Is it finally happening? Canon RF 50mm f/1.4 USM [CR1]

CIPA is - at least for my uses - pretty useless. The R3 is rated at 860 shots/battery charge (in "power saving" mode), but I've gotten 4000 shots on an LP-E19 battery as I tend to chimp very little and shoot bursts (action).

The problem with CIPA is that it defines a single and very specific order of events: take picture (w/wo flash), chimp, turn on/off, etc. It's like measuring the the mileage of a car on a very specific road, but you don't drive that road at all.
I think that it is generally agreed that CIPA would only represent a photographer's usage if they use it like CIPA :)
There is no alternative though so at least it is a common measure as there isn't anything else. OEMs may be able to optimise for CIPA results but Canon hasn't (or doesn't want to) do this. Fudging the figures - a la VW/fuel efficiency - would hurt the brand far more than low CIPA results generally
 
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the metric is useful for determining the efficiency of the camera/car relative to the rest of the competition.
If we used it as CIPA. But nobody does.
I think that it is generally agreed that CIPA would only represent a photographer's usage if they use it like CIPA :)
There is no alternative though so at least it is a common measure as there isn't anything else. OEMs may be able to optimise for CIPA results but Canon hasn't (or doesn't want to) do this. Fudging the figures - a la VW/fuel efficiency - would hurt the brand far more than low CIPA results generally
I'm at the point that I'm not sure fudging would hurt anything, because CIPA is useless to begin with: The 1DX is rated for 1120 shots at 23C and the R3 at 440-860 shots. But for my uses, they get very similar "shotage" - roughly 4000.

When I was a kid, the cars weren't reported with a single milage number, but three numbers: residential (50 km/), 'country roads' (80km/h) and highway (110km/h). You could then use that to gauge what fuel efficiency that you were be likely to get from the car, depending on your general driving pattern.

CIPA (and fuel efficiency) numbers are like a fruit salad, but you have little or no chance in looking into what the components of that fruit salad is.

My previous car had a better fuel economy rating than my current car, but when I drive, I get a better fuel economy in the new car - mostly because I avoid driving in residential areas where there are a lot of start/stop due to traffic lights and other vehicles.
 
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I'm at the point that I'm not sure fudging would hurt anything, because CIPA is useless to begin with: The 1DX is rated for 1120 shots at 23C and the R3 at 440-860 shots. But for my uses, they get very similar "shotage" - roughly 4000.
I find that perplexing because the R3 consumes a lot more power unless you turn off IBIS and are using the backscreen for both cameras.
 
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koenkooi

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I find that perplexing because the R3 consumes a lot more power unless you turn off IBIS and are using the backscreen for both cameras.
If the R3 takes less effort to get the shot due to better/faster/etc AF+EVF you might get the same number of shots, but spend less time looking through the EVF.
That is a wildly optimistic viewpoint, I'd love to have R3 owners weigh in on that!
 
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@koenkooi and @neuroanatomist are close to the mark, I'd say. I generally don't shoot 30fps burst, but "only" at 15fps and short bursts (but there can be several 2-3-4 bursts close to each other).

When I shoot motorcycle racing, there's always another motorcycle coming into the corner I'm shooting at, so there really isn't any downtime time to chimp (only between sessions). Because of that, I sort and cull images after the event.

As examples of this, I checked a bit of data from two events this summer:

1) MotoGP at TT Assen in June. While I've deleted most from Friday, I can see that I shot image 6731 at 10:16 and image 9118 at 15:34, so that's at least 2388 images in 5h18min - that's 7.5 images/minute on average (as I recall the full count that day was around 2700).

2) Airshow. I shot around 4500 images at a local airshow 3 weeks ago (Friday evening + most of Saturday) and changed battery when the indicator started blinking at me (at 9%). I think it was around the 4300 image mark.

Bottom line is that the CIPA use-case is far off what my 'normal' use-case is, so it's not a good gauge for me. My feeling (and this is a gut-feeling, as I do not have any data to back this up with) is that while CIPA method (shoot, chimp, turn off/on) maybe was representative of how cameras were used previously, with the increased FPS and storage available today (and more users have never used film cameras), it is less representative.

