What’s next for the Canon EOS R5 and Canon EOS R6?

[3serious]

Well, that's great. I ordered my R5 from Best Buy on 7/9 at 803AM, and they canceled my order without explanation on 7/27. Guess I will be getting it from a different company in November.

 

[privatebydesign]

It's truly amazing what lengths people go through to convince everyone this camera is perfectly fine as it is, and Canon should not have done anything more to mitigate the constnt heat buildup somehow.
Canon has marketed the movie modes heavily. From the original presentation in this order: 20 fps - AF - ISO 51k - 45MP - 4K120 - 8K

So yeah, it's on the feature list and some people would like it to work without three asterisks behind each video mode. To be clear, I do not expect this camera to work in 8k without limitations, that would be absurd. However shooting 4k you have the choice between 4k120, 4k60 and 4k30 HQ (which all overheat), and 4k30 either line-skipped or cropped, which each brings it's own problems. So your choice is either overheating modes or otherwise flawed modes. Not to mention the R6, which overheats in all 4K modes.

People talking about "noone needs to record this long" fail to see that the heat countdown starts the second you turn on the camera, which certainly does not help any workflow.

I frequently do 4 hour video assignments with two or more cameras that yield about an hour of footage. This is no cinema production, just something anyone with some skills can do on the side. Currently doing this with an 1DX2 (4K60, but no CLog) and a 5D4 (CLog, but no 4K60).
Is it too much to expect a new camera to make this easier? Instead I have to keep an excel sheet in my head when which camera might overheat and which mode I can still use without running down the timer too much, all the while switching off all cameras at the slightest hint of apause.

Is this the video future anyone wanted?

I'm happy for you if you shot photos only, really. This is a great camera. But just because you don't need video doesn't mean the problems shouldn't be fixed.

For the record, I would be happy with up to 4K60 without overheating, and the camera not heating up as much in standy. I'm fine with special modes (4K120 and 8K) running down the clock. Is that still too much to ask from a 4400€ camera in a world where video on ILCs has been common (and expected) for years?

Also you guy do realize that if the camera heats up in standby, that this will degrade ISO performance even if you're not using it? How much is anyone's guess. But is that really what you want, a camera that degrades the longer you let it sit turned on?

For the record I have my R5 preordered and am planning to work around the limitations, hopefully it'll be fine with an external recorder. But I really should not have to rely on hope in this pricerange...

Well take a look at this test then where side by side in 4k60 the Sony α7S III overheats before the R5, twice.

 

[DBounce]

So my R5 was just delivered and I snapped a few quick pictures of my dog. Wow this things AF is the best I have used. It soooo easy to get perfect shots that I look like an absolute god of photography and I'm not even trying. I use to think that my 1DXMk2 was so easy it was "like" cheating.... but the R5 is not "like" cheating... It "IS" cheating. Easily the best AF I have ever experienced.

Now to the drama: When I first received the body I was thinking it might be broken, because it was acting very strangely. The camera arrived with the included battery not charged, so I popped in a off-brand on that was charged up and tried to power it up. After a long delay it displayed a message asking if the battery was a genuine Canon battery. I selected no but the camera did not display the expected setup screen... or menus. I shut it off, but it did not power down. Finally I pulled the battery out and depressed the shutter button, thinking it would disperse any stored charge. After reinserting the battery the same thing happened again. Finally I decided to try it again. but this time using the included battery. Thankfully, this time it booted successfully and allowed me to complete setup.

After completing setup in inserted I ADATA SD card rated at V90. The R5 did not like this card at all. The menus would not display quickly. The camera could not format it even though it was write enabled. And the read speed were beyond slow. Fortunately, I had some other SD cards laying around. So I repeated the process with a SanDisk. This time everything worked flawlessly. The take away is the R5 can work with third party batteries, but not on first boot. And secondly, this camera is a bit picky with which SD cards it will work with.

I haven't gotten into the overheating issues yet. In fact, I have not recorded any video yet. With the initial issues behind me, I can tell you this camera seems to perform amazingly. It feels solid and sure in hand. The screen is bright and responsive. If the video side lives up to my expectation I will be quite happy with this purchase.

