*UPDATED* Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

[scyrene]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

Still no replacement to prehistoric 50mm Compact macro or update to ancient 180mm usm macro. Also how about Rt(slave mode only) upgrade to speedlight 320ex? That would be useful for a people wanting RT flashes on budget.

What would you like to improve on the 180L? Just improving for it's own sake to rise the prices? The lens is perfect as is... still one of the sharpest ever made, after 2 decades.

I went with the Sigma 180mm f/2.8 OS, rather than the Canon 180L, because the former had a half stop extra aperture wide open, and ~4 stop IS. Those made it better for my purposes. A Canon lens with those features would be an improvement, even if the optical performance was kept the same.

Yes. f2.8 is very important on Macrolenses... can't live without shallow depth of field. I think weathersealing is more important in the field... and Sigma does nothing about it. I don't think it's impossible to improve the 135L but there are much more lenses who are more necessary to get improved like the 50mm 1.4 or the 50L.

Weather sealing is a good point. I personally tend not to pay attention to it, but I can see why it would be important to some.

 

[neonlight]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

Would the "interesting lens" be the 600 f/4 DO?
Where's the 50-300 DO?

 

[jeffa4444]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

Yes, that pretty much sums me up, the guy who owns approx 50 cameras and 250 lenses including all new Canon, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic etc stuff. Someone who owns and uses that clearly will have far less knowledge than a Canon user who only knows and uses 1 body and 3 lenses. That is pretty logical.

Are you serious about 50 cameras and 250 lenses? If you are, I can only conclude one of two things. You own a rental house and keep this stock so others can rent it or you have some serious hoarding issues and need professional help.

I would say that I agree with your point that someone who owns 50 bodies and 250 lenses probably does have far less knowledge than a professional who consistently uses one body and three lenses. The normal arc in most professions, including photography, is for someone to start out with a limited range of equipment, acquire more equipment as they progress and then as they master their craft begin shedding some of that equipment to focus only on the basics so they can get most comfortable and knowledgeable about their equipment.

Most of the really great photographers keep their equipment fairly simple.

Yes, I rent out all the equipment as well. Plus it's a write off, and especially the lenses keep most of their value and are some sort of wealth diversification. All in all this sort of ownership is nothing crazy at all and isn't something to brag about or that can be admired. But having all tools available and being able to compare is a great help. In the end I only would like to use 1 camera and 1 lens for the best possible results. It's just not possible yet, and for each project there are different needs regarding weight, logistics, focal lengths etc. Right now unfortunately it is necessary to own Canon EF, Nikon F, Sony E, MFT and medium format products if you want to be able to achieve the best in any niche. Less than approx 5-8 cameras and 100+ lenses won't do it! Example astro photography: no way around a D810A with F-mount lenses. The list would go on like this for any specialty project.

Your confusing yourself and missing some basis understanding of lenses and formats. The shallow depth of field of large format lenses at relatively slow stops compared to 35mm, compared to APS-C, compared to MFT etc. produces a different smoother bokah and allows a different story-telling whether stills or moving image. Most MFT lenses are not well corrected and rely on in-camera software adjustment, similarly APS-C lenses tend to have less quality control from lens to lens reflecting the price point. Lenses are a compromise particularly zooms and designers have to trade something to get lenses acceptable across a given range. Primes can be made to a higher standard because they are less complex but here again quality is directly affected by price.

Then throw in whether you want high contrast or low contrast lenses, whether you want smooth bokah or not, whether you want close focus or not, whether you want a good say 100mm but its good as a 1:1 macro all will produce a compromise.
We rent equipment and I'm glad to say we have many many choices because perfection is in the eye of the beholder not a bench engineer.
Now as to cameras your also away with the fairies!

 

[SkynetTX]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

Both the EF-S 17-55mm and the EF-S 15-85 lenses need an update: the focusing ring should be wider (at least 20-25 mm) and placed at the front of the lens and the zoom ring should be moved behind it to the back of the lens.

 

[AvTvM]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

Both the EF-S 17-55mm and the EF-S 15-85 lenses need an update: the focusing ring should be wider (at least 20-25 mm) and placed at the front of the lens and the zoom ring should be moved behind it to the back of the lens.

the focusing ring on Canon EF-S lenses should be obliterated, done away with, cut out. Me and millions of rebel-lish soccer moms rely on Canon autofocus. we paid for it. we use it. it works. we don't twiddle focus rings!

