Canon not going global shutter with next round of EOS R camera bodies

[EOS 4 Life]

Absolutely, Sony is not the first to emphasize the top capabilities of its devices, but, it seems to me, it is the absolute winner (holds the crown ) in creating specifications that are achievable only theoretically and on paper, but unattainable in reality.

They even have an asterisk on the mode dial.

 

[EOS 4 Life]

I've been pining for a global shutter for a long time, because I often shoot equine sports in covered but open-sided arenas. A global shutter would make it much easier to make sure the background doesn't get blown out, without having to crank the flashes up higher and use AF-hurting ND filters.

I do not think it would.
Maybe, the higher shutter speed would but that would not require a global shutter.
As of right now, it does not look like the a9 III even handles higher shutter speeds well without a lot of light.

 

[stetson628]

I do not think it would.
Maybe, the higher shutter speed would but that would not require a global shutter.
As of right now, it does not look like the a9 III even handles higher shutter speeds well without a lot of light.

A higher shutter speed would prevent the background from blowing out. At ISO 100, f/2.8, a shutter speed of 1/500th would be enough, but 1/1000th would reduce motion blur (which can happen with daylight bleeding in from the sides, or when flash-lit action happens against a sunlit background).

But with my R5, I'm limited to 1/250th shutter speed, which isn't enough to prevent background blowout on very bright days. So a global shutter would allow the high shutter speed needed, while still allowing the strobes to work. If the A9 III has more limited dynamic range, that's a definite negative, but it would just mean an even higher shutter speed would be necessary, which wouldn't be a problem as long as it's not so fast that the flash efficiency drops too much. (I'm interested to see how fast Profoto D2's can sync at before losing much effectiveness.)

 

[divinshire]

id take more MP than a global shutter anyday.

the notion that a global shutter is going to magically transform someones photography is ridiculous. you can take great pictures on most cameras if you actually know what you're doing.

More megapixels on the other hand, comes with many benefits such as ability to crop in, and being able to print at a larger scales whilst retaining detail.

all this shutter talk is overrated if you ask me!

 

[neuroanatomist]

But with my R5, I'm limited to 1/250th shutter speed, which isn't enough to prevent background blowout on very bright days.

The typical solution is HSS, though that often requires additional flash units to compensate for the power loss. But you’d get your 1/1000 s, or higher if needed.

 

[snapshot]

Consider that the ratio of lenses to bodies sold is somewhere between 1.6 - 1.8, and also consider entry-level kits make up most of the unit sales, and that the most popular kits are 2-lens kits. In other words, the installed base of camera users comprises a majority of people who own only the camera and the 1-2 lenses that came with it, and a minority of people who own >2 lenses. That means inertia is much less of a factor in the market than you're suggesting.

If inertia were a major factor, Nikon's market share would not have done this:

• 2017 – 24.9%
• 2018 – 20.2%
• 2019 – 18.6%
• 2020 – 13.7%
• 2021 – 11.3%

Not sure I understand.
1. Folks who buy kits may not be on a fast refresh cycle. They are probably happy with the pictures they take until the camera or lens malfunctions. I see lots of folks with digital rebels and the like, not sure how old the cameras are but there are lots of them. The cameras seem to last pretty good and old cameras still in use don't help market share. When in the market, i think sales price will have a lot to do with what they buy.
2. Users of better lenses might be more the inertia type. I saw a surprising number of EF 24-70 f/2.8 L and EF 16-35 F/4 L attached to what appeared to be R5/R6 when I was out and about this summer. Replacing those lenses plus maybe some if its friends adds to the cost of switching systems. Nikon didn't really have anything better than D750/D850 until Z9/Z8 so i would expect their numbers to improve some going forward as Nikoners buy into improved autofocus methods. I know I held onto my 5Div while I read the specs on the Sony A9 because of my lens collection.

 

[snapshot]

The typical solution is HSS, though that often requires additional flash units to compensate for the power loss. But you’d get your 1/1000 s, or higher if needed.

I have been using VND EF to RF adapter to reduce shutter speed and get background exposure, and then i can use a standard flash for foreground exposure.

