The Canon EOS R3 will cost €6099, still waiting on USD pricing

[neuroanatomist]

Wow! $2400 for an R3 body. My friend, you are going to be waiting awhile, a long while......

The RP has a 26 MP sensor and retails for $1300, that's only $50 per MP. So the R3 should only cost $1200.

 

[jvillain]

Canon are going to have to slash the price of the 1D X Mk III if the R3 is that much cheaper and by the sounds of it that much better too. Good news for most people I guess!

Not at all. Canon is getting out of the DSLR business. If you still want one you pay a premium or move onto the new offerings and oh ya, buy some expensive lenses while your at it.

 

[RayValdez360]

At the risk of being pedantic, it's really not our call. Consider the meaning of the term, literally the ship that carries the flag, naval parlance for the command ship in a fleet. The ship carrying the admiral. The navy gets to choose which ship that is, if they want to put the admiral on a frigate instead of the aircraft carrier, the frigate is the flagship. In this case, the R3 is just a smaller aircraft carrier...a newer ship, in many ways a more capable ship, but Canon says the admiral isn't on it.

That is nice Canon says that but the people's flagship right now is the R5.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Canon is getting out of the DSLR business.

I really don't understand why people keep saying this. The fact is that so far in 2021, 43% of the cameras shipped have been DSLRs, and there are really only two companies competing in that space, Canon and Nikon. Three years ago, 46% of the cameras shipped were DSLRs, so it's not like DSLR sales are falling rapidly.

DSLRs represent a significant and relatively stable fraction of the ILC market, a fraction for which Canon dominates sales.

That means that either Canon is clueless because they really are getting out of the DSLR business, or that the people claiming Canon is getting out of the DSLR business are clueless because they have no understanding of the realities of the ILC market. My money is on the latter.

 

[rbielefeld]

I really don't understand why people keep saying this. The fact is that so far in 2021, 43% of the cameras shipped have been DSLRs, and there are really only two companies competing in that space, Canon and Nikon. Three years ago, 46% of the cameras shipped were DSLRs, so it's not like DSLR sales are falling rapidly.

DSLRs represent a significant and relatively stable fraction of the ILC market, a fraction for which Canon dominates sales.

That means that either Canon is clueless because they really are getting out of the DSLR business, or that the people claiming Canon is getting out of the DSLR business are clueless because they have no understanding of the realities of the ILC market. My money is on the latter.

The question I have is Canon going to develop and bring to market any new DSLRs in the future? If not, then it could be stated that Canon is getting out of the DSLR business. I have not heard of a new DSLR in development by Canon (rumored or otherwise), but I may have missed it.

 

[CanonGrunt]

Just saw Canon is pulling out of NAB this year. I wonder how that will affect the cinema product launches. I’ve been wondering how the video on the R3 will be, though I understand it’s not the main purpose of this camera. Still, seems promising all around.

 

[neuroanatomist]

The question I have is Canon going to develop and bring to market any new DSLRs in the future? If not, then it could be stated that Canon is getting out of the DSLR business. I have not heard of a new DSLR in development by Canon (rumored or otherwise), but I may have missed it.

In 2017, Canon launched 2 MILCs and 4 DSLRs.
In 2018, Canon launched 3 MILCs and 2 DSLRs (and that's counting the R and Ra separately).
In 2019, Canon launched 3 MILCs and 2 DSLRs.
In 2020, Canon launched 3 MILCs and 2 DSLRs.
In 2021, Canon hasn't launched any ILCs.

If we didn't know the R3 was going to be announced next week, we might conclude that Canon is getting out of the ILC business.

On Canon USA's website, there are 10 DSLRs and 11 MILCs listed for sale (ignoring various kits).

None of that sounds like Canon is getting out of the DSLR business any time soon. Will they, eventually? Sure. Then again, eventually the Sun will become a red giant and engulf the Earth.

 

[kaihp]

This topic has been discussed ad nauseam here, but here it is again.

(bobbit)

This is not the right forum to discuss this, so I will just say that I disagree with your opinion.