 

[crazyrunner33]

For me, the overheating problem is less of a concern considering that I'm not shooting docs. That said, Canon NEEDS to address this at some point because it's gonna drive video people to the A7SIII.

What I'm more concerned about is H.265. My Macbook Pro stutters when editing H.265 in general so I'm very concerned about editing 4K 60FPS, 10-bit, 4:2:2 footage...

HVEC 4:2:2 is going to be an issue for both Sony and Canon. And I don't think the fanboys who only care about tech specs know the magnitude of this issue.

Source:

If you're editing on an underpowered machine or laptop that's limited by heat, then proxy files are your best friend. Use them, they'll make your life infinitely easier.

 

[Deleted member 378221]

Well take a look at this test then where side by side in 4k60 the Sony α7S III overheats before the R5, twice.

I have seen both his videos. My takeaway from this and other tests is that the Sony works a lot better in "normal" temperatures (unlimited), but at least the R5 does not degrade in direct sunlight. I sometimes do have daylight shoots in blazing sun, but my assumption from all the material I've seen is that the Sony would recovery a lot faster when put in a less strict environment temporarily (like half an hour indoors). The R5 even overheats in studio settings with AC on and takes sometimes up to two hours to recover fully.

I would not take this video and use it as an argument that the A7S3 overheats faster than the R5 in general. It does so in this, very specific test. And it was not tested how long each camera would take to recover in a normal climate, and how long you could shoot again after waiting e.g. 10 minutes.

Still, thanks though.

 

[Bert63]

For me, the overheating problem is less of a concern considering that I'm not shooting docs. That said, Canon NEEDS to address this at some point because it's gonna drive video people to the A7SIII.

Which also overheats - sometimes faster than Canon.

 

[crazyrunner33]

I have seen both his videos. My takeaway from this and other tests is that the Sony works a lot better in "normal" temperatures (unlimited), but at least the R5 does not degrade in direct sunlight. I sometimes do have daylight shoots in blazing sun, but my assumption from all the material I've seen is that the Sony would recovery a lot faster when put in a less strict environment temporarily (like half an hour indoors). The R5 even overheats in studio settings with AC on and takes sometimes up to two hours to recover fully.

I would not take this video and use it as an argument that the A7S3 overheats faster than the R5 in general. It does so in this, very specific test. And it was not tested how long each camera would take to recover in a normal climate, and how long you could shoot again after waiting e.g. 10 minutes.

Still, thanks though.

Correct. This shows while the Canon's electronics aren't exposed much to the ambient heat, it also means it doesn't release its heat. Tight weather sealing and materials that do not transfer heat results in holding onto heat like hot coffee in a Yeti cup.

I'm curious what the Sony's recovery time is given that it's more affected by ambient temperature and transferring heat from the sun.

 

[BakaBokeh]

lol woke up to 10 pages of this. Disadvantage of my time zone I guess.