 

[gmon750]

Here we go again. Just like with the R3, same old story. Sony is outsmarting Canon in many ways. The R3 would have been named the R1. But Canon could not do it after Sony came up with a 50mp camera a few weeks before launch. So Canon named it R3. I am 100% sure about that. Now they fail again. Sony releases an insane camera with global shutter, just a few months before Canon is launching the R1 without global shutter. So what will canon do? Name it R2 and keep pro users ignorant for another 4 years? Hahahaha. So sad. But I’ll stick to my R6 mark II bodies for a another year or two. Canon, come on! Step up your game!
And second reason not to buy this R1 or R2 is because I am sure Canon will charge an astronomic price for it. Like we know Canon.
7000-8000 euro’s will be the price range.
For a camera that is already outdated the moment it hits the market. So sad.

And go ahead, call me a troll, that’s fine.
The truth is, that I am just a very disappointed Canon pro user for many many years.
Give us the R1 with global shutter and 50mp for 4990 and I will buy two of them. But I am affraid they cannot keep up with their competitors.

Folks (trolls) like you really are good at contaminating a discussion.

You make it sound like this global-shutter announcement suddenly makes all prior cameras obsolete and inoperable. That somehow all photos taken with other cameras are no longer viable in quality. That is absolutely not the case.


I think some day all cameras will have global shutters. It's inevitable, and with no physical shutter, one less item to mechanically fail. For now, I couldn't care less that Sony is "the first" with such a system. Let them have it. It does not in any way reduce my preference for Canon gear. There are compromises with this camera, and even if I were in the Sony camp with the money I still would not buy this camera until it's been baked in the oven for longer.


Your post just reeks of a troll rant of a wannabe photographer. If you "need" global shutter and all the best cameras of years past weren't good enough, the problem is not with the camera, but you.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Not sure I understand.
1. Folks who buy kits may not be on a fast refresh cycle. They are probably happy with the pictures they take until the camera or lens malfunctions. I see lots of folks with digital rebels and the like, not sure how old the cameras are but there are lots of them. The cameras seem to last pretty good and old cameras still in use don't help market share. When in the market, i think sales price will have a lot to do with what they buy.
2. Users of better lenses might be more the inertia type. I saw a surprising number of EF 24-70 f/2.8 L and EF 16-35 F/4 L attached to what appeared to be R5/R6 when I was out and about this summer. Replacing those lenses plus maybe some if its friends adds to the cost of switching systems. Nikon didn't really have anything better than D750/D850 until Z9/Z8 so i would expect their numbers to improve some going forward as Nikoners buy into improved autofocus methods. I know I held onto my 5Div while I read the specs on the Sony A9 because of my lens collection.

I was responding to the idea that 'wrong decisions today could take years to play out in the market', because people have lots of lenses and release cycles are long. My point was that the market (in terms of units sold, which is how everyone but Sony counts it) is driven mainly by buyers of less expensive cameras and lenses, the base of the pyramid so to speak. That means the market can shift fairly quickly, because most people have a limited investment in a system.

You're correct that cameras last a long time. People keep using them until they fail, then buy a new one...usually with a new 1-2 kit lenses. There is brand inertia (someone using a Rebel T4i will buy an R50 or R100 when it fails, because they're used to Canon). But that only goes so far. Nikon lost 15% of the market in 4 years, including ~6% in a single year, pretty much all to Sony.

The point is, those changes are not really driven by people like you and me. For those with several lenses and possibly more than one body, there’s a lot of inertia. People on this forum don’t represent the market as a whole.

Also note that ‘market share’ is an annual thing. ‘Installed base’ is different, and changes much more slowly (Canon, with nearly 50% market share every year for the past decade, probably has an installed base of 70-80% – most ILCs in use today have a Canon badge (well, most owned…maybe a lot of them sit on a shelf while the buyers take pics with their phones).

 

[stetson628]

The typical solution is HSS, though that often requires additional flash units to compensate for the power loss. But you’d get your 1/1000 s, or higher if needed.

I do use HSS for outdoor portraits, all the time. I often have to take the outer diffuser off the softbox to get enough power out of the B10+, which makes it more susceptible to being blown over, and gives a harsher look than I sometimes want.

For equine sports, well, I tried it a few times, with my 1000 watt D2's, using Telezoom reflectors. I was able to squelch the background, but I had to go up to ISO 800, so I got noisier photos - which would be an acceptable trade in some cases, for an overall aesthetically better photo (especially with modern noise reduction). It was also much quieter, and the flashes were less noticeable, which is nice for horses, which can spook from the noise and flashes.

