Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

[TTMartin]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

...

Now it may be that you still don't grasp that. Ok. Go and read some of the reviews of the D800 and look at what people are able to do with shadows - they can get meaningful detail out of the shadows without introducing any amount of significant noise. You simply cannot do that with any currently available Canon DSLR.

DxO are right and their measurements have been backed up by numerous folks with D800s when working with raw files in Lightroom, ACR, etc. dpreview's results match up with DxO's, you're just misunderstanding all of the data that dpreview are giving you.

Actually what DPReview shows it that the 5D MkIII has better highlight capability than the D800. So while with the D800 you might be able to dig more data out of the shadows it is at the expense of dynamic range on the high end. Dynamic range isn't just on the shadow end, its at the highlight end too. So, while the D800 retains more shadow detail, the 5D MkIII retains more highlight detail, the total EV range of the two cameras is very similar.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

As a practical matter, I suspect the crop debate, at least in part, boils down to the fact that FF sensors are not likely to emerge with sufficient pixel density to produce IQ equivalent to a high quality crop sensor in distance constrained situations using the same lens, i.e. the same subject distance.

Surprisingly, when you shoot the same subject at the same distance and crop the FF image to the FoV of the APS-C sensor, the IQ isn't too different, at least based on my comparison of the 5DII with the 7D. The 7D image was slightly sharper, the 5DII image was slightly less noisy (and you can trade noise for sharpness, meaning effectively a wash). But...the cropped 5DII image is only 8 MP, compared to the full 18 MP of the 7D. So...if you need to crop further (or if 8 MP is not enough resolution for your desired output), then the APS-C sensor is the better choice.

Yeah, each left to their max res, the 7D gives more detail with more noise. Normalize them for same detail and then the 7D has a bit less artifacts and a trace less noise.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

The only other direction I could see for the 7D is this:

APS-C sensor
30 MP
fill in the rest with whatever...

Not so sure, why not 5D3 AF, 22MP, APS-C, 6fps (8-10fps if they can fit two digic 5+, part of me thinks they could get at least 7fps out of one digic 5+ and they chose not to for the 5D3 maybe due to using a slower mirror box, but who knows).
Basically the exact same thing as the 5D3 only it is APS-C and maybe 1-3 more fps.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Canon must response somehow to Nikon. Don't forget the marketing ( something new, something unique ... WOW)...

The APS-H sensor, mirror mechanism, mount, AF system is allready in use. Canon must only redesign the sensor MP and the camera body ( everything else is existing) From the cost point of view only the body and sensor must be redesigned.

There is no "wow" factor involved with the APS-H sensor, it is an old trick and its shine has worn off.

What wildlife/bird shooters want is greater pixel density (or smaller pixels), which is usually an anathema to everyone.

If Canon delivered a FF 46MP DSLR tomorrow, I can almost guarantee you that there'd be a loud chorus of "too many MP", "bad for low light", "bad for high-ISO" and "who needs so many MP" yet it would simply have the same pixel density as the 7D and thus a 300mm zoom on it would result in the same detail as a 300mm on a 7D.

There’s a price war looming. Canon is going to be hard pressed to adjust to whatever the competition push them to do. Good for us anyway.

Agreed.

You forget one essential aspect for wildlife/outdoor photography ... The extra reach.

No, you just don't understand what "extra reach" really means.

A 46MP Full Frame sensor has the same "reach" as a 18MP APS-C sensor.

What you see through the viewfinder deceives you into thinking that you are getting something that you are not.

The current advantage of APS-C sensors of full frame sensors is the increased pixel density on the sensor.

Or to put it another way, both the 20D and 30D have exactly the same "reach" as a 5D MarkII, 1Ds Mark II and for all practical purposes, the 5D Mark III.

Have you not noticed that pro sports togs use 1D4's. There must have been a reason!

APS-C does not give the same IQ as APS-H
APS-H has more reach than ff

APS-H is the compromise solution that has no major weakness

APS-H has more reach than FF, IF they both have the same number of MP or the FF doesn't have more than a certain number more than the APS-H camera does.

 

[unfocused]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

The only other direction I could see for the 7D is this:

APS-C sensor
30 MP
fill in the rest with whatever...

Not so sure, why not 5D3 AF, 22MP, APS-C, 6fps (8-10fps if they can fit two digic 5+, part of me thinks they could get at least 7fps out of one digic 5+ and they chose not to for the 5D3 maybe due to using a slower mirror box, but who knows).
Basically the exact same thing as the 5D3 only it is APS-C and maybe 1-3 more fps.

I don't see 30MP. Perhaps someone is just being pessimistic. Given Canon's emphasis so far this year on ISO over resolution, I wouldn't be surprised to see the 7D sensor stay between 18-22 MP. I wouldn't be surprised to see an extra 1-3 fps and I also expect in most other respects it will be an APS-C version of the 5DIII.