• The notion that the R5 is flawed stems from a super vocal minority. Yes we are more likely to get commentary from YouTube. Guess who YouTube consists of? They are video-centric creators. So of course they are latching onto the heat limiting time constraints of video recording. This has been exacerbated by the release of the Sony A7SIII which appears to have not much by way of limitations to its recording times. It very conveniently ignores what a nearly flawless stills camera the R5 is. And it pooh pooh's the paltry 12MP sensor, and pretty bad Sensor Stabilization. Yes I'm certain that the Karen's of the world are a minority even though it doesn't feel like that. That's because they happen to be screaming the loudest. Same for Video First YouTubers... and even worse if they happen to be Sony Fanboi's. Yeah... I just compared them to Karen's.
• I am not excusing Canon. They could have foresaw this backlash. Imagine if they marketed the 8K and 4KHQ as 'burst mode only.' Don't even say how long it is. The market perception actually changes. Most would have assumed these are what they are, specialty features used in short spurts. Focus on how it can record unlimited in 4K Normal and Cropped modes, then expectations would have been managed. Imagine everyone thinking these would last only in 2-5 minute clips then be told, actually, you get 4K120 for 15 minutes! and 8K for 25 minutes! or whatever it is. The narrative is different at that point, and we don't see as much of this manufactured outrage.
• As far as if we get a recall... I really have no clue what to expect. As an engineer, I don't know what feasible options could address the heat limitations outside of firmware. What could they possibly do from a physical standpoint that would fix or at least help? Someone mentioned maybe a 'newer' batch of sensors or processors will actually run cooler. I don't know, that seems crazy to release a camera then recall it to swap out sensors or processors. If there is some crazy easy fix, I am curious as to what it could be. The issue is internal heat. How to efficiently move heat inside the camera to the outside? Maybe there is somewhere in the body where they can install a heat conductive surface, which can then be accessed outside of the camera by contact? Then you can add whatever peltier cooling device on the outside to pull the heat out? I don't know. This is just wild to me.
• From what I can tell, the issue with Codec's being difficult to work with is not that it's H.265. It has more to do with the Chroma format being 4.2.2. Current GPU's can work with H.265 it's just that they can work with 4.2.0 and even 4.4.4... but not 4.2.2. So that means it becomes something the Processor has to deal with. It sucks for the time being, but I'm sure GPU's will be able to handle it in the future. If you are having problems editing with it, looks like you'll have to transcode to a friendlier editing codec for the time being.
• My last thought... I think Canon can absolutely silence the critics by just releasing a R5C. It's essentially an R5 that sacrifices weather sealing for active/passive cooling for unlimited recording times. Most of the tech is already there... its tweaking to the body. Also Eliminate the 29 minute record limit. Maybe develop a video oriented battery grip which adds a full size HDMI 2.1 port, maybe SDI. XLR inputs, D-Tap. Lol maybe the grip is a bit much, but I don't think it'd be hard to do that with the body. The vocal minority that make up the video shooter youtube community would lose their minds. I mean, I would too.

Amazon says I'm getting my R5 between Aug 4-10. I guess I made the cut. Hope so.

 

[Deleted member 378221]

I'm curious what the Sony's recovery time is given that it's more affected by ambient temperature and transferring heat from the sun.

I guess it greatly depends on the ambient temperature. And while it sucks that it overheated in 20-something minutes, at least it does not do so in all situations, which the R5 kinda does.
Also you do have an easier chance to remove the heat in an emergency (cold air, fridge) from the A7S3 compared to the sealed R5. I think I would prefer the magnesium allow body used as a heatsink at the cost of more environmental influence.

As a sidenote this was a very extreme test, he was measuring camera body temperatures of around 60°C. You would not be able to handhold that anymore without gloves.

 

[Deleted member 378221]

Which also overheats - sometimes faster than Canon.

Please, try reading the past few posts and try to see things a little more differentiatedly. Only because the Sony can be brought to overheat faster in a very specific, harsh test environment, does not mean it has generally more heat issues than the R5, which overheats even in AC environments.

This is what I mean with the lengths people go to. It does not matter what the Sony does in one specific test, for me it matters what the R5 does in 95% of the tests (aside from 4K30, line-skipped that likely looks worse than my cropped 5D4 1:1 readout).

Would have loved to test the R5 against my cameras, but I'll probably get it in a week or two according to my canon dealer.

 

[navastronia]

lol woke up to 10 pages of this. Disadvantage of my time zone I guess.