Now, let's return to our scheduled pointless bickering over specs:

• What's the buffer depth/size?
• How fast can the R3 write to a CFexpress card?
• What's the max burst length before it stutters? The measurements I saw (where?`) indicated that the R5 maxed out at roughly 300MB/sec, which is far below the write speed CFe cards (low end seem to be 800-1000MB/sec, high end 1600-1800MB/sec) and this could impact the maximum burst length
• How many shots can it make on a full charge? (with some meaningless standardized test)
• Which EF and RF lenses will support 12fps and 30fps shooting? - looks like my not-so-old EF 70-200 f/2.8L IS USM II can't do 12fps on the R5, which is a bummer
• Availability? First camera to first customer? General availability for us mortals?
• Which CFe cards and card readers should we use?
• EF-RF adapter have been sorted out: get the simplest EF-RF without control ring. If you have a specialist need for ND or CPOL, get the DI one (and be prepared to bleed out of your nose)

 

[Chig]

Yes and no. We have a 2 year warranty, while the US warranty is 1 year. Flying to the US and buying it here would not entitle your to the European warranty.
Here in DK, the VAT is 25% just to add insult to injury. But we do have universal healthcare, which is nice. Just don't go the the dentist. The doctors have managed to convince everyone that if we go to them payment should be covered by the universal healthcare, but if we don't go to an MD, heaven forbid, but someone else (including a dentist) damn you all the way and you need to pay out of your own pocket. (grumble).
€6100 is around +36% on the €4500 for the R5, so here in Denmark that would turn the 36.400DKK into an estimated 49.500DKK (slightly rounded up).
Ouch, but still in line with my guesstimate.

In New Zealand we have a sales tax of 15% and Canon sets a fairly high local price too of NZD$6,800 (including sales tax) for an R5 vs NZD$5,500 from B&H. However we have a 5 year unlimited warranty here vs the USA 1 year limited warranty.
Also if I go on an overseas trip I can buy it Duty Free for $5,900 ( local shops will send the camera for you to collect from the airport). If I buy it this way I'm only paying an extra $400 and get our great local warranty.
If the R3 is USD$5,500 (NZD$7,700) then Canon NZ will probably charge about NZD$8,000-$8,500 + sales tax =$9,200-$9,800.
If you're a professional here (I'm not) and are GST registered you can claim the GST(sales tax) back anyway.


Can people in Europe buy cameras Duty Free when they travel? Can they claim sales tax back if they're pros?

 

[rbielefeld]

In 2017, Canon launched 2 MILCs and 4 DSLRs.
In 2018, Canon launched 3 MILCs and 2 DSLRs (and that's counting the R and Ra separately).
In 2019, Canon launched 3 MILCs and 2 DSLRs.
In 2020, Canon launched 3 MILCs and 2 DSLRs.
In 2021, Canon hasn't launched any ILCs.

If we didn't know the R3 was going to be announced next week, we might conclude that Canon is getting out of the ILC business.

On Canon USA's website, there are 10 DSLRs and 11 MILCs listed for sale (ignoring various kits).

None of that sounds like Canon is getting out of the DSLR business any time soon. Will they, eventually? Sure. Then again, eventually the Sun will become a red giant and engulf the Earth.

Okay, bear with me as I am a simplistic thinker and slow on the uptake a lot of times. We are debating whether Canon is getting out of the DSLR business. So, if Canon does not release any additional DSLR camera bodies in the future, but relies on the DSLR models already on the market, does that not make the statement that Canon is getting out of the DSLR business an accurate one? Canon has not gotten out, because they still have DSLRs on the market a person can purchase, but they are getting out of the DSLR business, because they will not be offering any new DSLRs in the future. Of course Canon may still bring out a new DSLR, but I have not heard many entities stating there is a high likelihood of that happening. All in good fun.

 

[kaihp]

Can people in Europe buy cameras Duty Free when they travel? Can they claim sales tax back if they're pros?

You can only import things duty/VAT-free under a certain limit, when you are travelling (I think for Denmark it's around €300). Recently the EU abolished the minimum value limit, so now you get to pay VAT (and possibly duty) even from €0.01. In Denmark, that's not the killer for small value purchases - the PostNordf ixed "handling charge" at 160DKK (€21) is the killer. This makes buying from outside EU (I'm looking at you, UK!) a non-starter unless it is a major purchase (an R3 or a big white might be worthwhile).

If you are VAT registered, you can claim back the VAT (deduct it against the VAT you invoice).

 

[unfocused]

Okay, bear with me as I am a simplistic thinker and slow on the uptake a lot of times. We are debating whether Canon is getting out of the DSLR business. So, if Canon does not release any additional DSLR camera bodies in the future, but relies on the DSLR models already on the market, does that not make the statement that Canon is getting out of the DSLR business an accurate one? Canon has not gotten out, because they still have DSLRs on the market a person can purchase, but they are getting out of the DSLR business, because they will not be offering any new DSLRs in the future. Of course Canon may still bring out a new DSLR, but I have not heard many entities stating there is a high likelihood of that happening. All in good fun.