It might be more representative if CIPA created a couple of "user profiles": landscape, family, action, event, and give shot estimates for those profiles.
Shooting landscapes has an entirely approach than action has: in the first power consumption is likely dominated by EVF and screen consumption, whereas action is about shooting and storing a lot of images and little-to-no screen time.
 
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I have no idea, but I'm sure there's a good business case for it. Could be that the EF 50/1.4 still sells well enough. Could be that their data suggest giving buyers a choice between an inexpensive lens and an expensive lens is more profitable overall than offering a mid-level option (that does seem to be their general strategy). Could be that they plan to make an RF 50/1.4 but they've prioritized other lenses. Could be they just really don't like @ahsanford and their corporate strategy is intended to make him suffer.
In many types of markets, the supplier gives you three option: the obviously too-cheap option (f/1.8) , the obviously too-expensive option (f/1.2L), and the "this is the option we'd like you to purchase" option (f/1.4).

I wouldn't be surprised if this is what we see with the EF 50mm. So while the f/1.4 do have certain problems, the other two options are 'too far way' for them to consider, inside the Canon universe. Keeping Third Party auto-focus lenses out the RF universe will be a priority for Canon, I think.

So if an RF 50mm f/1.4 becomes "too good", it will cannibalize too much of the RF 50mm f/1.2L revenues and profit to be interesting to Canon. So my takeaway from this is that if we see an RF 50mm f/1.4, it won't be that much better than the EF version - simply to protect the f/1.2L profits.
 
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In many types of markets, the supplier gives you three option: the obviously too-cheap option (f/1.8) , the obviously too-expensive option (f/1.2L), and the "this is the option we'd like you to purchase" option (f/1.4).
I'm not sure that makes sense. Rather, I would think that any product at any price level would be intended to provide an appropriate return on investment and be profitable. Consider that what you call the 'obviously too-cheap option (f/1.8)' is always among the top-selling lenses...precisely because the cost is low. If Canon wanted people to buy an f/1.4 version instead, they would raise the price of the f/1.8 or not offer it at all.

IMO, it's about matching offerings to the market demand. For some products, it makes sense to have more offerings (e.g. standard zooms, where there are four options ranging from the 24-105/4-7.1 at $400 to the 28-70/2 at $2900. For others, it makes sense to have three options, or two, or one. How many 24mm TS-E lens versions do you need? Probably not more than one.
 
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SwissFrank

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> This could be a nice lens to roll out modern linear focus motors into the RF lineup. No more STM lenses outside of the sub-$500 price point please!

It sounds like Canon Rumors Guy is assuming the 50/1.4 would be over $500 :-(

Basically there's two ways a 50/1.4 design can go:

1) old-school: double Gaussian design as used from like the 1930s to the present day, in ALL the EF 50s and in the RF50/1.8. A group of 3-4 lenses is followed by a similar looking but reversed 3-4 lenses. Look at a few and they're easy to recognize. These are small, cheap, lightweight, no real surprise, but not awesome sharpness. Though that said, the RF50/1.8 is significantly better than any of the EFs I had (and I had 1.0 1.2 1.4 and the MkI pro 1.8)

2) new-school: a lens formula that doesn't look anything like double Gaussian. These are like the Leica 50/2.0 APO ASPH, Zeiss 55/1.4, and RF50/1.2. These will be much bigger, more expensive, heavy, have surprising good points AND bad points, and probably awesome sharpness.

A new-school 50/1.4 could be almost the size of the 50/1.2, and almost the price. If it's smaller, it will then have the American-football-shaped highlights in the corners and the massive vignetting. If it's cheaper, it's probably not going to be as sharp.

An old-school one might be as similar to the EF50/1.4 as the RF50/1.8 is to the EF50/1.8's. In other words substantially improved even if not setting records.

I think I'd prefer old school. What might make sense is for Canon to do one and also license another firm to do the other. It's such an important lens I could see getting both, actually.
 
