The Canon EOS R3 will be 24mp, confirmed by EXIF data

Michael Clark

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Canon has said that these lenses were not designed for RF. They have also said that they released the RF versions of these lenses by popular demand, but that this was not the original plan. Presumably that means that more telephotos that were planned are still being actively worked on.
There was a thread covering this on Canon Rumors, and here is the source:

Thanks, I hadn't seen that as I was busy with a large shooting assignment that week.

Based on the DP Review writer's response, I don't think it was unreasonable to ask if those lenses had been developed with the RF system in mind.

"It was surprising to learn from Mr. Tokura that the EF 400 F2.8 and 600mm F4 professional telephoto lenses were not developed with future native RF support in mind originally, although it does at least explain the absence of a control ring from the new RF-mount versions."
 

Michael Clark

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It's often stated that among the prime requirements of sports and reportage photographers, is the ability to have small file sizes that can be rapidly transmitted straight to the picture desk - and that means JPEGs (or possibly low-res CR3 RAWs). That's what I hear and read regularly, so I'm guessing it's true.

I think you must be one of the few who shoot RAW for sports (I'm more than happy to be corrected :) ).

If you do your own processing in ACR, it implies that your work is non-urgent....
Is your photography for your own use, rather than for instant publication on the media?

Not all sports and reportage shooters have "instant" deadlines. The guys whose clients/employers want it five minutes before it happened are under increasing pressure to get images out as quickly as possible. But as data transmission rates have increased dramatically, more news/sports shooters are using raw in certain situations where it increases the odds of a better result.

In well lit major sporting venues, though, one who knows what they are doing can get JPEGs straight from camera that are so close to what one could do spending a lot more time processing raw files that it isn't worth the extra processing time. The lighting in major college and pro stadiums is like being inside a giant light box. It's bright, full spectrum, and no flickering. It's in times and places where the lighting is not so great that the benefits of raw make a difference. Crappy high school stadiums and gyms, for instance. The dimmer, more limited spectrum flickering light one finds in those places needs more raw color correction than bright, full spectrum, non-flickering light that most major sports venues now use.

Some news shooters have actually seen things go the other way in terms of deadlines. My hometown newspaper no longer publishes a print edition on Saturday. As a result, their staff photographer no longer has to file his photos of Friday night games by 10:30 p.m. to make the printing deadline. As long as his images are up by early Saturday morning when subscribers wake up and look online to see photos from Friday night's game, everyone is happy. Back when they still had two staffers (at the same paper only twelve or fifteen years ago they had four full-time staff photogs and a photo editor that rarely had to cover a shooting assignment), the newer, younger guy shot raw and processed in his car on his laptop during halftime and after the game. The older guy kept shooting JPEG. The newer guy's photos tended to have better color when his images were viewed online, but it made very little different in newsprint, which is incredibly lo-res and color limited. The newer guy is now "the photo staff" at a sister publication in a town fifty miles away since the last old-timer there retired a couple of years ago. The other guy is still in my hometown and still shooting JPEG most of the time, as far as I know. He has always used raw for feature photo illustrations and the like sometimes, too.

I used to shoot sports with JPEG due to handling speed issues. The buffers of the cameras I was using couldn't keep up when saving raw files. But as the capabilities of cameras improved, I moved to raw a long time ago. I don't have a hard deadline 20 minutes after the game is over. I'm not looking for a handful of images to publish in a newspaper or online and then forget it and move on to the next of several assignments the following day. I'm looking to get a lot more images that feature as many of the different participants from the team I'm covering as possible and put them in a place where parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles, etc. can buy prints or digital downloads of "their" player. Sometimes I see as many sales of high school football and marching band images in the spring near graduation time as I do during the fall, especially for seniors. Their parent are using them to create displays for graduation parties and the like.
 

Michael Clark

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Keep in mind that you are comparing the R3 to a 10 year old camera. That doesn't make sense. Certainly a 1DX is a great camera but technology doesn't stop and if that's what you want buy a 1DX.

The nine years old 1D X was 18 MP. The 20MP 1D X Mark III was introduced in March of 2020, barely over one year ago.
 

Michael Clark

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I'd buy a new 1992 Integra, but Acura rather small-mindedly doesn't make them any more.

