Rest well Canon EOS 7D series [CR2]

[YuengLinger]

I doubt Canon can make a 32mp sensor for the APS-C that doesn't have horrible noise. They would be better off buying Sony APS-C sensors and putting them in that line. But, who knows, maybe they have found a breakthrough.

Now would be a nice time to reveal the breakthrough!

 

[slclick]

Far fetched I know in the light of the R system releases but there is another possibility the 7D may be dead but aps-c dslr may not be. A new line? Anything is possible. I am not in the camp that thinks dslr's are waning, I just think there are more choices coming with evolutionary changes...not replacements.

 

[albron00]

I use to have a lot of great moments with Canon: 500D, two 7Ds, 5Dm3, 760D..
Now I'm happy A7m3 user...
Sorry Canon.

 

[Michael Clark]

How have those ‘major disappointments that Canon has been criticized for’ affected Canon’s market share?

That's impossible to definitely answer. Had Canon had fast readout sensor over the last five years, who is to say their market share would not have been much greater than it is?

It's like trying to answer a question about a patient who had unsuccessful brain surgery and died before coming out from under the anesthesia: "How long would the patient have lived if the surgery had not been attempted?" No one knows for sure.

What would have happened if Seattle had ran the ball on second and goal from the half yard line? No one knows for sure, but the overwhelming general consensus is that they would have won the Super Bowl instead of lost it.

 

[Michael Clark]

I wonder if this toll remains when using mirrorless bodies and DPAF focusing. Is the limitation caused by the DSLR 's focusing screen?

The DSLR's focusing screen has nothing to do with PDAF. The light that reaches the dedicated PDAF sensor follow a different path and never passes through the focusing screen. The reason Canon slows down AF with extenders is because as light is magnified by an extender it is spread out over a larger area and the intensity per unit area is reduced. The sensels in the PDAF sensor have less light to work with, thus the signal-to-noise ratio goes down and the noise floor increases relative to the signal.

 

[neuroanatomist]

That's interesting re: battery capacity and slower AF.

It might be interesting if it were true, but it’s not.

You don't lose anything the EF lens can do on an EF body when it is used on an R body, except perhaps slower AF due to lower battery capacity. But that is also true when EF lenses are used on EF bodies with smaller batteries - AF speed of the same lens is slower on a Rebel than on a 1D X. When attached to a 7D Mark II it's somewhere in between.

Battery capacity, which is rated in mAh, has nothing to do with AF speed. A properly functioning battery will deliver a consistent voltage during use, and for most current Canon ILC batteries that is 7.2 V DC. That’s the voltage delivered by the LP-E6/N (x0D, xD, R), the LP-E17 (some Rebel/xxxD, M5/6, RP), and LP-E12 (SL1, M50). Battery capacity merely determines how long that battery can continue to deliver the designated voltage. Any differences in AF speed are due to camera firmware differences, not battery capacity.

The exception are the 1-series bodies, which are able to drive lens AF motors faster because the batteries deliver a higher voltage (11.1 V DC).

 

[Michael Clark]

Don't worry Michael, you'll be glad to hear that I'm not joining this thread from the boardroom's of Canon's product development department.

What makes you think what I post here is any kind of appeal to Canon's decision makers? Their choice has fairly obviously been made. What I'm posting here is not an attempt to alter their business strategy. I'm merely making personal observations about what I think may be the possible motivations behind those decisions.

Trying to influence Canon's business plan would be a total waste of time.

Apparently, so is trying to explain to those who do not shoot the use cases for which many have found cameras such as the 7D Mark II very useful why things that many of those non-users think would be just as useful for those use cases aren't actually as useful as they might think.

 

[Graphic.Artifacts]

The exception are the 1-series bodies, which are able to drive lens AF motors faster because the batteries deliver a higher voltage (11.1 V DC).

I believe Canon has described the 7D mark II as being capable of delivering the higher voltage as well when attached to a telephoto prime. It may have to ramp up the voltage internally. My 7D2 seemed to focus my 600 faster than a 5D but probably not quite as fast as a 1 series.

edit: according to posters claiming to be quoting Chuck Westfall it's a firmware feature of the 1Dx's and 7D2 but not included in 5D's. Supposedly those bodies provide a 1 sec busrt of addition power to the AF motors to overcome the inertia of the large glass elements in the big whites. After the lenses/AF motors are moving the power drops back to normal. Maintaining the higher power might make focusing unstable.

It's Canon so I doubt we'll ever know for sure.

 

[Michael Clark]

It might be interesting if it were true, but it’s not.


Battery capacity, which is rated in mAh, has nothing to do with AF speed. A properly functioning battery will deliver a consistent voltage during use, and for most current Canon ILC batteries that is 7.2 V DC. That’s the voltage delivered by the LP-E6/N (x0D, xD, R), the LP-E17 (some Rebel/xxxD, M5/6, RP), and LP-E12 (SL1, M50). Battery capacity merely determines how long that battery can continue to deliver the designated voltage. Any differences in AF speed are due to camera firmware differences, not battery capacity.

The exception are the 1-series bodies, which are able to drive lens AF motors faster because the batteries deliver a higher voltage (11.1 V DC).

