Canon EF 50mm f/1.2L II Mention [CR2]

While I understand the want for light gear, I have been waiting for a superb fast fifty since forever that I don't care what it weighs. That's not macho show off whatever, I just know that it takes weight to make a great fast lens. I'm more excited about this than when my 200 was on its way in the mail
 
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ahsanford said:
Random Orbits said:
Memdroid said:
Apparently the new 50L is going to be lighter. Which is a HUGE bonus in itself, not that the current version was heavy but just build very solid with a balanced weight.

As long as it delivers top notch performance corner to corner.

Get the Sigma, then. Don't even wait for the next L.

Consider: Canon doesn't do corner to corner anything with it's large aperture primes: of the 24 1.4L II, 35 1.4L, 50 1.2L, as 85 1.2L II, all deliver corners as soft as pillows. I keep getting told: "That's not what these lenses are for." These lenses are about center sharpness / bokeh / draw / color / 'that magical certain something'.

Hence, I'd recommend you go for the Sigma or wait for the non-L IS refresh like I am. Those two lenses will give you corners.

- A

When were the 24 L II, 35L, 50L and 85L II released? 2008, 1998, 2006 and 2006. When did Canon say it started designing lenses for higher resolution sensors? Starting with the 70-200 f/2.8 IS II, which was released in 2010, after all the primes you mentioned. The L lenses are designed to give the highest performance, which includes sharpness and corner performance. Compare to those primes to the zooms of their time (24-70 f/2.8, 24-105 f/4 and 70-200 f/2.8 IS) and the primes definitely performed better.

I see the 50 f/1.8 and f/1.4 replacements being the smaller than the L. The Gaussian design is more compact but gets soft with larger apertures, which is why I think it makes more sense for the non-Ls. The L is already much heavier, so going to a retrofocal design like the Zeiss or Sigma makes more sense.

I've had the 50L for a few years after trying the 50 f/1.4 (inconsistent focus at f/2.8 and larger), and one learns to deal with its quirks (focus shift near MFD [I avoid shooting near MFD], needing a better AF system like a 5DIII for off center AF, etc.). I use it primarily in lowlight indoor situations or going for a shallow DOF outdoors. Otherwise, the new zooms are much more convenient. I thought about the Sigma, but I'd hate to alter the way I shoot because of its AF inconsistencies. I'll decide after seeing how the 50L II stacks up.
 
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Viggo said:
While I understand the want for light gear, I have been waiting for a superb fast fifty since forever that I don't care what it weighs. That's not macho show off whatever, I just know that it takes weight to make a great fast lens. I'm more excited about this than when my 200 was on its way in the mail

And that's great! There's nothing wrong with that, and I wasn't saying otherwise. My problem is with the posturing, "eat your Wheaties" crowd.
 
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Viggo said:
While I understand the want for light gear, I have been waiting for a superb fast fifty since forever that I don't care what it weighs. That's not macho show off whatever, I just know that it takes weight to make a great fast lens. I'm more excited about this than when my 200 was on its way in the mail

This is case in point for why we need two great 50 primes -- one that that is the no-holds-barred performance object that will be heavy & huge and another that's 90% as good in half the package.

The first one is the L and the second one is the one I want. We will eventually get both, but I'd really like the smaller non-L IS first.

And to dovetail on discreet rigs, "that's why mirrorless is small", etc. - those points are valid, but I have no delusions that I am being stealthy with a 5D3 -- I stick out like a sore thumb and I'm fine with that. But as far as I'm concerned, your rig isn't discreet if it needs it's own bag, and most SLRs do. I actually like smaller/lighter gear as it's easier to handle and more likely to come with me when I leave the house, that's all.

- A
 
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ahsanford said:
Viggo said:
While I understand the want for light gear, I have been waiting for a superb fast fifty since forever that I don't care what it weighs. That's not macho show off whatever, I just know that it takes weight to make a great fast lens. I'm more excited about this than when my 200 was on its way in the mail

This is case in point for why we need two great 50 primes -- one that that is the no-holds-barred performance object that will be heavy & huge and another that's 90% as good in half the package.