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SwissFrank

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In many types of markets, the supplier gives you three option: the obviously too-cheap option (f/1.8) , the obviously too-expensive option (f/1.2L), and the "this is the option we'd like you to purchase" option (f/1.4).
When Canon introduced the EF lineup, the 1.0 and 1.8 were the initial versions, both professional-quality build. After 2-3 years they finally introduced the 50/1.4, just as this time. I believe Canon actually WANTS everyone to buy a 1.2 and/or a 1.8 NOW, so they have something to shoot with until the 1.4 comes out, and THEN buy a 50/1.4 AS WELL once that comes out.

Actually Canon also did this with the 85s: 85/1.8 and 1.2 came out quickly, and all through the 90s I wished there was an 85/1.4. It was the one Nikon lens I wished I had. Then they finally made one but I wasn't shooting for a few years in there so I never tried it.
 
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SteveC

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I feel like canon needs to decide what the gold ring means for RF mount. Red ring means what it means, but the gold rings were always subpar. The 85 was quirky with terrible chromatic aberration. The 50 was too soft for modern sensors and the focus left a lot to be desired.

Ironically, one of my first lenses was the 100mm macro (no IS) with the gold ring. I'm still using it, in fact it's one of my favorite lenses.

When I decided to expand the lineup (GAS attack) I decided (not knowing what the gold ring stood for) to try the 50 1.4. And the 85mm 1.8. I find myself using the 85mm a fair amount and the 50mm less often, though I haven't really given it a good workout. So I'd have to say, for me at least, the gold ring worked out well 2 out of 3 times. Will they set the world on fire? No. But they do well for what they cost.
 
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When I decided to expand the lineup (GAS attack) I decided (not knowing what the gold ring stood for) to try the 50 1.4. And the 85mm 1.8. I find myself using the 85mm a fair amount and the 50mm less often, though I haven't really given it a good workout. So I'd have to say, for me at least, the gold ring worked out well 2 out of 3 times. Will they set the world on fire? No. But they do well for what they cost.
The 85/1.8 was one of my first lenses – I started with the T1i/500D and since I learned in my film SLR days lens > body, I bought the camera as body-only and got the EF-S 17-55/2.8 instead of the kit lens, and bought the 85/1.8 at the same time. It's a great little lens, the only problem is some wicked purple fringing.
 
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Jethro

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I'm not sure that makes sense. Rather, I would think that any product at any price level would be intended to provide an appropriate return on investment and be profitable. Consider that what you call the 'obviously too-cheap option (f/1.8)' is always among the top-selling lenses...precisely because the cost is low. If Canon wanted people to buy an f/1.4 version instead, they would raise the price of the f/1.8 or not offer it at all.

IMO, it's about matching offerings to the market demand. For some products, it makes sense to have more offerings (e.g. standard zooms, where there are four options ranging from the 24-105/4-7.1 at $400 to the 28-70/2 at $2900. For others, it makes sense to have three options, or two, or one. How many 24mm TS-E lens versions do you need? Probably not more than one.
It's a complicated question, but there probably is a rational business / economic basis for keeping (using the lens example) a range of relatively low volume (and low profit) selling lenses in the portfolio. Maybe because, to the type of consumer you are targeting, having a range of specialist lenses available, is important, whether they actually buy them or not, and without which they won't buy into the system to start with. For the lower-$ lenses, these tend to be kit-oriented, and sold to people who may not buy another IL (or maybe only 1 or 2 lower / medium price ones). For the buyers of higher $ value bodies, a bigger range of lenses is needed - including the high end (big $s but presumably with a healthy profit margin), but also mid-range specialist lenses they may want the option to acquire / replace in the future.

There is an economic concept called 'cross elasticity of demand', whereby the price (or in this case availability) of one product - say a low selling mid-range 'specialist' lens - affects the demand for another product - say a high-end high-$ lens, or even a camera body. It's pretty well known that many cars these days are sold for minimal if any profit margins, on the basis that there will be ongoing super profits made from things like spare parts, financing via usurious in-house finance companies, ongoing servicing via affiliated dealers with exclusive access to software which can attach to the the vehicle's computer controls etc etc. All speculation obviously, but I suspect this sort of thing plays a part in development and production decisions for Canon.
 