If Canon can migrate 90% of their DSLR customers to mirrorless they will get out of the DSLR business. If only 50% of their customers switch they will make new DSLRs. Anywhere in between is unknown.

 

[Chig]

“Replacement” I feel the word might be Discontinued!

Canon has this annoying habit of continuing to call models flagships even when newer models arrive and outperform them. Reviewers on Youtubers, JP for example was teasing Canon by calling the R3 a flagship even though he claimed Canon pacifically told him not to call the R3 a flagship.

I Googled “Flagship” and this is what it came up with

Definition of flagship ... : the best, largest, or most important one of a group of things

I must agree with “largest” but best… Just marketing and brand protection, I guess.

I’m not knocking the 1D series I spent most of my photography life shooting with one, I just find the terminology interesting

Not sure how the R3 will compare but the 1DXiii can acquire initial focus faster and more reliably than the R5/6 in high speed action and sometimes the R5/6 won't acquire focus at all even for static subjects like a small bird where it's focusing system can't "see" at all so you need to prefocus on a high contrast object at a similar distance first.
Apparently this is because the DSLR uses cross type focus sensors which no mirrorless cameras use as far as I know.

This is a crucial aspect that affects whether you get the shot or not which is probably why sports pros haven't switched to using R6s (or R5s) which have otherwise very similar specs and are much cheaper.

Be interesting to see whether the R3 has cross type sensors if that's possible with mirrorless or some other clever way of matching the functionality of top DSLRs in this area

 

[neuroanatomist]

Okay, bear with me as I am a simplistic thinker and slow on the uptake a lot of times. We are debating whether Canon is getting out of the DSLR business. So, if Canon does not release any additional DSLR camera bodies in the future, but relies on the DSLR models already on the market, does that not make the statement that Canon is getting out of the DSLR business an accurate one? Canon has not gotten out, because they still have DSLRs on the market a person can purchase, but they are getting out of the DSLR business, because they will not be offering any new DSLRs in the future. Of course Canon may still bring out a new DSLR, but I have not heard many entities stating there is a high likelihood of that happening. All in good fun.

Fair point. But since they do seem to be moving the upper side of the market to an emphasis on MILCs (more profitable, from what they’ve said), perhaps they are developing new downmarket DSLRs. If that’s the case, I would not expect we’d hear about that. I don’t recall ever seeing rumors or development announcements about new Rebel/Kiss/xxxD bodies, do you?

 

[Toglife_Anthony]

If Canon can migrate 90% of their DSLR customers to mirrorless they will get out of the DSLR business. If only 50% of their customers switch they will make new DSLRs. Anywhere in between is unknown.

I would argue a huge chunk of Canon's DSLR market share is entry-level Rebel cameras - these folks likely wouldn't know any difference between a DSLR and mirrorless and ultimately buy the Rebel because it's cheap and on the Costco, Best Buy, and WalMart shelves. MAYBE they're simply looking for a slight upgrade from a point-and-shoot (i.e. ability to change lenses). That being said, if Canon opts to replace their Rebel line with equivalent mirrorless cameras, they can effectively get out of the the DSLR business without losing much market share at all. If Canon pushes the envelope on cheap FF mirrorless cameras as one of the articles here indicated they may, it wouldn't make much sense to continue manufacturing not only DSLR's, but EF/EF-S lenses to go with it.

 

[rbielefeld]

Fair point. But since they do seem to be moving the upper side of the market to an emphasis on MILCs (more profitable, from what they’ve said), perhaps they are developing new downmarket DSLRs. If that’s the case, I would not expect we’d hear about that. I don’t recall ever seeing rumors or development announcements about new Rebel/Kiss/xxxD bodies, do you?

Nope, that is true. They don't tell us lemmings about such things.

 

[rbielefeld]

I would argue a huge chunk of Canon's DSLR market share is entry-level Rebel cameras - these folks likely wouldn't know any difference between a DSLR and mirrorless and ultimately buy the Rebel because it's cheap and on the Costco, Best Buy, and WalMart shelves. MAYBE they're simply looking for a slight upgrade from a point-and-shoot (i.e. ability to change lenses). That being said, if Canon opts to replace their Rebel line with equivalent mirrorless cameras, they can effectively get out of the the DSLR business without losing much market share at all. If Canon pushes the envelope on cheap FF mirrorless cameras as one of the articles here indicated they may, it wouldn't make much sense to continue manufacturing not only DSLR's, but EF/EF-S lenses to go with it.

I think this may be how this whole DSLR to MILC migration works out with Canon.