Cars aren't improving nearly as rapidly as cameras (and in many respects are un-improving).

That aside the point you were making is a good one with respect to cameras.

Honda/Acura is brining back the Integra, reportedly in 2022.
 

Michael Clark

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It is well documented and obvious from their design. We'll see what native RF super-tele's look like with the 300, 500, or maybe even the 200-400.

You still haven't said what, exactly, has been "well documented.

What specific design features make it obvious?

Lens design advances with time. The II and III versions of many Great Whites were better than the older, original versions. Saying a native Super Telephoto RF lens created in the future is sharper because it is RF, rather than because it is a seven years newer design, proves nothing about the difference in mount of the older lens.
 
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Michael Clark

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For whatever reason Canon has deliberately chosen not to announce MP count for the R3.
I don't think they would allow the loaner R3s to spill the beans from exif data - they may as well announce it then.

Canon has never announced the MP count for any digital camera before the official release announcement. Never. Not one time.

Why do you act like this is the first time this has ever occurred?
 

stevelee

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In well lit major sporting venues, though, one who knows what they are doing can get JPEGs straight from camera that are so close to what one could do spending a lot more time processing raw files that it isn't worth the extra processing time. The lighting in major college and pro stadiums is like being inside a giant light box. It's bright, full spectrum, and no flickering.
Colleges have lighting geared for TV broadcasts. Over the past year, almost all sports have been broadcast if not on regular TV or cable, at least over ESPN+ or otherwise on line. Many fewer high schools can afford or see the need for that level of lighting quality.

A friend of mine shoots college sports professionally. I think he does pretty well, since he complained in spring of last year that cancellations had cost him $50,000 in income. I once asked him how he got such great color balance in his basketball shots. Video I have shot in the local college’s arena had greenish tints I couldn’t get rid of completely. I suspected gaps in the spectrum. He said that he has flash units up at the ceiling. I have never seen a flash go off during a game, so I don’t know how that works. The college replaced the lighting a couple years ago to give a better TV result, and he says they repositioned the lights better for last season. I have not tried shooting under the new lights, and of course have not been in the arena for over a year. Supposedly we will be able to attend games this fall. I have already bought my tickets. If so, I may take my G5X II along some time and shoot some video just to see how the light shows up.
 

Sporgon

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Why go to the hassle, additional overhead (processing, storage, etc.), and expense of a 50MP sensor if you're ultimately going to down sample to 20MP anyway? That makes absolutely no sense.
Of all the images taken with 50mp cameras how many are actually outputted at that size for people to see ? I would guess that it is a tiny fraction of one percent, and if that’s the case then most of the time the 50mp makes no sense. Actually as a long term 5DS user I can sympathise with your point of view. Reasons for 50mp have been debated adnauseam; there are some valid ones, but I’d suggest that 50mp shots are nearly always downsampled for viewing as a complete picture.
 
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neuroanatomist

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Of all the images taken with 50mp cameras how many are actually outputted at that size for people to see ? I would guess that it is a tiny fraction of one percent, and if that’s the case then most of the time the 50mp makes no sense. Actually as a long term 5DS user I can sympathise with your point of view. Reasons for 50mp have been debated adnauseam; there are some valid ones, but I’d suggest that 50mp shots are nearly always downsampled for viewing as a complete picture.
It’s all about future-proofing. Someday, an entire wall of everyone’s family/living room will be a display, probably at least 128K. We’ll all be sitting close to it using genetically-enhanced hyperacute vision. 50 MP will barely cut it – even with AI-driven dynamic upscaling, it will seem to our future selves like a half-melted Polaroid seems to us.
 
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SwissFrank

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important. My EF 24-105mm was recently stolen so I've just replaced it with the RF 24-105mm F4. In some ways it's a much better lens - sharper, smaller, MUCH faster AF. But in other ways it's inferior to the old EF model - e.g. the zoom ring is much stiffer, and the close spacing and identical rubbers of the zoom and focus rings mean that I often grab the focus ring when I want the zoom ring, and vice versa
WORD. Honestly I'm not happy with the design details of the RF lenses as far as this goes. I never remember turning the wrong thing on EF. I also would prefer the aperture be stated along with focal length, and in white not grey/silver.
 