The first one is the L and the second one is the one I want. We will eventually get both, but I'd really like the smaller non-L IS first.

And to dovetail on discreet rigs, "that's why mirrorless is small", etc. - those points are valid, but I have no delusions that I am being stealthy with a 5D3 -- I stick out like a sore thumb and I'm fine with that. But as far as I'm concerned, your rig isn't discreet if it needs it's own bag, and most SLRs do. I actually like smaller/lighter gear as it's easier to handle and more likely to come with me when I leave the house, that's all.

- A

Absolutely agree. It's the same reason people love the 1740 and the 135 and 85 f1.8, superb performance in a lightweight package and also more affordable.

I kid myself when I want to avoid attention when shooting, I take off the lens hood of the 200 ;D
 
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Sarpedon said:
Viggo said:
While I understand the want for light gear, I have been waiting for a superb fast fifty since forever that I don't care what it weighs. That's not macho show off whatever, I just know that it takes weight to make a great fast lens. I'm more excited about this than when my 200 was on its way in the mail

And that's great! There's nothing wrong with that, and I wasn't saying otherwise. My problem is with the posturing, "eat your Wheaties" crowd.

Absolutely agreed. People are different, that's why there is Powershots and 1d's in the world ;)
 
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Random Orbits said:
When were the 24 L II, 35L, 50L and 85L II released? 2008, 1998, 2006 and 2006. When did Canon say it started designing lenses for higher resolution sensors? Starting with the 70-200 f/2.8 IS II, which was released in 2010, after all the primes you mentioned. The L lenses are designed to give the highest performance, which includes sharpness and corner performance. Compare to those primes to the zooms of their time (24-70 f/2.8, 24-105 f/4 and 70-200 f/2.8 IS) and the primes definitely performed better.

I see the 50 f/1.8 and f/1.4 replacements being the smaller than the L. The Gaussian design is more compact but gets soft with larger apertures, which is why I think it makes more sense for the non-Ls. The L is already much heavier, so going to a retrofocal design like the Zeiss or Sigma makes more sense.

I've had the 50L for a few years after trying the 50 f/1.4 (inconsistent focus at f/2.8 and larger), and one learns to deal with its quirks (focus shift near MFD [I avoid shooting near MFD], needing a better AF system like a 5DIII for off center AF, etc.). I use it primarily in lowlight indoor situations or going for a shallow DOF outdoors. Otherwise, the new zooms are much more convenient. I thought about the Sigma, but I'd hate to alter the way I shoot because of its AF inconsistencies. I'll decide after seeing how the 50L II stacks up.

Designing for higher resolution sensors doesn't necessarily mean that previously designed lenses can't meet the demands of new sensors. I think users of the EF 800/5.6L IS, EF 200/2L IS, 135/2L, 100/2.8L macro IS, TS-E 90/4.5, and MP-E 65/2.8 would agree with me, for instance. These are some of the sharpest lenses Canon produces and they all precede the EF 70-200/2.8L IS II design.

Resolving power at high spatial frequencies is the primary component of "sharpness" in the context of sensors with high pixel density. But I suggest that this should not be the metric by which new lens designs should be measured, because high MTF at high lp/mm is only one aspect of a lens' overall performance, one that is generally only apparent in the image center and in the plane of focus. How a lens produces overall contrast, its field curvature, and the prevalence of chromatic aberrations outside of the plane of focus, are in my opinion very important issues pertaining to the design of fast-aperture lenses.

To see what I mean by this, take the EF 85/1.2L II. It's a great lens, and it actually performs fairly well in terms of center sharpness at high spatial frequencies in the plane of focus when shot wide open. Not as well as an EF 300/2.8L IS II by any means, but for f/1.2, it can resolve a remarkable amount of fine detail. But the chromatic aberration in high-contrast conditions is a killer and the performance outside the plane of focus is problematic. There is always room for improvement. The lens doesn't need to be "sharper"--it needs to be more well-corrected. The two are not quite synonymous.