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

the focusing ring on Canon EF-S lenses should be obliterated, done away with, cut out. Me and millions of rebel-lish soccer moms rely on Canon autofocus. we paid for it. we use it. it works. we don't twiddle focus rings!

Because no Rebel owner ever checks his focus for landscapes in LiveView, shoots astro, uses macro lenses, uses tilt-shift lenses, turns AF off and zone-focuses for street, etc.

#delusional

- A

 

[Roy2001]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

No 5DS II?

 

[tron]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

No 5DS II?

After a so ridiculous list of wished lenses finally a reasonable wish for a useful update. I would like that but I do not think we will get one. Maybe 2018...

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

No 5DS II?

See attached (from NorthLight). A few thoughts:

1) The pace of camera body development appears to be slowing. You can chalk this up to the general photography market contracting due to rise of cell phone photography, a large global recession in the last 10 years limiting peoples' discretionary spending, or possibly Canon proliferating the number of brands they now carry. (Consider: 10 years ago, Canon had 5 lines of interchangeable lens digital cameras -- now there are 13).

2) Can you name a single instance in which a higher end non-gripped rig (5D / 6D / 7D) got a new body in less than three years?

3) Is anyone applying pressure to Canon on the resolution front? Does anyone have a higher res FF camera than the 5DS nearly two years since it was announced?

Canon isn't Sony. Canon doesn't spew new bodies every 6 seconds to impress people.

A 5DSR2 (or 7D3) in 2017 seems wildly, wildly improbable given all the reasons above. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it would be the exception heard round the world. I don't see it happening.

- A

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

No 5DS II?

After a so ridiculous list of wished lenses finally a reasonable wish for a useful update. I would like that but I do not think we will get one. Maybe 2018...

I don't own a 5DS/5DS R. Where is it presently letting you down, just curious?

Do you want even more resolution?
Do you think switching to on-chip ADC will dramatically improve your photography?
Is there some feature-envy with something the 5D4 got that you'd really like?
Do you really want/need a tilty-flippy LCD?

I don't ask that as a wind-up, I'm actually curious. I've heard nothing but either unadulerated praise (by the resolution lovers) or 'you know what, it's actually pretty damn good' from cynics that predicted noise would be stratospheric or that it would be a 'good light' camera (for tripod / studio shooting only) and were pleasantly surprised when they used it.

So what would a 5DS2 have that you don't have today?

- A

 

[privatebydesign]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

Time lines of old releases are not as relevant when models jump user brackets.

The 5DS/R has effectively replaced the 1DS line for all but a few users. These high end users demand the best and are not too fussed about the price. Any improvements to sensors like dual pixels, or colour depth or especially low iso DR they will want. Things like connectivity are a must in a lot of situations, I shoot tethered now over 50% of the time even on location, and the 5DS/R even with the WiFi card is not the solution. AF whilst not being as critical speed wise is very critical accuracy wise, when you start using all those pixels the images need to have the detail inaccurate AF will rob them of in heart beat.

It's not that the 5DS/R lets users down so much as it needs to keep up with Canon's own innovations and development.

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

Thanks, PBD, I appreciate the details and insight. I'm just trying to size up this ask and understand it.

It's not that the 5DS/R lets users down so much as it needs to keep up with Canon's own innovations and development.

...and it surely will. When it is updated more or less four years after release.

Time lines of old releases are not as relevant when models jump user brackets.

Sure, but a quick refresh will be a terrible hit on excess and obsolescence burden of the original 5DS/5DSR rigs unless that 5DS2/5DSR2 pulls tons and tons of new people in or existing users up the feeding chain (from crop, from a 6D, etc.). Do you really see that happening? Is there enough sexy goodness in a potential 5DS2 to pull the 80D/7D2/6D masses into a $3500/$3700 market to cover the losses of a 2.5 year lifecycle original model?

The 5DS/R has effectively replaced the 1DS line for all but a few users. These high end users demand the best and are not too fussed about the price.

Your list of nice-to-haves is entirely fair, but I'm just lost why one camp of photographers is worthy of a faster update than everyone else. A bus comes (more or less) every four years for the major brands, and we get what we get and start the four year-ish wait all over again. That's the deal.

This all sounds like 1Ds level service / 'best status' expectations being channeled into an ask for a newer camera. Is that fair, or am I pegging this wrong? Is a future 5DS2 the FF rig everyone will own someday and I'm just missing it? (Because if that's the case, sure, Canon should speed that one up! )

- A

 

[tron]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

No 5DS II?