 

[briansquibb]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Have you not noticed that pro sports togs use 1D4's. There must have been a reason!

APS-C does not give the same IQ as APS-H
APS-H has more reach than ff

APS-H is the compromise solution that has no major weakness

I think you've left out two very important qualities: frame rate and auto-focus. Without those, the APS-H sensor would be meaningless.

A particular format of sensor has no IQ. There's nothing inherently better about APS-H than APS-C or FF.

IQ is a property of the design of the pixels and the sensor as a whole. If they used the same pixels from APS-C on a sensor that was APS-H then both sensors would have the same IQ. The only difference would be that the APS-H sensor would have more pixels - approximately 50% more. A 300mm lens on a 12MP APS-H has the same reach as a 8MP APS-C and 21MP Full Frame lens.

I guess you cant see how you are contradicting yourself

 

[briansquibb]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

What gives a lens its "reach" is the pixel density, not the sensor format. A 300mm lens on a 20D will give you almost the same "reach" as on a 5D Mark II/III/1Ds3.

Yep - perhaps you need to tell the sports pros that they have been using the wrong sensors for the last 10 years, never mind the wrong manufacturers cameras

You seem to have missed out the bit about APS-C using thr sweet spot of the lens and why the ff D800/D600 is such a good camera.

I actively use all 3 sensor types - I dont think I need your opinion about which is best

 

[Richard8971]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Honestly, the odds of BOTH the 7DII and a 70D being released are hard to swallow. I would see one or the other, but given the "failures" of the 60D to continue the legacy of the XXD series, I forsee the XXD line being dropped for a new flagship APS-C 7D mark II.

They won't upgrade the 7DII to full frame or APS-H (unless it supports EF-s lenses) and it doesn't make much sence to release TWO high performace APS-C cameras (which is where the 70D and 7DII would have to be placed) after the T4i.

The merging of the 70D and 7DII is logical. My guess with the sucess of the 7D, they will call the "new" camera the 7DII and NOT the 70D.

Just my 2 cents.

D

 

[Richard8971]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

I also expect in most other respects it will be an APS-C version of the 5DIII.

I would have to agree.

The 7DII would most likely be

Dual Digic 5

22+ MP APS-C sensor (or perhaps even higher MP) This could be the high MP APS-C Canon Camera.

8-10 fps.

The XXD line will be dropped (in MO). It has to be dropped based on the features found on the new T4i. Canon won't drop the flagship line 7D in favor of a "new" flagship 70D. The 60D "sucked" in terms of performace (based on previous XXD cameras) and the T4i is almost as good (almost) at $150.00 cheaper.

They HAD to "strip" some of the XXD features to encourage sales of the 7D. The 50D was too close to the 7D in terms of basic features so the downgrade of the XXD line was unavoidable.

I had always assumed that the XD line (7D) was going to be a replacement of the XXD line anyway. It IS the flagship APS-C camera and will continue the trend. No WAY the 70D will replace that.

Sorry guys, just my opinion and will stay such.

D

 

[ThomasN]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Canon must get their house in order

Entry level FF will be called 6D not 7DII because Canon will kill the 7D APS-C by making it FF and will not have the possibility to get back to 7D APS-C on a later time if that should fit into the lineup.
An entry level 6D makes sense.
And put the 7D to sleep and put the features into 70D, and let th 70D again be the top of the APS-C line.

This gives us this perfect lineup

1D Top of the line pro camera
3D (name saved for 3D video DSLR for movie use)
4D 46MP (or so) studio and pro 4K video camera
5D wedding and architect camera
6D Entry level FF
70D Top of the APS-C line (prosumer)
xxxD Top amateur APS-C line
xxxxD entry level DSLR

8)

 

[samirachiko]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

In my opinion: 70D will replace 7D and it will be the top of aps-c sensor. The next 7D will be called 6D: the cheap full frame!!!

Totally agree with ThomasN! ;D

 

[briansquibb]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

What gives a lens its "reach" is the pixel density, not the sensor format. A 300mm lens on a 20D will give you almost the same "reach" as on a 5D Mark II/III/1Ds3.

Yep - perhaps you need to tell the sports pros that they have been using the wrong sensors for the last 10 years, never mind the wrong manufacturers cameras.

I think that the professional sports photographers, etc, all use whatever works the best and that the choice of sensor is either irrelevant or of secondary concern. If Canon never had APS-H, I doubt very much that there would be more or less professionals using Canon because of that. Similarly, the 1D series could have had 1.4 or 1.2 or 1.5 crop and they'd still have used it.

