SIGMA will address the RF mount in 2022 [CR3]

bbasiaga

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Nov 15, 2011
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Its been rumoured that Sigma refuse to reverse engineer for mirrorless and that they’ll only produce glass on mounts for which they have protocols provided to them by the OEM. I would guess that Sigma don’t want a situation where their emount glass has licensed support and the AF has near/matching native level performance but RF is reverse engineered and the AF is noticeably inferior compared to native RF glass.

Remember Tamron, Zeiss, Tokina and Voigtländer haven’t supported the RF mount yet either.
Yes, a comment above stating that got me thinking, and spurred my original response.

The thing I was thinking is: Sigma already knows the EF protocols, so no reverse engineering is necessary. They may not be able to take full advantage of the dual voltage drive on the 3 (supposedly) and 1 (probably) series bodies, but every other EF lens works flawlessly on an RF body from an AF perspective. They give up almost nothing performance wise, using a protocol they know well. The control ring is another issue, but I'm guessing it is a lot less to 'reverse engineer' than AF communications.

Brian
 
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AJ

Sep 11, 2010
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Back when DSLR's were fairly new, I had several Sigma Film lenses, a fair sized investment. all 5 refused to work on my first Canon DSLR. Sigma could only provide a fix for one of the lenses and that cost me $150. The rest of them went to ebay with a note telling buyers that they were only usable for film. Sigma then revised their chip again when the lenses did not work on the latest DSLR's.

Since then, I've only bought one Sigma lens for my APS-C camera and it did not live up to the hype.

I can't imagine buying a new Sigma lens that had been reverse engineered for RF. It took Sigma 3 tries to get the EF versions to work.
I think a lot has changed since then. Sigma has gone from low-end and budget to upmarket. Firmware can now be updated through the USB docking station. Nowadays, the low-end is served by some of the Chinese start-ups.

The main thing, though, is that back in the day the lenses were reverse-engineered. I imagine that when Canon developed the EF protocol in the mid 80s, they developed a pretty simple protocol with not much thought to third parties. Now, fast-forward to RF. I imagine this protocol is tremendously complex and near impossible to reverse-engineer.

It seems that Sony has licensed their protocol to Sigma. For example, this publication has a footnote stating that: "This product is developed, manufactured and sold based on the specifications of E-mount which was disclosed by Sony Corporation under the license agreement with Sony Corporation"

If the future is licensing, which I hope it will be, then we can expect (1) more stability and better compatibility; and (2) higher prices for Sigma gear because I doubt Canon will license for free.

@MtSpokane, I do hope you get another chance to try some Sigma gear. Some of their latest lenses are simply awesome.
 
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Yes, a comment above stating that got me thinking, and spurred my original response.

The thing I was thinking is: Sigma already knows the EF protocols, so no reverse engineering is necessary. They may not be able to take full advantage of the dual voltage drive on the 3 (supposedly) and 1 (probably) series bodies, but every other EF lens works flawlessly on an RF body from an AF perspective. They give up almost nothing performance wise, using a protocol they know well. The control ring is another issue, but I'm guessing it is a lot less to 'reverse engineer' than AF communications.

Brian
I would imagine there’s a lot more going on code wise with RF mount than EF even if they are closely related. Its not just AF protocols but also any distortion correction in the EVF and IBIS compatibility.
 
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unfocused

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...The control ring is another issue, but I'm guessing it is a lot less to 'reverse engineer' than AF communications...
There are several third-party adapters on Amazon, including some with control rings, so yeah it probably doesn't take much to reverse engineer.
 
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bbasiaga

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I would imagine there’s a lot more going on code wise with RF mount than EF even if they are closely related. Its not just AF protocols but also any distortion correction in the EVF and IBIS compatibility.
Distortion correction works with EF lenses on R bodies. I think most of the magic (stored lens profiles) must be in the body. I don't believe the DSLR bodies used in camera lens distortion correct for 3rd party lenses in the past (admittedly, most of my 3rd party glass is relatively obscure like a Rokinon 8mm fish eye, 24mm TSE, and 14mm 2.8 ED, so I may just be lucky in that it never worked for my lenses). Its possible that it is sending a few bits of info, like 'what is my barrel distortion correction value' 'what is my pincushion correction value' or 'what is my vignette correction value'...but if its doing that on a DSLR today it can do it via the same protocol on RF tomorrow. Or its possible its passing its name/model number, and the camera is looking in its firmware for a profile. Again, this could be done on EF, so it can be done on RF too. But I doubt canon is going to update firmware every time some new 3rd party lens comes on the market, just so in camera corrections are perfect. That is why I'd guess, at most, its just sending a parameter value for basic corrections.