 

[Del Paso]

You can only import things duty/VAT-free under a certain limit, when you are travelling (I think for Denmark it's around €300). Recently the EU abolished the minimum value limit, so now you get to pay VAT (and possibly duty) even from €0.01. In Denmark, that's not the killer for small value purchases - the PostNordf ixed "handling charge" at 160DKK (€21) is the killer. This makes buying from outside EU (I'm looking at you, UK!) a non-starter unless it is a major purchase (an R3 or a big white might be worthwhile).

If you are VAT registered, you can claim back the VAT (deduct it against the VAT you invoice).

If you buy in the USA for, say, $5000, are living in Germany, the end-bill will be $6677 (VAT $1066+ custom duties $611).
And the flight to New York isn't free either...
If you try to cheat and get caught, the R or the lens will cost about $10000. No comment

 

[neuroanatomist]

I would argue a huge chunk of Canon's DSLR market share is entry-level Rebel cameras - these folks likely wouldn't know any difference between a DSLR and mirrorless and ultimately buy the Rebel because it's cheap and on the Costco, Best Buy, and WalMart shelves. MAYBE they're simply looking for a slight upgrade from a point-and-shoot (i.e. ability to change lenses). That being said, if Canon opts to replace their Rebel line with equivalent mirrorless cameras, they can effectively get out of the the DSLR business without losing much market share at all. If Canon pushes the envelope on cheap FF mirrorless cameras as one of the articles here indicated they may, it wouldn't make much sense to continue manufacturing not only DSLR's, but EF/EF-S lenses to go with it.

That is happening to some extent in Japan, where MILC adoption is higher but cheap DSLRs still sell.

In North America, there remains a perception that DSLRs are ‘real cameras’ and that may be difficult to overcome in broad swaths of the region. The ~1% per year shift in market share from DSLR to MILC that we’ve seen for the past 5 years suggests getting out of DSLRs is quite a ways off.

 

[Chig]

No, it’s not – they function in the same way. Both DSLRs and Canon MILCs use phase detect AF (PDAF). Mirrorless cameras can also use contrast detect AF, which is substantially slower but can be more accurate.

Canon’s dual pixel AF (DPAF) is the AF technology used in their MILCs (and in Live View on newer DSLRs) and uses split pixels to detect the phase difference, whereas DSLRs in viewfinder shooting use a dedicated AF sensor with paired line sensors. But DPAF is still phase-detect AF, the principle is the same – using the phase difference to determine the magnitude and direction of movement needed to achieve a match in phase (which is ‘in focus’).

With DPAF, the pixels are all split in the same direction, meaning they only detect phase differences in one orientation. Similarly, line-type sensors on a DSLR only detect a single orientation. If you've been in photography for a while, perhaps you remember the split prism in the middle of the focusing screen of a manual focus SLR. The 'split' was horizontal, so you had to look for a vertical feature to focus on for the prism to be effective. That's an analogy for how phase-detect works (except the DPAF pixels are split vertically, meaning they detect horizontal features only).

The dedicated PDAF sensors in very early DSLRs had only one direction of sensitivity like Canon's current MILCs, but soon they added line pairs in the orthogonal direction, first for just the center point, later for other points as well. The two pairs of line sensors at 90° to one another form a cross-type AF point that is sensitive to both horizontal and vertical features, and that's something that the DPAF used in Canon's MILCs cannot do, i.e. it is an advantage of DSLR AF. Even newer/higher end Canon DSLRs added diagonal crosses as well.

On the flip side, those AF point line pairs on a DSLR AF sensor are a fixed distance apart. That distance determines both the maximum lens aperture needed to use the AF point, and also the accuracy of that point. Those aspects are inversely related – the wider the baseline, the larger the lens aperture needed to use the AF point. So, there were f/5.6 AF points that were less accurate but worked with all EF lenses, and there were f/2.8 AF points with a wider baseline and greater accuracy that only worked with fast lenses. With DPAF, since all of the image sensor pixels are effectively AF points, they work with narrower apertures, which is we we're seeing f/8 and even f/11 max aperture lenses for MILCs.

Canon has a patent on a sensor with adjacent pixels split in orthogonal orientations, which will give MILCs cross-type focusing if/when implemented.

View attachment 200117

But until then (or until quad pixel AF, which would accomplish the same goal by splitting every pixel both horizontally and vertically), cross-type AF and the ability to focus on features of both horizontal and vertical orientation remains an advantage of DSLRs over MILCs, at least in a technical sense. Given that most things in the real world have features that exist in multiple orientations, the single-orientation DPAF focusing will do just fine in most situations.

Perhaps the R3 will have this feature from the patent ?