The big problems arose from using HSS at high power levels in burst mode (I usually shoot about 6 fps in 3 shot bursts so the flashes can keep up) - overheating becomes an issue, flash bulbs wear out much, much quicker (this experiment cost me 2 or 3 Profoto bulbs, which otherwise seem on track to last a few years even under my heavy use), and at one event, the flashes in HSS kept tripping the infrared timer that goes on and off when the horses run in and out! I tested it with test flashes, then turned HSS off and the problem went away.

So yeah, I'm still pining for Global Shutter. Like I said in a previous post, I won't sacrifice much resolution and IQ for it (or might just use it as a secondary camera for those troublesome arenas), but hopefully the technology will advance and catch up at least to where the R5 is today.

 

[Quarkcharmed]

I don't know if anyone has tabulated them.

The measured base ISO of the EOS R is actually 66. You can check DxOMark (e.g. for the EOS R), measurements tab, ISO sensitivity and hover over the ISO 100 point to see the measured value. Bill Cliff (photonstophotos) gets his source data from DxOMark.

No, Bill Claff gets his data (source raw files) from the users of respective cameras.

 

[john1970]

I would be perfectly content if both the R1 and R5Mk2 have fast readout stacked sensors with rolling shutter.

 

[neuroanatomist]

No, Bill Claff gets his data (source raw files) from the users of respective cameras.

My mistake. Scrolling down, he does have a similar set of PDR data with more cameras that are derived from DxOMark, but he indicates his own data are generally more accurate.

Notes:
For more cameras (derived from DxOMark data) see DxOMark Photographic Dynamic Range Chart. However, data on this chart, when available, is considered to be more accurate.

 

[canonmike]

My goodness, people, already on the attack or defense of Canon, before we even have the R1 body to praise or trash, your choice. In recent years, Canon's products have pretty much spoken for themselves and I just don't see where the sometimes angry vitrial has alienated me from Canon or caused me to rush over to the Sony camp. Kudos to Sony for their GS offering in the A9iii. Just another piece of tech you can choose to buy or not and I know there are a few Canon owners that have some Sony gear, as well. As a long time Canon user, I don't find the upcoming A9iii makes obsolete the thousands of dollars of Canon gear I own and in no way causes me to feel the necessity of defending Canon, especially defense of a camera body that has not yet even been announced. But guess what, my best in class RF glass produces amazing photos when attached to several different R bodies and I fully know they will continue to work flawlessly on any new R body, with whatever shutter and sensor it ultimately will have. I am happy for those who embrace Sony on whatever level they choose and find that the excitement Sony's latest announcement has generated bodes well for the continued existence and proliferation of mirrorless equipment across all manufacturers. Look at Nikon. Just a few short years ago, the YT community was close to writing them off and look at their great offerings now. I firmly believe that if Sony hadn't pushed Canon and Nikon with their mirrorless offerings, there would be no such thing as a Canon R or a Nikon Zed. For our sake, I hope they keep the competition strong and healthy for years to come. I hope you get some great shots tomorrow, using whatever brand equipment you prefer. In my sixty some years of photography, I have never had a client that demanded I use a certain brand of camera and most of all, it still puts a big smile on my face when I see how pleased a client is with the photos I provide him, knowing not and caring not what camera brand I shot them with. Not once, have I ever had to explain to a client why I use Canon gear.

 

[DhlcadR6]

My goodness, people, already on the attack or defense of Canon, before we even have the R1 body to praise or trash, your choice. In recent years, Canon's products have pretty much spoken for themselves and I just don't see where the sometimes angry vitrial has alienated me from Canon or caused me to rush over to the Sony camp. Kudos to Sony for their GS offering in the A9iii. Just another piece of tech you can choose to buy or not and I know there are a few Canon owners that have some Sony gear, as well.

As a long time Canon user, I don't find the upcoming A9iii makes obsolete the thousands of dollars of Canon gear I own and in no way causes me to feel the necessity of defending Canon, especially defense of a camera body that has not yet even been announced. But guess what, my best in class RF glass produces amazing photos when attached to several different R bodies and I fully know they will continue to work flawlessly on any new R body, with whatever shutter and sensor it ultimately will have. I am happy for those who embrace Sony on whatever level they choose and find that the excitement Sony's latest announcement has generated bodes well for the continued existence and proliferation of mirrorless equipment across all manufacturers.