Michael Clark

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Your presumptions are as wrong as your 'facts'. Just more bullish!t.

"Of the 45 states with sales and use taxes, 38 also have an individual income tax. Of these 38 states, in 2012 27 provided for taxpayers to report use tax obligations on the individual income tax return, and another six, including Minnesota, provide information about the use tax in the individual income tax booklets." (reference)

27 states providing for use tax reporting on individual returns means more than half of the country, a very far cry from your presumption that 'few do'.

You really should stop embarrassing yourself with your ongoing posts on this topic, it's rather pathetic and each reply only serves to make you look more foolish.

If you look at the list of states it's a good bit more than half the country in terms of population. Most of the states with the highest populations have both state income tax and require filers to report unpaid sales tax on items bought in other states. The states with no income tax are, for the most part, some of the least populated states - Florida and Texas being exceptions to both rules. Together Texas and Florida have just under 16% of the total U.S. population. The next most populous state without state income tax is Tennessee, the 16th most populous state with ≈2% of the total U.S. population.

California, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, and Ohio all have state income tax and require self reporting of unpaid sales taxes. Those five states alone account for 29% of the total U.S. population.
 

FrenchFry

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It’s all about future-proofing. Someday, an entire wall of everyone’s family/living room will be a display, probably at least 128K. We’ll all be sitting close to it using genetically-enhanced hyperacute vision. 50 MP will barely cut it – even with AI-driven dynamic upscaling, it will seem to our future selves like a half-melted Polaroid seems to us.
Farenheit 451?
 

Michael Clark

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Colleges have lighting geared for TV broadcasts. Over the past year, almost all sports have been broadcast if not on regular TV or cable, at least over ESPN+ or otherwise on line. Many fewer high schools can afford or see the need for that level of lighting quality.

A friend of mine shoots college sports professionally. I think he does pretty well, since he complained in spring of last year that cancellations had cost him $50,000 in income. I once asked him how he got such great color balance in his basketball shots. Video I have shot in the local college’s arena had greenish tints I couldn’t get rid of completely. I suspected gaps in the spectrum. He said that he has flash units up at the ceiling. I have never seen a flash go off during a game, so I don’t know how that works. The college replaced the lighting a couple years ago to give a better TV result, and he says they repositioned the lights better for last season. I have not tried shooting under the new lights, and of course have not been in the arena for over a year. Supposedly we will be able to attend games this fall. I have already bought my tickets. If so, I may take my G5X II along some time and shoot some video just to see how the light shows up.

Old school basketball shooters have been putting strobes in the rafters for years. In the last 10-15-20 years the lighting technology used in larger arenas has really improved to the point it's not really necessary to use strobes to fill in gaps in the spectrum any more. Some still do it because they like to shape the light more so than because they need to fill in the spectral gaps and compensate for flicker.

What many consider to be the greatest sports photo of all time, Neil Leifer's iconic color photo of Muhammed Ali standing over Sonny Liston in a very dimly lit gym in Lewiston, Maine after knocking him out in the first round of a fight for the World Heavyweight Title, was only possible with the slow color Ektachrome film he used because Leifer had spent several hours before the fight mounting a strobe (with a three second recycle time) in the rafters.

150522_SNUT_AliListon-Color.jpg.CROP.original-original.jpg


That's Leifer's boss at Sports Illustrated at the time, Herb Scharfman, seen between Ali's legs helplessly looking on from The Champ's backside along with many of the other "top" sports photographers of the day. Herb had pulled rank on the young Leifer and chosen the seat behind the judges table leaving Neil on the "back" side of the ring.

As for your green tint goes, remember that the green ←→ magenta "tint" axis is more or less orthogonal to the amber ←→ blue color temperature axis. So if the camera is automatically setting CT, then the WB may still be off. I almost always compensate a bit towards the magenta axis under stadium lights, though there is one venue that I see about once every two years (home and away region opponent) which has significantly less green than magenta and needs to be strongly biased the other way.
 