I'm sure there is a lot more going on with RF than EF, but my only point here is that very good performance could still be had using the EF protocols on the RF mount. I'm sure Sigma wants to use the full value of the mount, and I want them too as well! But if Canon were holding out on the necessary license or details in some way, I think they'd eventually be forced to do something on their own. Canon has a lot of the market, and Sigma can't afford to ignore it forever.

Samyang/Rokinon have some AF lenses that are getting good reviews on the RF mount. I doubt they got a license. So either they hacked it, or went with EF protocols.

Brian
 
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SteveC

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Its not just AF protocols but also any distortion correction in the EVF and IBIS compatibility.
I doubt that stuff has anything to do with the actual RF mount specification.

Distortion correction is applied within the body of the camera; that's why you need firmware updates to be able to use new distorting lenses correctly.

Now if Sigma makes a distorting lens, they are going to have a tough time of it, persuading Canon to release a firmware update, which tells me Sigma won't be making distorting lenses.
 
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Bob Howland

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I doubt that stuff has anything to do with the actual RF mount specification.

Distortion correction is applied within the body of the camera; that's why you need firmware updates to be able to use new distorting lenses correctly.

Now if Sigma makes a distorting lens, they are going to have a tough time of it, persuading Canon to release a firmware update, which tells me Sigma won't be making distorting lenses.
I very much doubt that's how it's implemented. More likely, there is process in the camera that needs a set of lookup values sent by the lens to determine how much correction of various types to apply. Doing it your way means that Canon would have to update the camera firmware every time they introduce a new lens. Also, Sigma has stated that they "fully support" Canon's distortion correction.
 
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reefroamer

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Jun 21, 2014
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I don’t think it’s wrong for Canon to want to capitalize, for some time period, on its innovation of the R system and and exclusively build a catalog of its own RF lenses. They have made a major investment in launching this system. And I doubt there is much interest from Sigma or others in making RF-compatible lenses until Canon has sold a certain critical mass number of R bodies. After three years, we may finally be reaching both of these landmarks, where Canon is more open to third-party lens compatibility and Sigma and others find the growing base of R camera owners large enough to attract their interest and investment.
 
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AJ

Sep 11, 2010
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I would imagine there’s a lot more going on code wise with RF mount than EF even if they are closely related. Its not just AF protocols but also any distortion correction in the EVF and IBIS compatibility.
I imagine much of the complexity involves getting IBIS to work optimally with in-lens stabilization.
Distortion correction is probably purely in camera. All the lens has to do is to identify itself (also for exif)
 
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Bob Howland

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I imagine much of the complexity involves getting IBIS to work optimally with in-lens stabilization.
Distortion correction is probably purely in camera. All the lens has to do is to identify itself (also for exif)
The lens is going to have to do more than just identify itself. Let's assume that the lens is brand new model. How is the camera body going to know how much vignetting correction, for example, to apply if the camera body is several years old and is still using years old firmware?
 
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SteveC

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The lens is going to have to do more than just identify itself. Let's assume that the lens is brand new model. How is the camera body going to know how much vignetting correction, for example, to apply if the camera body is several years old and is still using years old firmware?
But we've already seen that Canon releases new firmware right before releasing a heavily distorting lens. (I'm not talking about the very minor distortions the top end lenses produce, I'm talking about lenses like the 24-240.)
 
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I doubt that stuff has anything to do with the actual RF mount specification.

Distortion correction is applied within the body of the camera; that's why you need firmware updates to be able to use new distorting lenses correctly.

Now if Sigma makes a distorting lens, they are going to have a tough time of it, persuading Canon to release a firmware update, which tells me Sigma won't be making distorting lenses.
Actually Sigma’s new 85mm f1.4 Art DG DN has a noticeable amount of distortion. It corrects perfectly fine with the lens profile but until it’s applied you can definitely see it. That was the trade off to make it smaller, and lighter than the competition but for IQ it even holds its own against the RF 85mm f1.2.

I could be wrong on this but I believe the rumour that Sigma won’t reverse engineer for RF. The impression I gets from them as a company is that they want their customers to have the best experience possible when using their products. Especially considering that they don’t have to when making E and L mount glass.
 
