Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

[unfocused]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Really, if you have a ff camera and need more reach you probably can afford one of the TCs.

Sure...if your variable-aperture or f/5.6 lens will AF with one...

Well, if you have a full frame camera and need more reach, you should just buy a 7D. That way your variable-aperture or f/5/6 lens will AF. (Credit Neuro with pointing this out many times on previous threads. The best available extender is an APS-C body.)

 

[KyleSTL]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

In the Canon system the EF-S stands for short back focus...

Actually, the -S in EF-S stands for small image circle. Yes, I know Wikipedia says it stands for short back focus, and Bob Atkins and lots of other sources do, too. But they're wrong.

Citation? I know incorrect information gets disseminated pretty rapidly and thoroughly on the internet, but do you have any citation for the correct abreviation?

Because I said so...

If you look at the Canon Technical Report for the EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM, you'll see the notation, "*The "S" in "EF-S" comes from "Small image circle.""

Also, if you look at p. 128 of EF Lens Work III (it's in section 7, The Basics of Interchangeable Lenses...), there's a notation that, "* Some of the EF-S lenses does not employ a short back focus optical system." (yes, that's grammatically incorrect, but correctly quoted)

Thanks for the information. I am continually impressed with your knowledge of the Canon EOS system, and photography and optical systems in general.

 

[c-law]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

I cannot see the 7D going FF. Forget what was said about naming problems that come from continuity of sensor size or annoying legions of 7D and EF-S owners looking for an upgrade path (which are both real concerns) but think about what a FF 7DII that retains the ethos of the 7D with good AF/fast FPS. You end up with the 5DIII but trading a worse AF (but still very good) for better FPS. How could they release this without killing the 5D line dead? It is just too similar.

If it were me, this is how I'd pitch the Canon line-up (coming from pure speculation based on nothing more then what I think makes sense).

1Dx - Top of the line Pro camera @ $6800
5DIII - High-end small form factor FF @ $3500
7DII - High-end small form factor APS-C @ $2200 (61pt AF/8-10FPS)
9D - Entry level FF @ $1600 (Build like a rebel or xxD, not highly sealed, low FPS, xxD or 7D AF)
70D - Enthusiast APS-C @ $1200 (7D AF/6FPS)
650D - Everyman's DSLR APS-C @ $850
1100D - Low-level budget APS-C @ $500


The only thing I am unsure of is where I'd place the high MP camera. Do you go 3D level @ $5000 and go for really impressive and hope that everyone who gets upset about price already got offended by the 5DIII price and jumped ship to the D800? Or do you place it competitive to the D800 at around $3000 and risk over crowding the 5DIII/7DII (and if this is the case, what will Canon leave out to make it fit the price slot)? Finally, if it does compete with the D800 price wise then what will move into the mysterious $5000 price range unless Canon goes for 2 high MP cameras?

 

[RLPhoto]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

More evidence that the 7DII will be aps-H.

 

[Astro]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

well that is not close.. it is exactly what i have quoted from bobatkins an written in my first reply.


Sorry for the repetition, I did not read the quoted text. What astro said about lens compatiblity between Nikon and Canon has nothing to do with DX/FX or EF/EF-S compatibility, only with FBD, which is a different story entirely.

that is why i wrote it is different story.
the nikon/canon example was only to show that there must be no "bi-directional" compatibility in such cases.

9D - Entry level FF @ $1600 (Build like a rebel or xxD, not highly sealed, low FPS, xxD or 7D AF)

if the D600 is in the same league that would be fine.
but i think canon could not afford that the D600 is much better feature wise.

im only guessing here but a 1600-1800$ fullframe will create a lot of interest, in my opinion.

 

[c-law]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

9D - Entry level FF @ $1600 (Build like a rebel or xxD, not highly sealed, low FPS, xxD or 7D AF)

if the D600 is in the same league that would be fine.
but i think canon could not afford that the D600 is much better feature wise.

im only guessing here but a 1600-1800$ fullframe will create a lot of interest, in my opinion.

I believe Canon would risk that their name would carry a slightly inferior spec's camera as long as it isn't too far out. They pitted the 19pt AF of the 7D against the 51pt Af of the D300/s, although they did have the FPS advantage.

 

[aznable]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

9D - Entry level FF @ $1600 (Build like a rebel or xxD, not highly sealed, low FPS, xxD or 7D AF)

if the D600 is in the same league that would be fine.
but i think canon could not afford that the D600 is much better feature wise.

im only guessing here but a 1600-1800$ fullframe will create a lot of interest, in my opinion.