Regarding the double-Gauss optical design, it's not the question of double-Gauss versus retrofocus that affects sharpness directly. Rather, it is the space considerations of adding corrective elements that drives the design as well as the extent of correction. Another way of thinking about this is that retrofocus designs don't automatically correspond to superior correction. They facilitate the inclusion of more lens elements, which can be used to correct aberrations and/or shorten the effective focal length of the system.
 
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chromophore said:
Random Orbits said:
When were the 24 L II, 35L, 50L and 85L II released? 2008, 1998, 2006 and 2006. When did Canon say it started designing lenses for higher resolution sensors? Starting with the 70-200 f/2.8 IS II, which was released in 2010, after all the primes you mentioned. The L lenses are designed to give the highest performance, which includes sharpness and corner performance. Compare to those primes to the zooms of their time (24-70 f/2.8, 24-105 f/4 and 70-200 f/2.8 IS) and the primes definitely performed better.

I see the 50 f/1.8 and f/1.4 replacements being the smaller than the L. The Gaussian design is more compact but gets soft with larger apertures, which is why I think it makes more sense for the non-Ls. The L is already much heavier, so going to a retrofocal design like the Zeiss or Sigma makes more sense.

I've had the 50L for a few years after trying the 50 f/1.4 (inconsistent focus at f/2.8 and larger), and one learns to deal with its quirks (focus shift near MFD [I avoid shooting near MFD], needing a better AF system like a 5DIII for off center AF, etc.). I use it primarily in lowlight indoor situations or going for a shallow DOF outdoors. Otherwise, the new zooms are much more convenient. I thought about the Sigma, but I'd hate to alter the way I shoot because of its AF inconsistencies. I'll decide after seeing how the 50L II stacks up.

Designing for higher resolution sensors doesn't necessarily mean that previously designed lenses can't meet the demands of new sensors. I think users of the EF 800/5.6L IS, EF 200/2L IS, 135/2L, 100/2.8L macro IS, TS-E 90/4.5, and MP-E 65/2.8 would agree with me, for instance. These are some of the sharpest lenses Canon produces and they all precede the EF 70-200/2.8L IS II design.

Resolving power at high spatial frequencies is the primary component of "sharpness" in the context of sensors with high pixel density. But I suggest that this should not be the metric by which new lens designs should be measured, because high MTF at high lp/mm is only one aspect of a lens' overall performance, one that is generally only apparent in the image center and in the plane of focus. How a lens produces overall contrast, its field curvature, and the prevalence of chromatic aberrations outside of the plane of focus, are in my opinion very important issues pertaining to the design of fast-aperture lenses.

To see what I mean by this, take the EF 85/1.2L II. It's a great lens, and it actually performs fairly well in terms of center sharpness at high spatial frequencies in the plane of focus when shot wide open. Not as well as an EF 300/2.8L IS II by any means, but for f/1.2, it can resolve a remarkable amount of fine detail. But the chromatic aberration in high-contrast conditions is a killer and the performance outside the plane of focus is problematic. There is always room for improvement. The lens doesn't need to be "sharper"--it needs to be more well-corrected. The two are not quite synonymous.

Regarding the double-Gauss optical design, it's not the question of double-Gauss versus retrofocus that affects sharpness directly. Rather, it is the space considerations of adding corrective elements that drives the design as well as the extent of correction. Another way of thinking about this is that retrofocus designs don't automatically correspond to superior correction. They facilitate the inclusion of more lens elements, which can be used to correct aberrations and/or shorten the effective focal length of the system.

The 800, 135, TS-E 45 and MP-E 65 can be much better. Many people now use the 600L II + 1.4x III in favor over the 800L, the Zeiss 135 outclasses the 135L significantly, the TS-E 45 is soft wide open, and the MP-E requires a lot more sharpening and contrast boost than the 100L at 1:1.

My post was responding to Ahsanford's point that Canon's primes are expected to have soft corners. I responded that Canon's newer lenses are designed for better performance including edge/corner sharpness. Ahsanford is expecting the sharpest Canon 50mm prime to be the non L, while I think it makes more sense that the 50L become more similar to the Otus and Sigma due to its larger weight and size already.
 