• The notion that the R5 is flawed stems from a super vocal minority. Yes we are more likely to get commentary from YouTube. Guess who YouTube consists of? They are video-centric creators. So of course they are latching onto the heat limiting time constraints of video recording. This has been exacerbated by the release of the Sony A7SIII which appears to have not much by way of limitations to its recording times. It very conveniently ignores what a nearly flawless stills camera the R5 is. And it pooh pooh's the paltry 12MP sensor, and pretty bad Sensor Stabilization. Yes I'm certain that the Karen's of the world are a minority even though it doesn't feel like that. That's because they happen to be screaming the loudest. Same for Video First YouTubers... and even worse if they happen to be Sony Fanboi's. Yeah... I just compared them to Karen's.
• I am not excusing Canon. They could have foresaw this backlash. Imagine if they marketed the 8K and 4KHQ as 'burst mode only.' Don't even say how long it is. The market perception actually changes. Most would have assumed these are what they are, specialty features used in short spurts. Focus on how it can record unlimited in 4K Normal and Cropped modes, then expectations would have been managed. Imagine everyone thinking these would last only in 2-5 minute clips then be told, actually, you get 4K120 for 15 minutes! and 8K for 25 minutes! or whatever it is. The narrative is different at that point, and we don't see as much of this manufactured outrage.
• As far as if we get a recall... I really have no clue what to expect. As an engineer, I don't know what feasible options could address the heat limitations outside of firmware. What could they possibly do from a physical standpoint that would fix or at least help? Someone mentioned maybe a 'newer' batch of sensors or processors will actually run cooler. I don't know, that seems crazy to release a camera then recall it to swap out sensors or processors. If there is some crazy easy fix, I am curious as to what it could be. The issue is internal heat. How to efficiently move heat inside the camera to the outside? Maybe there is somewhere in the body where they can install a heat conductive surface, which can then be accessed outside of the camera by contact? Then you can add whatever peltier cooling device on the outside to pull the heat out? I don't know. This is just wild to me.
• From what I can tell, the issue with Codec's being difficult to work with is not that it's H.265. It has more to do with the Chroma format being 4.2.2. Current GPU's can work with H.265 it's just that they can work with 4.2.0 and even 4.4.4... but not 4.2.2. So that means it becomes something the Processor has to deal with. It sucks for the time being, but I'm sure GPU's will be able to handle it in the future. If you are having problems editing with it, looks like you'll have to transcode to a friendlier editing codec for the time being.
• My last thought... I think Canon can absolutely silence the critics by just releasing a R5C. It's essentially an R5 that sacrifices weather sealing for active/passive cooling for unlimited recording times. Most of the tech is already there... its tweaking to the body. Also Eliminate the 29 minute record limit. Maybe develop a video oriented battery grip which adds a full size HDMI 2.1 port, maybe SDI. XLR inputs, D-Tap. Lol maybe the grip is a bit much, but I don't think it'd be hard to do that with the body. The vocal minority that make up the video shooter youtube community would lose their minds. I mean, I would too.

Amazon says I'm getting my R5 between Aug 4-10. I guess I made the cut. Hope so.

This is a very good post, especially what you say about how the camera has been marketed and how it could have been marketed. Wish you worked at Canon!

 

[Krispy]

lol woke up to 10 pages of this. Disadvantage of my time zone I guess.

• The notion that the R5 is flawed stems from a super vocal minority. Yes we are more likely to get commentary from YouTube. Guess who YouTube consists of? They are video-centric creators. So of course they are latching onto the heat limiting time constraints of video recording. This has been exacerbated by the release of the Sony A7SIII which appears to have not much by way of limitations to its recording times. It very conveniently ignores what a nearly flawless stills camera the R5 is. And it pooh pooh's the paltry 12MP sensor, and pretty bad Sensor Stabilization. Yes I'm certain that the Karen's of the world are a minority even though it doesn't feel like that. That's because they happen to be screaming the loudest. Same for Video First YouTubers... and even worse if they happen to be Sony Fanboi's. Yeah... I just compared them to Karen's.
• I am not excusing Canon. They could have foresaw this backlash. Imagine if they marketed the 8K and 4KHQ as 'burst mode only.' Don't even say how long it is. The market perception actually changes. Most would have assumed these are what they are, specialty features used in short spurts. Focus on how it can record unlimited in 4K Normal and Cropped modes, then expectations would have been managed. Imagine everyone thinking these would last only in 2-5 minute clips then be told, actually, you get 4K120 for 15 minutes! and 8K for 25 minutes! or whatever it is. The narrative is different at that point, and we don't see as much of this manufactured outrage.
• As far as if we get a recall... I really have no clue what to expect. As an engineer, I don't know what feasible options could address the heat limitations outside of firmware. What could they possibly do from a physical standpoint that would fix or at least help? Someone mentioned maybe a 'newer' batch of sensors or processors will actually run cooler. I don't know, that seems crazy to release a camera then recall it to swap out sensors or processors. If there is some crazy easy fix, I am curious as to what it could be. The issue is internal heat. How to efficiently move heat inside the camera to the outside? Maybe there is somewhere in the body where they can install a heat conductive surface, which can then be accessed outside of the camera by contact? Then you can add whatever peltier cooling device on the outside to pull the heat out? I don't know. This is just wild to me.
• From what I can tell, the issue with Codec's being difficult to work with is not that it's H.265. It has more to do with the Chroma format being 4.2.2. Current GPU's can work with H.265 it's just that they can work with 4.2.0 and even 4.4.4... but not 4.2.2. So that means it becomes something the Processor has to deal with. It sucks for the time being, but I'm sure GPU's will be able to handle it in the future. If you are having problems editing with it, looks like you'll have to transcode to a friendlier editing codec for the time being.
• My last thought... I think Canon can absolutely silence the critics by just releasing a R5C. It's essentially an R5 that sacrifices weather sealing for active/passive cooling for unlimited recording times. Most of the tech is already there... its tweaking to the body. Also Eliminate the 29 minute record limit. Maybe develop a video oriented battery grip which adds a full size HDMI 2.1 port, maybe SDI. XLR inputs, D-Tap. Lol maybe the grip is a bit much, but I don't think it'd be hard to do that with the body. The vocal minority that make up the video shooter youtube community would lose their minds. I mean, I would too.