I believe Canon would risk that their name would carry a slightly inferior spec's camera as long as it isn't too far out. They pitted the 19pt AF of the 7D against the 51pt Af of the D300/s, although they did have the FPS advantage.

i think for moving subjects the af of 7d performs better, not talking about the advantage in shutter lag the 7d has, and the 50% more pixels on sensor.

 

[traveller]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

The debate over whether we'll see a direct 7D (and D300s) replacement is getting even more interesting. If the pictures of the D600 on NR are real, what does this imply for a D300s replacement? The D600 looks very similar to the D7000, both in size and control interface (e.g. the mode dial), which would confirm it's budget status compared to the Nikon semi-pro interface of the D800. Could Nikon therefore market a 'D400' in the same position as the D300s (i.e. a high end "DX" camera in a D800 style body) alongside this D600 without sending out mixed messages, and if they did, what price point would it occupy? Perhaps the lack of a D400 with the D7000 generation indicates that the high-end 'DX' format camera is dead? Having made this suggestion, Nikon have done this before with the D100 and D70.

 

[c-law]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Theres an interesting thought, could Canon possibly kill two birds with... well two well aimed stones by making the $5000 price point and the new entry level FF both high MP beasts?

You could hit the two levels of people who really care about high MP, people who don't know much about cameras other than more MP are better and those few who genuinely need lots more MP.

You'd probably still upset some people but you always will.

 

[Haydn1971]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

...and Neuro gets quoted on "The Digital Picture"

Your famous now ;-)

 

[unfocused]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

The debate over whether we'll see a direct 7D (and D300s) replacement is getting even more interesting. If the pictures of the D600 on NR are real, what does this imply for a D300s replacement? ...Could Nikon therefore market a 'D400' in the same position as the D300s (i.e. a high end "DX" camera in a D800 style body) alongside this D600 without sending out mixed messages, and if they did, what price point would it occupy? Perhaps the lack of a D400 with the D7000 generation indicates that the high-end 'DX' format camera is dead? Having made this suggestion, Nikon have done this before with the D100 and D70.

Could Nikon market both a D600 and a D400 at similar price points? Could Canon market both a 7DII and a Full-Frame Rebel at similar price points?

Why not?

APS-C and Full Frame are two very different formats with very different strengths and weaknesses. One is not better than the other, they are simply different. It is much easier to market two different products at similar price points than it is to market two nearly identical products at vastly different price points – but that will be the real challenge both Nikon and Canon will face if they release "entry-level" full frame cameras that compete with the 5DIII and the D800.

Almost every other industry gives people similar choices. Look at cars for example. Order the small coupe with all the options or for the same price, get the stripped down full-size sedan. One doesn't eat into the sales of the other because they are bought by two different customers. A much more difficult marketing challenge would be to sell the same full-size sedan at $25,000 and $60,000 with the same engine and nearly identical options.

 

[qualityresults]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Although I would like to see this when the announcement comes
I don't think the 7dII will be FF
I think you will see a 4D to follow the 1 D 5D format for full frame and
the 7dII will be the 7D with the digic V processors and the new 2.0 firmware and the af of the 5D mkIII but still APS-C and 24MP plus sensor

 

[Jmanc]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

I'm just hoping the 7DII just an updated version (APS-C) of the current 7D since that's what I'm holding out for.

 

[EchoLocation]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Is it just me, or did Canon get smoked this year. Sure, I love the 5DIII, but at worst it should be the same price as the D800. There is no test or review that shows it as being better than the D800, while the D800 has been hailed as wunderkind by most reviews I have read.
Now, there are rumors of a High MP 1D series body. Sure this is nice for die hard Canon users. But what Nikon user, or undecided non partisan buyer would purchase a 1D series priced camera when the D800 is only 3000.
Now, Nikon is seeming to be getting ready to drop the D600 for lets say 2000 dollars(rumors say 1500.) Even at 2000 dollars, this is 1500 dollars, and If you look at the specs, it looks rather similar than the 5DIII.
Sure, the 5DIII might be better, but if you aren't a blind fanboy of Canon, why would you pay 1500 dollars or 2000 dollars more for something that is just a little bit better.
With this new round of updates, it seems pretty obvious that Canon's sensor technology is getting trounced by Sony/Nikon.
I would not be surprised at all if the D600 has the same or better DXO scores as the 5DIII.
For me it seems that the best way(possibly only way) for Canon to one up Nikon in this series of releases(where there sensor is obviously not nearly as improved as Nikon's) is to put that sensor in a FF mirrorless body, but I really doubt that would happen.
This is probably the only thing that would keep me from buying the D600 at this point.

