

You must a very clear crystal ball. Not sure what the future holds for Sony, but I suspect that the A7R IV (or what it is called) will top the A7 RIII (at least in some important ways).
 
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Talys said:
Orangutan said:
So you're saying that Canon is so far behind in cutting-edge refrigerator tech, that they'd better release a killer product next year, or they're doomed!

At least that's what understood you to say... :) :P

Absolutely. Canon needs crisper and freezer tech. ;D :-X
I just walked over to my fridge, which is mirrorless and NOT made by canon, got a beer, and will sit back and enjoy the show. Canons lack of ability to come out with a mirrorless fridge means that Canon is DOOMED!!!!
 
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