Amazon says I'm getting my R5 between Aug 4-10. I guess I made the cut. Hope so.

From what I'm aware of, the 30 minute recording time has to do with a tax law classifying cameras that record over 29:59 as cinema cameras and have added tax to them, hence why they are limited and companies have cinema lines. They could remove the cap and just pay the tax, but they would either lose profit, or just pass it on to us and we pay more for a camera. That being said, some people say that that law was rolled back, but I'm not 100% sure?

Good thoughts overall.

 

[privatebydesign]

I have seen both his videos. My takeaway from this and other tests is that the Sony works a lot better in "normal" temperatures (unlimited), but at least the R5 does not degrade in direct sunlight. I sometimes do have daylight shoots in blazing sun, but my assumption from all the material I've seen is that the Sony would recovery a lot faster when put in a less strict environment temporarily (like half an hour indoors). The R5 even overheats in studio settings with AC on and takes sometimes up to two hours to recover fully.

I would not take this video and use it as an argument that the A7S3 overheats faster than the R5 in general. It does so in this, very specific test. And it was not tested how long each camera would take to recover in a normal climate, and how long you could shoot again after waiting e.g. 10 minutes.

Still, thanks though.

I wasn't using it as an argument for anything, I was merely adding data. You mentioned 4k60 and I had just watched the video in which he said he specifically ran the test in that resolution so thought it relevant. I have no doubt the Sony would be a better performing long form video capture device in most situations but it isn't without limits and in your chosen resolution might be incapable of filling your need. Mind you choose different resolutions and both cameras can effectively run continuously.

Having said that one question I have that nobody pointing to the Sony as a 'better' camera has yet answered, How long does the Sony α7S III shoot 8k before it overheats?

 

[SteveC]

Well, that's great. I ordered my R5 from Best Buy on 7/9 at 803AM, and they canceled my order without explanation on 7/27. Guess I will be getting it from a different company in November.

Shopping at Best Buy is its own punishment.

 

[davidhfe]

It's truly amazing what lengths people go through to convince everyone this camera is perfectly fine as it is, and Canon should not have done anything more to mitigate the constnt heat buildup somehow.
Canon has marketed the movie modes heavily. From the original presentation in this order: 20 fps - AF - ISO 51k - 45MP - 4K120 - 8K

So yeah, it's on the feature list and some people would like it to work without three asterisks behind each video mode. To be clear, I do not expect this camera to work in 8k without limitations, that would be absurd. However shooting 4k you have the choice between 4k120, 4k60 and 4k30 HQ (which all overheat), and 4k30 either line-skipped or cropped, which each brings it's own problems. So your choice is either overheating modes or otherwise flawed modes. Not to mention the R6, which overheats in all 4K modes.