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But we've already seen that Canon releases new firmware right before releasing a heavily distorting lens. (I'm not talking about the very minor distortions the top end lenses produce, I'm talking about lenses like the 24-240.)
I’m not sure about that. My EOS R was on the original firmware (1.0.0), When I mounted my new 14-35, which like the 24-240 and 16/2.8 forces distortion correction, the camera displayed a warning that the lens might not function properly because it’s not supported by the camera firmware. However, the viewfinder showed an undistorted image at 14mm, and I couldn’t disable distortion correction in settings – the expected behavior with firmware support. The only issue I saw was that the ISO was fixed at 490 and it could not be changed.
 
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unfocused

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This is one of the things I love about this site. @Canon Rumors Guy posts that manufacturing capabilities have held Sigma up. So then we get four pages of forum experts making up the “real” reasons. Don’t confuse anyone with the facts.
 
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The transmission of a sheet of glass is 92%, and this is less than 100% due to 4% of light being reflected back from its front surface and another 4% from its rear. Multi-coat it and the transmission gets close to 100%. It is absolutely impossible for acrylic to have 20% more transmission than 92 or 99+%! And, it's basic optics that the transmission coefficient decreases as refractive index increases because reflection increases (Fresnel equation).

Technically, AlanF is correct. I should have said "an Acrylic Lens with embedded Adaptive Floating Optics and Computational Photography algorithms will be a 20% Brighter Lens" than using the term "Acrylic has 20% better transmissibility" . Those are two VERY DIFFERENT MEANINGS and AlanF's is the scientifically correct one. Technically, Acrylic has 92% transmission at 50 mm thickness so I would say it's still better than the typical glasses Canon uses.


FIRST THING IS FIRST: Please look at the links below to get a little educational series for y'all today before I discuss WHY our lens are 20% Brighter (i.e. have more light gathering ability at a given focal length)

In case anyone is wondering what AlanF is speaking of, I present to you the following Wikipedia Weblinks to show you a background of and to illustrate the concepts of refraction, diffraction, Fresnel Equations and Fresnel Lenses, general Interferometry, Fourier Transform and the famous old Bell Curve so you understand that we use ALL such concepts in designing and building high-end prime and zoom lenses!

Refraction:

Refractive Index:

Diffraction:

Fresnel Equations

Fresnel Lenses:

Interferometry:

Fourier Transform:

Normal Distribution (aka Bell Curve):

The Refractive Index of Typical Optical-grade Fluorite Glasses used in Canon's higher end glass would be 1.56 and Acrylic would be 1.49 which doesn't sound like a lot of difference between the two but it is. You actually want the LOWER NUMBER index so distortion is not as bad. Ideally, you want the same amount of distortion as through AIR (i.e. Index of Refraction at Sea Level at 18 Celcius is 1.0 in Air) The curvature of front and back portion of the lens elements is what gives you the "Distorted Look" of a typical lens. Ideally in modern imaging, you would want NO distortion at all.

The base reason though that Acrylic is so sought after for lenses is WEIGHT! It is much lighter than glass and with modern interferometry techniques and ray tracing, you can make a lens that is 20% BRIGHTER, SHORTER in LENGTH and LIGHTER in WEIGHT by 50% than the same lens done in Glass.

The Fresnel effect that AlanF speaks of distorts (Bends?!) the light path within the glass (or Acrylic) lens element itself and the optimum light path is technically UNKNOWN as it exits the back part of the lens giving rise to chromatic aberrations, fringing, scintillation and edge artifacts once it finally hits the image sensor itself. To compensate for this, you model your lens in an Optical-band ray tracing program which takes into account the lens material light absorption characteristics and refraction/diffraction properties and curvature of the lens element itself.

You then make a grid across the entire front and back of the lens elements and compare the CALCULATED path of incoming light rays to the 2D-XY grid of the sensor itself, which for expediency-sake, we use a SQUARE sensor aspect ratio at pixel resolutions such as 4096 by 4096, 8192 by 8192, 16384 by 16384 pixels that is within the lens mount circle area where a Medium Format, Full Frame, APS-C, Micro 4/3rds, 2/3rd sensor area would be optically placed and that matches the actual photosite size in microns we wish to model.