After a so ridiculous list of wished lenses finally a reasonable wish for a useful update. I would like that but I do not think we will get one. Maybe 2018...

I don't own a 5DS/5DS R. Where is it presently letting you down, just curious?

Do you want even more resolution?
Do you think switching to on-chip ADC will dramatically improve your photography?
Is there some feature-envy with something the 5D4 got that you'd really like?
Do you really want/need a tilty-flippy LCD?

I don't ask that as a wind-up, I'm actually curious. I've heard nothing but either unadulerated praise (by the resolution lovers) or 'you know what, it's actually pretty damn good' from cynics that predicted noise would be stratospheric or that it would be a 'good light' camera (for tripod / studio shooting only) and were pleasantly surprised when they used it.

So what would a 5DS2 have that you don't have today?

- A

If you were referring to me it is not letting me down because I do not have it. I have a 7D2 a 5D4 and 2 5D3 (of which I will sell one). I think it is too much to get a 5DsR too but if a 5DsII was introduced I could probably substitute 7D2 with if it had a decent buffer and fps count.

In fact it could also consolidate 5D3 and 7D2 either in a super telephoto or in 100-400. The latter combination could be a super portable solution both for general use and birds.

I do not want a tilt/flip screen. I like them just as they are. Finally I wouldn't like to get one near the end of its cycle. For now I will continue with my 7D2 for birding and I will exchange it with 5D4 when light gets worse...

 

[privatebydesign]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

Thanks, PBD, I appreciate the details and insight. I'm just trying to size up this ask and understand it.

It's not that the 5DS/R lets users down so much as it needs to keep up with Canon's own innovations and development.

...and it surely will. When it is updated more or less four years after release.

Time lines of old releases are not as relevant when models jump user brackets.

Sure, but a quick refresh will be a terrible hit on excess and obsolescence burden of the original 5DS/5DSR rigs unless that 5DS2/5DSR2 pulls tons and tons of new people in or existing users up the feeding chain (from crop, from a 6D, etc.). Do you really see that happening? Is there enough sexy goodness in a potential 5DS2 to pull the 80D/7D2/6D masses into a $3500/$3700 market to cover the losses of a 2.5 year lifecycle original model?

The 5DS/R has effectively replaced the 1DS line for all but a few users. These high end users demand the best and are not too fussed about the price.

Your list of nice-to-haves is entirely fair, but I'm just lost why one camp of photographers is worthy of a faster update than everyone else. A bus comes (more or less) every four years for the major brands, and we get what we get and start the four year-ish wait all over again. That's the deal.

This all sounds like 1Ds level service / 'best status' expectations being channeled into an ask for a newer camera. Is that fair, or am I pegging this wrong? Is a future 5DS2 the FF rig everyone will own someday and I'm just missing it? (Because if that's the case, sure, Canon should speed that one up! )

- A

No, and I don't see why they'd need to. Most 5DS/R users are either business users so can claim depreciation in three years to zero or are well heeled amateurs who don't really care they just want to see if the latest will offer anything 'better' for them. They are not 70D and 6D upgraders so why should the 5DS/R MkII be? Besides, the MkII will come out at a premium and the MkI is still selling at well above $3,000 for the more popular R. NOS ones would still command over $2,000 so the used ones could float around that figure, $1,500 depreciation in three years for a digital body sounds pretty good to me.

As for the rest, who knows? But almost every 5DS/R owner I know of would upgrade because they take their output very seriously.

Besides the elephant in the room is the parts. The 5DS/R is built off many 5D MkIII parts, from a manufacturing standpoint it makes no sense to make 5D MkIII parts, 5DS/R parts and 5D MkIV parts, it makes much more sense to harmonise sooner rather than later and base a 5DS/R model off the current 5D model.

 

[pj1974]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

Both the EF-S 17-55mm and the EF-S 15-85 lenses need an update: the focusing ring should be wider (at least 20-25 mm) and placed at the front of the lens and the zoom ring should be moved behind it to the back of the lens.

Ergonomics are very much a personal factor (and can even change with time).

The placement of the zoom and focus rings on my Canon EF-S 15-85mm are ideal for me. I prefer the configuration of zoom ring at the front, and the focus ring closer to the body. (I have also used the Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 and enjoy its ergonomics).

I have used the Canon 70-200mm f/2.8 ii and find while it balances ok, I would also prefer the zoom ring at the front. Preferred ergonomics may be due to the way different people hold their camera and lens combo.