BTW, I've been a Canon owner for a few years and have a 5DC, 24-105 and 50mm 1.4. If the 5DIII was 2500 dollars I would have pre ordered it, but at 3500 it was way out of my price range and didn't get good enough reviews for me to consider spending that kind of money. I wasn't even considering Nikon at all one year ago but have been very disappointed by the price points of the new lenses and cameras(when i bought in to the system i thought Nikon lenses and bodies were more expensive, now it's the opposite.)
I have never lusted after the 5DII as the AF of my T2i/5DC is the biggest drawback for me and the 5DII doesn't seem significantly better.
At this point, I think Canon has royally screwed up, and their pricing is just out of touch.

 

[AprilForever]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

The 7D mk II HAS to be APS-C. If it is not, there will be blood, sweat, and tears!!!

On a serious note, neutering the 7D MK II would indeed be a marketing disaster. Will canon bloat the sensor to FF? I think not. The 5D MK III is nearly a FF 7d. Will Canon turn the 7D into the 70D? Only if they want Nikon to gobble that market.

Is it possible for Canon to do something mind-numbingly stupid? Yes. Anyone remember ET, the atari game?

 

[Daniel Flather]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Really, if you have a ff camera and need more reach you probably can afford one of the TCs.

Sure...if your variable-aperture or f/5.6 lens will AF with one...

Well, if you have a full frame camera and need more reach, you should just buy a 7D. That way your variable-aperture or f/5/6 lens will AF. (Credit Neuro with pointing this out many times on previous threads. The best available extender is an APS-C body.)

Two great points, but maybe the 1dx can be fooled and will AF @ f8 with a little tape. Has this been tried with the 5d3 by any forum members?

 

[wickidwombat]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

The 7D mk II HAS to be APS-C. If it is not, there will be blood, sweat, and tears!!!

On a serious note, neutering the 7D MK II would indeed be a marketing disaster. Will canon bloat the sensor to FF? I think not. The 5D MK III is nearly a FF 7d. Will Canon turn the 7D into the 70D? Only if they want Nikon to gobble that market.

Is it possible for Canon to do something mind-numbingly stupid? Yes. Anyone remember ET, the atari game?

I really hope is APS-H mostly because I really want to see your reaction

that and I love APS-H

but more seriously I think APS-H with an APS-C crop mode which gives a FPS boost would be really awesome
I also think they should use the 45 point AF and keep the f8 AF regardless
say maybe 6FPS in APS-H and 9 FPS in APS-C

FF in a 7D would just be retarded

 

[briansquibb]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Really, if you have a ff camera and need more reach you probably can afford one of the TCs.

Sure...if your variable-aperture or f/5.6 lens will AF with one...

Well, if you have a full frame camera and need more reach, you should just buy a 7D. That way your variable-aperture or f/5/6 lens will AF. (Credit Neuro with pointing this out many times on previous threads. The best available extender is an APS-C body.)

Two great points, but maybe the 1dx can be fooled and will AF @ f8 with a little tape. Has this been tried with the 5d3 by any forum members?

It would be good if there was a 'super sports' body with either a 1.3 or 1.6 crop. 1.3 would be the best compromise because of the IQ benefits

 

[unfocused]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

The 7D mk II HAS to be APS-C. If it is not, there will be blood, sweat, and tears!!!

On a serious note, neutering the 7D MK II would indeed be a marketing disaster. Will canon bloat the sensor to FF? I think not. The 5D MK III is nearly a FF 7d. Will Canon turn the 7D into the 70D? Only if they want Nikon to gobble that market.

Is it possible for Canon to do something mind-numbingly stupid? Yes. Anyone remember ET, the atari game?

Possible? Yes. Likely? No.

Don't despair. Canon is a shrewd, sophisticated company. They know their 7D customers and they know how to get us to upgrade to the II. We will see an APS-C 7DII and it will be spectacular. (And of course, they'll probably squeeze every cent out of us that they can. But we will go happily like lambs to the slaughter because we loves our 7Ds)

 

[x-vision]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Will Canon turn the 7D into the 70D? Only if they want Nikon to gobble that market.

Have you not seen this:
http://nikonrumors.com/2012/06/14/first-leaked-nikon-d600-images.aspx/

Nikon will obviously have a FF camera at the $1800 price point, where the D300 and 7D used to live.
After Photokina, any crop camera at this price point will be doomed, as it just stands no chance when it comes to image quality.

So, if Canon doesn't want Nikon to gobble that market, the 7DII will have to be FF and priced competitively.