When you model your lens, the incoming light rays will have a highly specific light path that will end up falling on a specific photosite of the destination image sensor. You can use interpolation to model for in-between resolutions and larger/smaller sensor sizes. When the light ray at grid coordinate x:200, y:200 in from the upper-left corner of the front element of a lens is tracked, we want to ENSURE that through the ENTIRE light path, that the photon stream will fall on photosite grid location x:200, y:200 of the sensor and any deviation NEEDS to be compensated for via a set of lookup table based correction factors that are applied to luminance, chroma, saturation and actual coordinate position. The final CORRECTED pixel value will then represent an ideal pixel value of a light ray that has been optimally waveguided through the entire lens assembly.

When we designed our lenses, we first modeled them and raytraced them in software. Then, in the real world, we shot monochromatic light (i.e. a laser) at various wave lengths corresponding to the Red, Green, Blue, Yellow, Violet, etc rainbow colours within the optical EM bands. The reduction in amplitude, the slight frequency shift on light wave exit from the back element and the POSITION and coning (diffraction) of the exiting light path(s) compared to the incoming grid position at the front lens element for each sensor resolution was turned into a lookup table which we embed into each lens so that any camera obtains and then applies a pixel 2D-XY positional correction factor, a luminance value correction factor and a chroma value (i.e. colour value) correction factor which is applied to the photosite located at a specific 2D-XY position on the sensor. Since there are microlenses and colour filters put on top of each photosite, we also take THAT into account and model WHAT an ideal pixel value would be based upon a given focal length, iris setting, focus value, neutral density filter value, and other correction factors which we also build into our lookup tables.

This means the light paths and pixel values modeled from monochromatic light path ray traces will result in a proper correction factor being applied to each pixel in a 2D-XY grid that will result in a super-sharp, perfectly Bokeh'ed and stable/non-distorted image no matter the focal length and destination image sensor size and pixel count! Since we use MULTIPLE lens elements in a single lens body, ALL individual lens elements are modeled together as a singular UNIT so all individual distortions can be accounted for in our final pixel value lookup tables for each image sensor resolution and sensor size.

The real-time adaptive optics are ALSO taken into account so we can ESTIMATE what the ideal pixel value SHOULD be once it filters through various atmospheric effects and distortions at distances from below one metre up to 100 km.

This means in the hottest desert or roadway environments with all that heat shimmer boiling up from the desert plain or hot pavement, you will get an UNDISTORTED CRYSTAL CLEAR IMAGE that accurately represents what is actually there in the far background!

P.S.

Please note that ALL ABOVE DESCRIPTIONS are now Fully Free and Open Source
under GPL-3 Licence Terms for BOTH Hardware and Software. ANYONE and EVERYONE
is fully free and able to modify, create, manufacture, sell/resell lenses for any type of
imaging system using our designs with NO ROYALTY PAYMENTS REQUIRED so long
you follow ALL the tenets of the GPL-3 Open Source Licence Terms!

V
 
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It's really good to hear from you Harry!

Thank you for your likes of my posts!

Soon enough ANOTHER PDF file with the details of the NEW Open Source 16K Camera AND NEW all-Acrylic lens designs will be disclosed here on CanonRumors on a completely FREE AND OPEN SOURCE BASIS under GPL-3 Licence Terms for BOTH the hardware and software.

We will ALSO announce our 15mm PER PIXEL resolution of our ITAR-free UNCENSORED GLOBAL SATELLITE IMAGE SURVEY in Optical Bands, RADAR Bands and INFRARED Bands that has 48 bit colour (16 bits per colour channel) at 16k by 16k resolution slices using RGB+Depth pixel formats. Every Square Metre of Land on the ENTIRE EARTH will be surveyed at the full 15 millimeres PER PIXEL resolution with NOTHING BEING COVERED UP (i.e. NO Censorship!) and ALL imagery being made available for public use on a completely FREE AND OPEN SOURCE basis!

It will be MUCH BETTER than Google Earth Pro!

v
 
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This is one of the things I love about this site. @Canon Rumors Guy posts that manufacturing capabilities have held Sigma up. So then we get four pages of forum experts making up the “real” reasons. Don’t confuse anyone with the facts.
Except the CEO said one thing but here in the UK Sigma reps are saying something completely different. Again my local camera shop manager told me what a Sigma UK rep told him. It had nothing at all to do with manufacturing capacity but rather it was do with Canon.

Someone else mentioned that they spoke to a Sigma rep at the recent Photography Show event in Birmingham and again Canon was given as the reason why.

Maybe Sigma are at maximum capacity as well as being prevented by Canon from making glass for RF mount anyway. But the question remains. Why haven’t Tamron, Tokina, Voigtländer and Zeiss made glass for RF mount either?
 
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