The IQ of the 15-85mm and 17-55mm are very good, practically L level (but being an EF-S lens, doesn't get the L designation). And yes, I own several other lenses, including L glass. The IQ of these 2 lenses can be improved upon in minor ways (as we've seen in some of the latest Canon lenses which are improvements on their predecessors).

Regards

PJ 8)

 

[tcmatthews]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

Both the EF-S 17-55mm and the EF-S 15-85 lenses need an update: the focusing ring should be wider (at least 20-25 mm) and placed at the front of the lens and the zoom ring should be moved behind it to the back of the lens.

Ergonomics are very much a personal factor (and can even change with time).

The placement of the zoom and focus rings on my Canon EF-S 15-85mm are ideal for me. I prefer the configuration of zoom ring at the front, and the focus ring closer to the body. (I have also used the Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 and enjoy its ergonomics).

I have used the Canon 70-200mm f/2.8 ii and find while it balances ok, I would also prefer the zoom ring at the front. Preferred ergonomics may be due to the way different people hold their camera and lens combo.

The IQ of the 15-85mm and 17-55mm are very good, practically L level (but being an EF-S lens, doesn't get the L designation). And yes, I own several other lenses, including L glass. The IQ of these 2 lenses can be improved upon in minor ways (as we've seen in some of the latest Canon lenses which are improvements on their predecessors).

Regards

PJ 8)

PJ I agree with you on the 15-85mm it is a great lens. I just have not been using it much after moving to full frame. If I it needs improvement in any areas it would be:

• fix the distortion at 15mm
• Better build quality
• Make it faster 2.8 -4.5 instead of 3.5-5.6 or something like that

There is nothing wrong with the location of the zoom and focus. In actual use I never really notice the zoom placement vs focus. Not to mention it is there because of the physical lens design. I would like to see some of the EF-s lenses have similar finish to the EOS-M lenses. I think that if newer better plastics or some thin metal the 15-85mm could be made smaller/lighter without compromising the durability.

The Canon 17-55f2.8 IS could use updated IS.

If there was any other reason to update the other EF-s lenses them it would be to add the nano USM and the power zoom accessory.

 

[dsut4392]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

The way I look at your scenario above is that just as much as it allows a Nikon user to try a Canon body without abandoning their Nikon lenses, it allows a Canon user to dabble in some interesting Nikon lenses instead of remaining faithful. In Sony's case, doing this was a great move as they had a very limited range of native lenses when the A7 launched, but for Canon there is more risk than benefit.

[truncated]

Good points, but I see it a little differently. I see dabbling with camera bodies being a better chance to steal some business than dabbling with lenses. If you could use the Nikkor 14-24 f/2.8 on a future Canon FF mirrorless rig, I doubt a Canon user would say "Ooh that lens feels nice.... I think I'll try a completely different ergonomic setup and menu system based on how this lens performs."

But I think the converse could actually happen. A longtime Nikon user, looking to build a small kit for travel, a simple landscape setup, etc. may opt for the Canon setup (if first to market) and use their Nikkor glass. Then there is a chance to impress and potentially steal some business.

- A

Sure, but unless they hop in their time machine, Canon are hardly going to be "first to market" with a FF mirrorless rig with a short flange distance. That ship sailed three years ago. Canon would have to make one hell of a leap to release a better mirrorless rig in 2017 than Sony is capable of.
I get where you're coming from about a compact travel setup, and I've looked long and hard at all the A7 series as they have been released. But frankly the lenses make up 75% of the weight and bulk for me, so saving a little on the body makes no real difference (6D shooter). Besides which, I still can't stand the EVF experience, and don't like the way they chew through batteries either (my OM1 would run the meter for years on one little button cell, and could still shoot fine with no battery at all).

 

[douglaurent]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

I don't even want to use any other system than Canon.

So despite your protestations, Canon are actually doing a lot right. You have all that gear from so many manufacturers and you still prefer to use Canon. Yet from what you write anyone would think they are on the downward slope and have been for a while.

So which is it - either Canon has problems or Canon is getting it right in 90% of the situations and what you are talking about is wanting them to produce a camera that does 100%. No manufacturer will ever do that these days which sort of puts all your comments in context.

So tell me, from your point of view let's hear what canon are doing right?

Canon is great on all points I didn't criticze in detail. Canon is like a sports world champion who is too lazy for excercising, or whose coach (in this case marketing dept) chooses to limit training, then unnecessarily ending up with ranking second, third or fourth in certain tournaments or games.