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At 1.4 it's difficult to nail focus every time with any glass. The DOF is about an inch. If you merely rock your head just slightly as you press the shutter release, you'll move the target. I really haven't had any focus issues with either of mine, and I hand held shoot quite a bit at 1.4. It's not as easy as f2.8 or f4, especially up close to your subject, but if you develop a good technique, it works fine. That said, I'd love to see what Canon does for a gen 2 on the 50.
 
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Random Orbits said:
The 800, 135, TS-E 45 and MP-E 65 can be much better. Many people now use the 600L II + 1.4x III in favor over the 800L, the Zeiss 135 outclasses the 135L significantly, the TS-E 45 is soft wide open, and the MP-E requires a lot more sharpening and contrast boost than the 100L at 1:1.

My post was responding to Ahsanford's point that Canon's primes are expected to have soft corners. I responded that Canon's newer lenses are designed for better performance including edge/corner sharpness. Ahsanford is expecting the sharpest Canon 50mm prime to be the non L, while I think it makes more sense that the 50L become more similar to the Otus and Sigma due to its larger weight and size already.

I didn't mention the TS-E 45mm, but the 90mm instead. I mistakenly wrote f/4.5 when it is a f/2.8 lens, IIRC, so maybe that's the source of the confusion. The TS-E 90mm is exceptionally sharp.

The broader point still stands: just because older lenses weren't designed with 50+ MP full-frame sensors in mind doesn't mean they can't perform exceptionally well. It's not like they all go to **** once a high-resolution sensor is put behind them.

But I do absolutely agree that many Canon fast-aperture primes are "expected" to be soft in the corners. That's not so much because it's Canon, but because many prime lenses in general just don't have corner-to-corner performance unless we're talking about something large, unwieldy, and expensive. I don't know if Canon sees a market for $3-5k fast-aperture primes. People rave about the Otus 55 and 85, but that doesn't mean everyone is actually buying one. The economics and consumer perception for Zeiss (or Sigma for that matter) are different than for Canon. That's not an attempt to make excuses for Canon, who I do think have rested on their laurels with respect to innovation in optical design especially at fast apertures, but it's just economic reality.

In a way, Canon is the 800-pound gorilla that, no matter what it does, can't satisfy everybody. If they make a 50/1.0L II that at f/1.0 outperforms the Otus 55/1.4 at f/2.8, I'd sell a kidney to buy one. But no doubt it would cost something in the range of a luxury sports car and I kinda need that other kidney. All joking aside, the feeling I get is that if Canon makes a 50/1.2L II, someone's going to say "but where's my Otus for $1500?" There's no way to win except by making something for every conceivable demand, but that's just not possible, sadly.
 
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I've read in the past where it seems there is some trade-off between ultimate sharpness and "most pleasing" bokeh. I realize bokeh is a rather subjective issue, but it's been sensed by some that the ART line which is razor sharp, lacks the beauty of the bokeh seen in "lesser" performing (sharpness) glass like the Canon and Nikon. That said, if anyone can produce a corner to corner sharp lens with great blur at large aperture it's Canon. But perhaps the loss of the corners is the sacrifice made for a smaller lens body. Sigma and Otus are both beasts and both have great corners.
 
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chromophore said:
The broader point still stands: just because older lenses weren't designed with 50+ MP full-frame sensors in mind doesn't mean they can't perform exceptionally well. It's not like they all go to **** once a high-resolution sensor is put behind them.

OK, but where did I say that older lenses "go to **** once a high-resolution sensor is put behind them."
 
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Maximilian said:
cayenne said:
I figure do a little time in the gym and eat your Wheaties...and use really really good glass.

:)
To those wanting a smaller, lighter lens it's very often not about how to handle the big weight and having not done the workout but about beeing more descrete, stealthy, convenient and so on.

Ok..why is anyone needing to be discrete and stealthy??
WFT are you taking pictures of?!? :O
 
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Random Orbits said:
My post was responding to Ahsanford's point that Canon's primes are expected to have soft corners. I responded that Canon's newer lenses are designed for better performance including edge/corner sharpness. Ahsanford is expecting the sharpest Canon 50mm prime to be the non L, while I think it makes more sense that the 50L become more similar to the Otus and Sigma due to its larger weight and size already.