So we are in agreement - Canon made the best camera they could and the pro used it. I would guess then that the sensor that Canon chose was the one they knew would deliver what was needed. So by inference the APS-H sensor was the best sensor to sports/action.

IMO therefore would make sense therefore that the APS-H would make perfect sense for a super sports camera to come in above the 7D - tried tested and proven over the last 10 years and with the R&D done to increase the mps well above 36mps.

 

[daniemare]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

I think it is more likely the 7D MkII remains a high frame rate APS sensor sports oriented camera.

I think the 70D will be a full frame upgrade to the 60D, with a polycarb body and an articulating screen.

I think this makes a lot more sense for Canon. With the 1D going full frame many sports pros still want the extra reach of an APS sensor (C or H) and the pro level 7D would fill that.

A full frame 70D modeled after the 60D makes sense. It would allow an entry level full frame camera, without putting to much pricing pressure on the 5D MkIII.

So I see Canon's line up as:
1DX
3D a high mega pixel full frame camera to match the D800
5D Mk III
7D Mk II high frame rate APS sensor camera
70D poly carb swivel LCD full frame camera (Full Frame Super Rebel)
T4i
T4 entry level APS-C camera
?? Mirrorless Camera designed to use STM lenses.

I added my version to your lineup:
1DX
3D a high mega pixel full frame camera to match the D800
5D Mk III
6D (5DII with new sensor and tech, slightly improved AF)
7D Mk II high frame rate APS sensor camera
70D poly carb swivel LCD full frame camera (Full Frame Super Rebel)
T4i
T4 entry level APS-C camera
?? Mirrorless Camera designed to use STM lenses.

From a marketing perspective, a full frame 70D modeled after the 60D makes sense. It would allow an entry level full frame camera, to answer the Nikon D600 without putting to much pricing pressure on the 5D MkIII or the 7D MkII. It could be priced around the 7D without hurting its sales. Just like today most sport shooters would still buy a 1D MkIV over a 5D MkIII, they would by the 7D Mk II over the 70D entry level full frame.

Also an entry level full frame camera is still and entry level camera, not a pro camera, not marketed to pros, it doesn't need pro numbering or a pro body. A poly carb Super Rebel body like the 60D allows lower cost of production to keep the price low. It would work as a back up body for pro full frame shooters, or as an entry level full frame camera for those that want to step up.

The 6D you describe would have too much presure from used 5D MkIIs to make sense. Improve its features to much over the 5D MkII and now you compete with the 5D MkIII. Wrap it in a poly carb body and you don't hurt your 5D Mk III sales, even if its features are better than the 5D MkII.

Lots of reasons why a Full Frame Polycarb 70D makes sense. And it really doesn't go that much in the face of the rumor statements.

I have been saying this from even before the D600 rumours. A 70D FF will really be entry level, so preventing 5D pressure and will be the most probable $1500 - $1700 price point delivery.

Marketing will be easy:
xD = Pro (regardless of sensor size as many birders like the "built-in" TC of a Pro 7D)
xxD,xxxD,xxxxD & mirrorless = Consumer (also regardless of sensor size)

 

[dlleno]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Honestly, the odds of BOTH the 7DII and a 70D being released are hard to swallow. I would see one or the other, but given the "failures" of the 60D to continue the legacy of the XXD series, I forsee the XXD line being dropped for a new flagship APS-C 7D mark II.

They won't upgrade the 7DII to full frame or APS-H (unless it supports EF-s lenses) and it doesn't make much sence to release TWO high performace APS-C cameras (which is where the 70D and 7DII would have to be placed) after the T4i.

The merging of the 70D and 7DII is logical. My guess with the sucess of the 7D, they will call the "new" camera the 7DII and NOT the 70D.

Just my 2 cents.

D

Well, since this is a rumor/opinion site, every opinion is valid if it has some reasonable number of neurons behind it. The above seems the most logical to me, depending of course on how one second-guesses the 7D intro. I'm not sure there is room to continue with four APS-C bodies xxxxD, xxxd, xxd, and 7D, so one of those has to go. I see the 7D intro as an effort to assert, or even experiment with, a near-pro C body and squeeze out one of the others eventually. The outcome of the 7D intro, it seems to me, was wildly succesful, which suggest that something with a 7 on the front will continue.

Marketing and customer messaging is both an art and a science, and moving the 7D itself to a FF sensor would drastically change the positioning of this body, as well as the market perceptions in ways far more profound than the merge of the APS-H 1D4 with the FF 1DS -- which itself was accomplished by droping the 1D<x> moniker altogether. So, just my interpretation of Canon's actions I would say 7D either disappears entirely or stays as the flagship APS-C body. and since the latter appears to have been Canon's intentions all along ,that seem the most likely outcome. Even a change to APS-H, as cool as that would be, would be even more confusing to today's 7D community who have already invested in EF-S lenses that would not work with such a sensor change. 7D owners would wanted to upgrade would be forced into the 70D or sell their S lenses. From a marketing perspective, the 70D name doesn't quite cut it, imho, as the flaship C body, when you already have 7D doing that already.