 

[douglaurent]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

Yes, that pretty much sums me up, the guy who owns approx 50 cameras and 250 lenses including all new Canon, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic etc stuff. Someone who owns and uses that clearly will have far less knowledge than a Canon user who only knows and uses 1 body and 3 lenses. That is pretty logical.

Are you serious about 50 cameras and 250 lenses? If you are, I can only conclude one of two things. You own a rental house and keep this stock so others can rent it or you have some serious hoarding issues and need professional help.

I would say that I agree with your point that someone who owns 50 bodies and 250 lenses probably does have far less knowledge than a professional who consistently uses one body and three lenses. The normal arc in most professions, including photography, is for someone to start out with a limited range of equipment, acquire more equipment as they progress and then as they master their craft begin shedding some of that equipment to focus only on the basics so they can get most comfortable and knowledgeable about their equipment.

Most of the really great photographers keep their equipment fairly simple.

Yes, I rent out all the equipment as well. Plus it's a write off, and especially the lenses keep most of their value and are some sort of wealth diversification. All in all this sort of ownership is nothing crazy at all and isn't something to brag about or that can be admired. But having all tools available and being able to compare is a great help. In the end I only would like to use 1 camera and 1 lens for the best possible results. It's just not possible yet, and for each project there are different needs regarding weight, logistics, focal lengths etc. Right now unfortunately it is necessary to own Canon EF, Nikon F, Sony E, MFT and medium format products if you want to be able to achieve the best in any niche. Less than approx 5-8 cameras and 100+ lenses won't do it! Example astro photography: no way around a D810A with F-mount lenses. The list would go on like this for any specialty project.

Your confusing yourself and missing some basis understanding of lenses and formats. The shallow depth of field of large format lenses at relatively slow stops compared to 35mm, compared to APS-C, compared to MFT etc. produces a different smoother bokah and allows a different story-telling whether stills or moving image. Most MFT lenses are not well corrected and rely on in-camera software adjustment, similarly APS-C lenses tend to have less quality control from lens to lens reflecting the price point. Lenses are a compromise particularly zooms and designers have to trade something to get lenses acceptable across a given range. Primes can be made to a higher standard because they are less complex but here again quality is directly affected by price.

Then throw in whether you want high contrast or low contrast lenses, whether you want smooth bokah or not, whether you want close focus or not, whether you want a good say 100mm but its good as a 1:1 macro all will produce a compromise.
We rent equipment and I'm glad to say we have many many choices because perfection is in the eye of the beholder not a bench engineer.
Now as to cameras your also away with the fairies!

There are also endless lists with improvements or disadvantages regarding the Nikon F, Sony E and Micro Four Thirds system of course. But this is a forum about the future of Canon products, who obviously will have to show some improvements over older Canon products. And the features Canon has to add are obviously those things that their competitors already do much better than them. These things need to be mentioned, and everything else that other systems or competitors do worse is completely irrelevant here when it comes to a consumer message to Canon.

 

[Mikehit]

Re: Here's an Updated 2017 Canon Roadmap

I don't even want to use any other system than Canon.

So despite your protestations, Canon are actually doing a lot right. You have all that gear from so many manufacturers and you still prefer to use Canon. Yet from what you write anyone would think they are on the downward slope and have been for a while.

So which is it - either Canon has problems or Canon is getting it right in 90% of the situations and what you are talking about is wanting them to produce a camera that does 100%. No manufacturer will ever do that these days which sort of puts all your comments in context.

So tell me, from your point of view let's hear what canon are doing right?

Canon is great on all points I didn't criticze in detail. Canon is like a sports world champion who is too lazy for excercising, or whose coach (in this case marketing dept) chooses to limit training, then unnecessarily ending up with ranking second, third or fourth in certain tournaments or games.

So guess which competition Canon ends up winning a lot of the time - yep, the ones that interest a vast majority of the client base. The majors.
Which ones does it end up third or fourth with not too much worry? Yep, the minor ones. The ones with small spectator numbers.

To carry your analogy further - it is not about being too lazy for exercising, but sports players enter minor tournaments to keep their hand in and keep their skills ticking over. The ones they are really interested in are the majors and all other activities (training and smaller tournaments) are timed to peak three or four times a year at the events that really matter. The trainer agrees with the player how and when they will peak and where they will concentrate their training in the areas that show best return.

Canon DSLR = Novak Djokovic. Proven competitor and winner
Sony mirrorless = Nick Kyrgios. Erratic. Some nice tricks but does not really have a package that troubles the leaders.

Neat analogy you picked up there