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There is an economic concept called 'cross elasticity of demand', whereby the price (or in this case availability) of one product - say a low selling mid-range 'specialist' lens - affects the demand for another product - say a high-end high-$ lens, or even a camera body. It's pretty well known that many cars these days are sold for minimal if any profit margins, on the basis that there will be ongoing super profits made from things like spare parts, financing via usurious in-house finance companies, ongoing servicing via affiliated dealers with exclusive access to software which can attach to the the vehicle's computer controls etc etc. All speculation obviously, but I suspect this sort of thing plays a part in development and production decisions for Canon.
I think any company has sales, it is some form of this concept. This almost always happens: I learn about the sale, so I look at what is available, but the item I really want is not on sale and I feel a big temptation to buy it anyway.
 
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Jethro

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I think any company has sales, it is some form of this concept. This almost always happens: I learn about the sale, so I look at what is available, but the item I really want is not on sale and I feel a big temptation to buy it anyway.
That example's a little more nefarious - like when a shop advertises in a big way a SALE! of Canon lenses - 30% OFF!, and you quickly work out there were only about two specimens available which went in the first 30 seconds, but you have turned up there (physically or online) psyched up to buy, and your attention turns to some other similar attractive lenses which are not really discounted at all, and ...
 
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In many types of markets, the supplier gives you three option: the obviously too-cheap option (f/1.8) , the obviously too-expensive option (f/1.2L), and the "this is the option we'd like you to purchase" option (f/1.4).

I wouldn't be surprised if this is what we see with the EF 50mm. So while the f/1.4 do have certain problems, the other two options are 'too far way' for them to consider, inside the Canon universe. Keeping Third Party auto-focus lenses out the RF universe will be a priority for Canon, I think.

So if an RF 50mm f/1.4 becomes "too good", it will cannibalize too much of the RF 50mm f/1.2L revenues and profit to be interesting to Canon. So my takeaway from this is that if we see an RF 50mm f/1.4, it won't be that much better than the EF version - simply to protect the f/1.2L profits.
Some users don’t want the RF 50mm f1.8 due to the STM motor or they feel optically it doesn’t suit their needs. Simultaneously the 50mm f1.2 RF is too large, too heavy and too expensive for them as well so they own neither. So a potentially smaller, lighter option at f1.4 is what they would buy if Canon made one. I suspect for very reasons is why Sony made a 50mm f1.4 GM because so many users practically begged them for one. Sigma also released a 50mm f1.4 DG DN art which has very very similar performance to the GM while being slightly larger but much much cheaper.

Also I think if Canon did make such a lens they should make the best 50mm f1.4 they can which would be an alternative premium option to the 50mm f1.2 RF.
 
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I own a Sigma EF 50mm 1.4 Art and bought a Canon RF 50mm 1.8. Canon RF 50mm 1.8 was just horrible to be honest and I just returned it. Sigma is too bulky and heavy and with mount-adapter it gets even worse.

I can't wait to Canon launch a RF 50mm 1.4 USM in a more compact package with a OK autofocus motor (USM) and I would love to be weather sealed, but probably it will not.

Hope also it is launched this month!
 
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SwissFrank

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I own a Sigma EF 50mm 1.4 Art and bought a Canon RF 50mm 1.8. Canon RF 50mm 1.8 was just horrible to be honest and I just returned it. Sigma is too bulky and heavy and with mount-adapter it gets even worse.
I'm surprised 1) to hear you think the RF50/1.8 is "just horrible" or that 2) you think an RF50/1.4 would be either better (if a double Gaussian design) or smaller than the Sigma (if a modern high-sharpness design).

As to sharpness, I get surprisingly sharp photos from 1/2s on up. See my thread https://www.canonrumors.com/forum/t...s-of-the-rf50-1-8-vs-the-rf24-105-4lis.42172/ for more detail.

As to lens design, refer to my post a few posts back in this thread. But 50mm designs will either be double-Gaussian and have most of the failures of the RF50/1.8 (if failures they be, I find it surprisingly good) or will be a new-school design that is as bulky and heavy as the Sigma.
 
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