Look at Nikon. Just a few short years ago, the YT community was close to writing them off and look at their great offerings now. I firmly believe that if Sony hadn't pushed Canon and Nikon with their mirrorless offerings, there would be no such thing as a Canon R or a Nikon Zed. For our sake, I hope they keep the competition strong and healthy for years to come. I hope you get some great shots tomorrow, using whatever brand equipment you prefer. In my sixty some years of photography, I have never had a client that demanded I use a certain brand of camera and most of all, it still puts a big smile on my face when I see how pleased a client is with the photos I provide him, knowing not and caring not what camera brand I shot them with. Not once, have I ever had to explain to a client why I use Canon gear.

I've had a hard time reading your text....I adjust it for everyone

 

[EOS 4 Life]

I would be perfectly content if both the R1 and R5Mk2 have fast readout stacked sensors with rolling shutter.

If the R1 does not get a global shutter then I am not convinced that the R5 II will have a stacked sensor.

 

[Quack]

I have to admit, I thought this was funny! what's even funnier in my opinion is how Canon is graded vs everyone else. for example. Canon gets knocked for having the Canon R (the Original R) and it's only 33 megapixels, and people complained about the Camera and megapixel count and compared it to the Nikon Z7 and Sony A7RIV, yet when Sony Came out with the A7IV with 33 megapixels, everyone praised Sony and stated that was the perfect resolution needed for the vast majority of users (double standard). Then when the Canon R3 came out, and after that the Sony A1 came out, no one said hey... let's compare the Canon R3 to the 2 year old Sony A9 mark ii! They said, lets compare it to the Sony A1, despite the specs favored the Canon R3 against the A9 mark ii and the Canon R5 held it's own against the Sony A1 in every aspect (unless you wanted to shoot 30 fps to show everyone you could, or you're a sports shooter). Then Sony Comes out with the a9 Mark iii and what's the first thing everyone does? they talk about Global Shutter like it hasn't existed since 2015 and doesn't have it's draw backs, Talks it up like they are going to buy a few of them at $6,000 and NEVER have an issue because the camera is perfect, and the funniest part, they compare it to a 2 year old Canon R3 and talk about how it blows it away! It's hysterical honestly! people are willing to compare things where Sony has the advantage and claim their in the lead without ever using Sony's equipment and without talking about the drawbacks. it's like everyone drinks the marketing Koolaid that Sony produces and forgets the steps that Canon is taking and has took over the years. it's like everyone is ignoring all the glass and functionality that Canon offers in their systems. Don't get me wrong... I love Sony (Nikon and others) as well, but I seriously think it's funny when I read comments of double standards and when people say Sony is blowing away from Canon, when in reality, in 2 years when Canon comes out with an R3 mark ii or some other camera with Global shutter, NO one is going to be comparing that camera to the a9 Mark iii, they will be saying... what is Sony going to come out with next! that's a double standard!

You can be sure those same Sony trolls that bashed the R3 for having only 24 MPs are now saying that 24 MPs is the sweet spot and more than that is certainly not necessary. Isn't it time we warned and then banned those that intentionally provoke this kind of brand warfare? Aren't we all tired of those whose intention is to cause more divisiveness? Especially with propaganda and lies? They take over internet forums and dominate many a YouTube or other comments section. Let's stop it already.

 

[DhlcadR6]

I agree. I did a few IMSA races this year, I could count Nikon on 2 hands, Sony maybe 100-200, but Canon? There were more 400mm f/2.8 and 300mm f/2.8 lenses there than the other two companies bodies and lenses. I just did a fashion show 3 days ago, there was 1 Nikon, no sony and 75 Canons.

For all who claim Nikon and Sony have better cameras/lenses, I can go to the closest park or nature preserve, walk an hour and observe the local bird enthusiasts and see 90% or greater Canon. Why is that? Better? Faster? Cheaper? More available? I believe it is because Canon just works better to get what they want.

For those who knows how to use their gear, the ones they're using is more than capable already. NikSony trolls probably going to say Z9/Z8/a1/a7r5 can

Those customers will never understand Sony's advantages ;-)

SUPER-INFERIOR&SLOW CF A is advantage. Approved by me

Also note that ‘market share’ is an annual thing. ‘Installed base’ is different, and changes much more slowly (Canon, with nearly 50% market share every year for the past decade, probably has an installed base of 70-80% – most ILCs in use today have a Canon badge (well, most owned…maybe a lot of them sit on a shelf while the buyers take pics with their phones).