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Michael Clark

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I used to manually set WB and then batch correct in post. Then the AWB improved dramatically, especially AWBW, and people started asking for out of camera jpegs for social media at the events, so I shot RAW and jpeg with AWBW. It is very good and even when I use ColorChecker Passports to create lighting specific camera profiles the WB is normally within a hundred or so K and +/- single digit tint even when the profile colors need help.

AWB has improved so much over the years and the demands for instant delivery make it a very valuable tool.

Yep. And the Canon 1-Series and the Nikon Dn series seem to get it right better than even the Canon 5-series and Nikon D8n0 series bodies do, even though they all now have RGB+IR light meters to allow setting WB before the shot.
 
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Michael Clark

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Stop being condescending. Most knowlegeable photographers and certainly Jeff Cable, know how to edit exif files if one has an NDA in place. And he clearly mentions it on his blog that he would NOT disclose any information that Canon has not already released. The JPEGS that admin downloaded and read the metadata from originated from Jeff Cable, a long time Canon ambassador and Team USA sports photographer. Canon loans him and attendies cameras for many of his workshops. So why would he risk disclosing information that Canon has chosen to release at a later date? Simple, he didnt.

It is entirely possible Canon gave him the okay to "leak" it the way he did.
 

stevelee

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Old school basketball shooters have been putting strobes in the rafters for years. In the last 10-15-20 years the lighting technology used in larger arenas has really improved to the point it's not really necessary to use strobes to fill in gaps in the spectrum any more. Some still do it because they like to shape the light more so than because they need to fill in the spectral gaps and compensate for flicker.
####
As for your green tint goes, remember that the green ←→ magenta "tint" axis is more or less orthogonal to the amber ←→ blue color temperature axis. So if the camera is automatically setting CT, then the WB may still be off. I almost always compensate a bit towards the magenta axis under stadium lights, though there is one venue that I see about once every two years (home and away region opponent) which has significantly less green than magenta and needs to be strongly biased the other way.
I don’t know whether he still uses the strobe with the new lights. They were installed 3 seasons ago, and at first got into fans’ eyes. People started wearing caps. He said they have been reaimed, and I think moved in the process. And of course last season I saw the games just on TV or devices.

As for the greenish tint. some of that was from the color of the lights, but also, the seats are red. When I was shooting video of pick-up games, most of the seats across from me were empty, so the camera was seeing a sea of red. One year I did try making a custom color balance, and that didn’t seem to help.

I could correct color a little in Final Cut Pro X, but not well enough to suit me. I concluded that the spectrum of the lights was spotty. Fortunately, my audience didn’t care.

The games were after hours during basketball camp, when the boys mostly are having snacks and going to their dorms. The camp staff included current players and the incoming freshmen players as well as some alumni in from playing in Europe. A few older campers and some prospects might play. So hard-core fans enjoyed getting their first look at the new freshmen and at potential players on our court.

There was no telling who might show up, and that was part of the fun, too. We had a few players from the Charlotte Hornets a few years ago. Sometimes there are players from other colleges. Some years back, both Steph and Seth Curry came and played, while Seth was still at Duke.

I used to use the project to learn whatever new camera equipment I had, S120, iPhone 6S, 6D2, and I think G7X II. I didn’t get to try the G5X II, but I did shoot some football with that before I left for Italy that fall. I was in Denmark in 2019 the last time they had the pick-up games. They did have a camp this year, but just a day camp.

I think it was with one of the S cameras that I had accidentally put it in a mode that substituted magenta for grays. I didn’t even know it could do that until I was ready to edit. I was able to desaturate the magentas in FCP X, so no one noticed, and I learned how to turn off that mode.
 

Del Paso

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WORD. Honestly I'm not happy with the design details of the RF lenses as far as this goes. I never remember turning the wrong thing on EF. I also would prefer the aperture be stated along with focal length, and in white not grey/silv

Yes control ring design etc is very important. My EF 24-105mm was recently stolen so I've just replaced it with the RF 24-105mm F4. In some ways it's a much better lens - sharper, smaller, MUCH faster AF. But in other ways it's inferior to the old EF model - e.g. the zoom ring is much stiffer, and the close spacing and identical rubbers of the zoom and focus rings mean that I often grab the focus ring when I want the zoom ring, and vice versa. Hopefully the muscle memory will adapt soon...
A typical case of design over function...
 
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