1) Yes. Canon oversold it. We all know now, knew before a single credit card was charged. The camera is perfectly fine. These are not mutually exclusive statements.

2) Every... Single... Body... In this class bins, skips or crops. No other body offers the options the R5 does. Stop the drama like it's some god damn Sophie's choice.

3) The R6 overheating is a screwup and I ain't got nothing good to say there.

Yes, I am annoyed at Canon for the info drip drip drip on this one. We thought it was the jesuscam and it turns out it's only the best high res hybrid body ever made. Woe woe woe onto us.

 

[Deleted member 378221]

The notion that the R5 is flawed stems from a super vocal minority. [...] It very conveniently ignores what a nearly flawless stills camera the R5 is. [...]

While certain people are quite loud regarding the video limitations, I am glad that they are. I don't think anyone is denying this is an amazing stills camera, and I'm looking forward to that part. However I need my cameras to fit multiple use cases and I cam glad that some people have done neutral tests regarding video recording. And the verdict ist that if you leave the camera on in any way, it eats into your recording time, and recovery times are a large issue. So I'm not sure why it's important that a vocal minority is leading this, when in this very specific case they're absolutely right.

Imagine if they marketed the 8K and 4KHQ as 'burst mode only.'

The problems is 4K regular is line skipped, which is of lesser quality. Also 4K60 is kinda expected in this pricerange, and that overheats. I am not mad about 8K and 4K120 being specialty modes. But proper quality 4K30 and 4k60? Yeah, that'd actually be nice.

What could they possibly do from a physical standpoint that would fix or at least help?

More aggressive power management in standby would help the silent heat buildup. Also any extra cooling in the form of copper or even heatpipes (they come in smartphones nowadays, should theoretically have been possible in a camera. Not sure about retrofit, that's going to be tough.

 

[davidhfe]

The problems is 4K regular is line skipped, which is of lesser quality. Also 4K60 is kinda expected in this pricerange, and that overheats. I am not mad about 8K and 4K120 being specialty modes. But proper quality 4K30 and 4k60? Yeah, that'd actually be nice.

Price range, or class? In price range you've got lots of options. In terms of a high res camera... are there any?

 

[Deleted member 378221]

1) Yes. Canon oversold it. We all know now, knew before a single credit card was charged. The camera is perfectly fine. These are not mutually exclusive statements.

2) Every... Single... Body... In this class bins, skips or crops. No other body offers the options the R5 does. Stop the drama like it's some god damn Sophie's choice.

3) The R6 overheating is a screwup and I ain't got nothing good to say there.

See, and again valid criticism is brushed off as "how could you expect it to work like advertised, that's your fault".

Short round:
1) This is an argument pro Canon? I don't get it. It is not perfectly fine for video, and like it or not that's an important part of ILCs these days.
2) It's not "drama", calling it "complaining about Sophie's choice" however is quite the dramatization. Not helping teh discussion in any way. And not every body in this class has not a single video mode without caveats. Also no other camera takes two hours to recover fully after a 30 minute shoot in 4k.

Yes, I am annoyed at Canon for the info drip drip drip on this one. We thought it was the jesuscam and it turns out it's only the best high res hybrid body ever made. Woe woe woe onto us.

Best hybrid body? Well, for photos: yes. For video: meh.

 

[navastronia]

From what I'm aware of, the 30 minute recording time has to do with a tax law classifying cameras that record over 29:59 as cinema cameras and have added tax to them, hence why they are limited and companies have cinema lines. They could remove the cap and just pay the tax, but they would either lose profit, or just pass it on to us and we pay more for a camera. That being said, some people say that that law was rolled back, but I'm not 100% sure?

Good thoughts overall.

That's amusing if true, given how few takes longer than 29:59 there are in film!

 

[Staz]

I do feel this topic is kind of prodding my anxiety, I've been tweeting my dealer and said, for Gods sake, just let me know if I've made the cut......

Nah...missed the boat and I cancelled my pre order to let you have it too.