What's still conspicuously absent is an indication from Canon as to how they will fulfill their stated commitment to pro wildlife and sports without a 1.3x in the picture - unless it is with the combination of 1DX and 7D. and to do that, a new APS-C sensor in the 7D could have to produce better images than cropped 1DX images of the same FOV -- and do so more convincingly than todays 7D when compared with the 5D3. Such a (7D2) camera would have to reign as the premium flagship C body that the pros would be happy to carry as a 2nd body.

of course, we could see an APS-H surprise as well, which would be a fascinating show to watch on this board if it ever happend!

 

[briansquibb]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

of course, we could see an APS-H surprise as well, which would be a fascinating show to watch on this board if it ever happend!

Indeed it would

 

[Richard8971]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Some here are concluding that APS-H is dead. When did Canon make such an announcement? Didn't they just produce a prototype APS-H 120MP sensor about a year or so ago?

http://www.canonrumors.com/2010/08/canons-120mp-aps-h-sensor/

Why would they do so if the APS-H sensor was eventually going to be eliminated? Hmmmm....

There is nothing wrong with the APS-H sensor. It allows some crop (additional reach) and can allow for "cleaner" images over the APS-C sensor and it's cheaper to produce than a FF sensor.

However, that being said, I cannot imagine the 7DII being FF or APS-H, unless it came compatable with EF-s lenses but hardware limitations won't allow for that, yet. Too many 7D owners have EF-s lenses that would NOT be compatable with a 7DII if it was produced with a FF or APS-H sensor. That would be a poor marketing decision for Canon, in MO.

I still believe the XXD line will be dropped and the 7DII will take it's place.

D

 

[Richard8971]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

The above seems the most logical to me...

...of course, we could see an APS-H surprise as well, which would be a fascinating show to watch on this board if it ever happend!

Thanks.

And I agree, no one here knows exactly what Canon will do.

D

 

[Richard8971]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

If 10 years ago Canon had the machinery it does today then APS-H would never have existed.

And how do you come to this conclusion? Canon simply made DSLR sensors to co-exist with some of the existing SLR film standards, 35mm, APS-H and APS-C. Film users would more easily adapt to sensor sizes tailored to what they were already used too.

Each sensor offers pros and cons over the other. Nothing wrong with any of them, just depends on what you need/want in a camera.

I own both the 5DII and 7D. Am I unhappy with one of them? NO! Each camera offers something the other cannot and I for one am glad I have both to choose from, depending on my shooting needs. If I had a 1D mark (whatever) with an APS-H sensor, I would use it too!

D

 

[briansquibb]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

There's a thread elsewhere about some Euro football shooter that is using the 1DX. Does he complain anywhere about no longer having a 1.3x crop? No. All he cares about is the autofocus performance and frame rate. Wonder of wonders.

I can't follow the logic of your threads - one minute you are advocating APS-C because of the reach now you are talking about ff. My difficulty is understanding why you are so anti APS-H - and assume I am a APS-H fanboy when you consider that I only bought it October 2011 as an upgrade to the 7D.

From my ownership of both the 7D and a 1D4 I am suggesting a replacement for the 7D as a APS-H super sports camera not a replacement for the 1DX. I would be interested to know whether 7D owners would like to upgrade to:

- 10fps
- 24mps
- twin CF slots
- 42 point AF
- AF point metering

All these features would be available by migrating down the technology from the 1D4. Not a big deal and from my experience a very valid suggestion.

 

[bdunbar79]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

There's a thread elsewhere about some Euro football shooter that is using the 1DX. Does he complain anywhere about no longer having a 1.3x crop? No. All he cares about is the autofocus performance and frame rate. Wonder of wonders.

I can't follow the logic of your threads - one minute you are advocating APS-C because of the reach now you are talking about ff. My difficulty is understanding why you are so anti APS-H - and assume I am a APD-H fanboy when you consider that I only bought it October 2011 as an upgrade to the 7D.

From my ownership of both the 7D I am suggesting a replacement for the 7D as a APS-H super sports camera not a replacement for the 1DX. I would be interested to know whether 7D owners would like to upgrade to:

- 10fps
- 24mps
- twin CF slots
- 42 point AF
- AF point metering

All these features would be available by migrating down the technology from the 1D4. Not a big deal and from my experience a very valid suggestion.

I'm very serious here. Brian if that were the case, I'd buy that over the 1D X and be very happy.