Look on the positive side, those who doesn't own Canon gears seems to be more concern&vocal about Canon than Canon themselves. Canon can save the cost of marketing/design consultant

And by history records, Canon acts faster than our internet goldfish braincells remembers.

Within in 2yrs:
1.Canon R(2018) has no IBIS, no dual SD, no superior AF system over Sony a7 3rd generation > R5+R6 (2020) All done
2. 1DX3 is "slow" & not mirrorless > R3(2021)
3. R5 R6(2020) heat management is too conservative thus the fake overheat > Firmware release in 2021 to relief the issue. All Canon's RF cameras after are not conservative on heat management. R7 R6ii R3 are better than equivalent competitors
4. Viltrox/CN 3rd parties in 2022 opens about Canon issuing legal letter(despite truth or not) and cause a shxtstorm trashtalk on Canon till this date > 2023 Canon softens up about the 3rd party issue and welcomes 3rd party to approach Canon if they are willing to.

For 3yrs:
RF100-400, 100-500L, 600/800 f11 (2020) aren't enough for birders > RF 200-800 (2023)

For comparison I put some of PanaNikSony's track records.
1. Old Sony menus since a7(2013) haven't changed until a7S3(2020). 7yrs
2. Panasonic has no reliable AF tracking since S1(2019) > S5ii(2023) is partially sorted 4yrs
3. Z6/Z7(2018) has worse AF tracking than DSLR > Z9(2021) showed promising improvements. For mid-range it's Zf this year. 3~5yrs
4. Sony LEGENDARY 92.1k LCD from A900(2008) > a7iv (2021) finally ends by upgrade to 1.04M LCD 13yrs
5. Sony 24-70GM & 70-200GM (2016) was not showing significant quality improvement over EF/F mount > GM2 in 2022 6yrs

 

[neuroanatomist]

Within in 2yrs:
1.Canon R(2018) has no IBIS, no dual SD, no superior AF system over Sony a7 3rd generation > R5+R6 (2020) All done
2. 1DX3 is "slow" & not mirrorless > R3(2021)
3. R5 R6(2020) heat management is too conservative thus the fake overheat > Firmware release in 2021 to relief the issue. All Canon's RF cameras after are not conservative on heat management. R7 R6ii R3 are better than equivalent competitors
4. Viltrox/CN 3rd parties in 2022 opens about Canon issuing legal letter(despite truth or not) and cause a shxtstorm trashtalk on Canon till this date > 2023 Canon softens up about the 3rd party issue and welcomes 3rd party to approach Canon if they are willing to.

For 3yrs:
RF100-400, 100-500L, 600/800 f11 (2020) aren't enough for birders > RF 200-800 (2023)

For comparison I put some of PanaNikSony's track records.
1. Old Sony menus since a7(2013) haven't changed until a7S3(2020). 7yrs
2. Panasonic has no reliable AF tracking since S1(2019) > S5ii(2023) is partially sorted 4yrs
3. Z6/Z7(2018) has worse AF tracking than DSLR > Z9(2021) showed promising improvements. For mid-range it's Zf this year. 3~5yrs
4. Sony LEGENDARY 92.1k LCD from A900(2008) > a7iv (2021) finally ends by upgrade to 1.04M LCD 13yrs
5. Sony 24-70GM & 70-200GM (2016) was not showing significant quality improvement over EF/F mount > GM2 in 2022 6yrs

Blah blah blah but GLOBAL SHUTTER.



(said the SoNikon troll)

 

[LSXPhotog]

As nice as it would be to see a global shutter announcement from Canon as a quick response, I don't believe we're close to that yet. I would love to see the R1 be a "gloves off" kind of camera that doesn't hold back features arbitrarily.

The R3 is still a very formidable camera against the A9III and has easily been the best camera I have owned. There are some firmware polishes that Canon could do to the existing camera that would improve that experience even further. While it won't have a magical global shutter, it's still surprisingly well-matched against the A9III. (Wait, the A9III can't record 240p 1080p but the R3 can with autofocus?! What?)

...perhaps the next R3 model will get a global shutter? Until then, the R3 puts in work every day for both photo/video and I still plan to buy an R1 to replace the R5. Maybe some people might switch to Sony as a result of this? Do those people really believe that camera will make their work look better?