RO -- that's a fair point. I have presumed that the 24L/35L/50L/85L designs were not mad in their quest for sharpness and they will always be that way. That could be a terrible assumption on my part. A new 50L could be Otus sharp for all we know. Fair.

Buuuuuuut, on the other hand, the 50 f/1.2L came out 13 years after the 50 f/1.4 and the cheaper lens still outresolved it in many commonly used apertures. This implies that Canon may have deliberately made some compromises with resolution to make something else work well on that 50L design. I can't speculate what was so important or difficult to implement on the 50L, but the 50L is not categorically their sharpest 50, and they knew that when they took it to market.

I'm not saying L standard primes will always have soft corners, but perhaps Canon doesn't feel pros need corner sharpness in a wide aperture prime nearly as much as great color, bokeh, flare control, AF, chromatic aberration control, etc. Sharpness is but one measure of a lens, after all.

- A
 
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ahsanford said:
Random Orbits said:
My post was responding to Ahsanford's point that Canon's primes are expected to have soft corners. I responded that Canon's newer lenses are designed for better performance including edge/corner sharpness. Ahsanford is expecting the sharpest Canon 50mm prime to be the non L, while I think it makes more sense that the 50L become more similar to the Otus and Sigma due to its larger weight and size already.

RO -- that's a fair point. I have presumed that the 24L/35L/50L/85L designs were not mad in their quest for sharpness and they will always be that way. That could be a terrible assumption on my part. A new 50L could be Otus sharp for all we know. Fair.

Buuuuuuut, on the other hand, the 50 f/1.2L came out 13 years after the 50 f/1.4 and the cheaper lens still outresolved it in many commonly used apertures. This implies that Canon may have deliberately made some compromises with resolution to make something else work well on that 50L design. I can't speculate what was so important or difficult to implement on the 50L, but the 50L is not categorically their sharpest 50, and they knew that when they took it to market.

I'm not saying L standard primes will always have soft corners, but perhaps Canon doesn't feel pros need corner sharpness in a wide aperture prime nearly as much as great color, bokeh, flare control, AF, chromatic aberration control, etc. Sharpness is but one measure of a lens, after all.

- A

the 50L was specifically designed with spherical aberration. it is considered a benefit for the out of focus/bokeh quality.
 
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ahsanford said:
Maximilian said:
cayenne said:
I figure do a little time in the gym and eat your Wheaties...and use really really good glass.

:)
To those wanting a smaller, lighter lens it's very often not about how to handle the big weight and having not done the workout but about beeing more descrete, stealthy, convenient and so on.

This. +500. I'll use something 90-95% as good as the best in class if it's half as big, half as heavy and half the cost. I'll take the non-L 50 f/nooneknows IS USM for the win.

- A


+1000


I do a lot of mountaineering/alpine climbing photography, weight is everything! And I ain't got no time for tripods, give me IS AND a fast aperture!
 
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cayenne said:
Maximilian said:
cayenne said:
I figure do a little time in the gym and eat your Wheaties...and use really really good glass.

:)
To those wanting a smaller, lighter lens it's very often not about how to handle the big weight and having not done the workout but about beeing more descrete, stealthy, convenient and so on.


Ok..why is anyone needing to be discrete and stealthy??
WFT are you taking pictures of?!? :O

It's probably asking too much on an internet forum, but can you not act like a gawking middle-schooler, pointing and laughing at someone, making a big "L" sign with your thumb and forefinger? "Eeewww, what a perv!" Seriously, man, grow the hell up.

Why would anyone need to be discrete and stealthy? Ask a street photographer, literally almost any street photographer in the entire world, and they'll tell you it helps. It also helps if you're traveling, or roaming through a not-so-safe neighborhood. It's nice not to be immediately marked as a target for theft, and it's nice when people don't notice you, so you can get candid shots and wait, unobserved, for the right moment.

Try walking around San Juan with a big white telephoto. Try Brixton or Gutte d'Or at night, if you're so sure of yourself.
 
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