Voltage doesn't do anything. Current (amperage) does. If it's low enough amperage, 5 Megavolts volts going through a body won't do much other than make your hair stand on end.

On the other hand, very low voltage at high current can kill you instantly.

It's a documented fact that the same lenses with heavier AF elements move noticeably more slowly on cameras with lower current available than on cameras with higher current available. It's also a documented fact that as the battery in the same camera, such as a 1D X is depleted, the AF speed slows down.

 

[Michael Clark]

The 17-55 2.8 IS is practically glued onto one of my 7dmkIIs. It's an amazing combo. Lighter than a 5DmkIV and 24-70 2.8 , has IS but minus the weather sealing, performs pretty well. A marriage made in heaven

I do know one guy that mates a 7D2 with the EF 17-55/2.8 while using a 70-200/2.8 with a 1D X. I also know several dozen that use the 7D2 only with longer lenses and use their FF cameras (mostly 5 or 6 series) with wider lenses. I also know several that use the 1D X/1D X II with big whites, their 7D2 with a 70-200 and a 5D as their "wide" body. There are always exceptions to the general trend.

 

[Michael Clark]

Wait until they discontinue it and buy at a huge discount.

Like the EF 24-70 f/2.8 L when it was replaced by the EF 24-70mm f/2.8 L II?

The going price of the original rose from about $1,300 to around $1,800 for the few that were still available when the II was introduced at $2,300. For the most part they all sold out just before Tamron announced the SP 24-70mm Di VC at $1,200 and the used price for a fairly pristine copy of the original EF 24-70mm f/2.8 L that had just been selling for $1,800 new plunged to less than $800.

 

[Michael Clark]

Now would be a nice time to reveal the breakthrough!

Several years ago would have been an even nicer time to reveal such a breakthrough.

 

[neuroanatomist]

That's impossible to definitely answer. Had Canon had fast readout sensor over the last five years, who is to say their market share would not have been much greater than it is?

It's like trying to answer a question about a patient who had unsuccessful brain surgery and died before coming out from under the anesthesia: "How long would the patient have lived if the surgery had not been attempted?" No one knows for sure.

You’re right, the question, “How has it affected market share?,” cannot be definitively answered.

Let me rephrase the question in a way that reflects my intent when I posed it. Has the slow sensor readout that you claim is responsible for all the disappointments over the past five years resulted in a loss of market share for Canon? That can be definitively answered, because Canon has not lost market share over the past five years, rendering any cause moot. The logical conclusion from these ‘disappointments’ not having a negative effect on market share is that, despite the disappointment of critics, they had no meaningful impact in the real world. (Feel free to woulda-shoulda-coulda about market share Canon could have gained from a faster sensor readout, it’s just empty speculation whereas the facts above are just that – fact.)

 

[Michael Clark]

A 5D IV might be an even better complement.

That all depends upon the use case. The 5D IV is a great camera for a lot of things, but it is not better at everything than a 7D2 is. Personally, I'd love to be able to replace my aging 5D3 with a 5D4, but the numbers just don't add up for it right now.

 

[Michael Clark]

You’re right, the question, “How has it affected market share?,” cannot be definitively answered.

Let me rephrase the question in a way that reflects my intent when I posed it. Has the slow sensor readout that you claim is responsible for all the disappointments over the past five years resulted in a loss of market share for Canon? That can be definitively answered, because Canon has not lost market share over the past five years, rendering any cause moot. The logical conclusion from these ‘disappointments’ not having a negative effect on market share is that, despite the disappointment of critics, they had no meaningful impact in the real world. (Feel free to woulda-shoulda-coulda about market share Canon could have gained from a faster sensor readout, it’s just empty speculation whereas the facts above are just that – fact.)

One can just as easily say that Canon has seen declining sales during this period and be just as factually correct. One can also say that Canon has lost market share in the FF camera segment, which is admittedly a fairly small portion of overall ILC sales. But it is also a segment that is shrinking at less than the overall rate of ILC sales.

You can spin it however you want, but it is still very, very likely that Canon would have sold more cameras between circa 2014 and 2019 if their sensors performed at the same level in terms of readout speed as their competitors' do and Canon had leveraged that performance to offer things such as uncropped and higher frame rate high resolution video. It's also a near certainty that Canon could have sold more 7D Mark III units over the last 18-24 months or so than the number of 7D Mark II units they have sold if the only real improvement had been putting the 80D sensor in the 7D body.

 

[Michael Clark]

I believe Canon has described the 7D mark II as being capable of delivering the higher voltage as well when attached to a telephoto prime. It may have to ramp up the voltage internally. My 7D2 seemed to focus my 600 faster than a 5D but probably not quite as fast as a 1 series.

edit: according to posters claiming to be quoting Chuck Westfall it's a firmware feature of the 1Dx's and 7D2 but not included in 5D's. Supposedly those bodies provide a 1 sec busrt of addition power to the AF motors to overcome the inertia of the large glass elements in the big whites. After the lenses/AF motors are moving the power drops back to normal. Maintaining the higher power might make focusing unstable.

It's Canon so I doubt we'll ever know for sure.

RIP Chuck. He was a great guy on so many different levels.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Voltage doesn't do anything. Current (amperage) does. If it's low enough amperage, 5 Megavolts volts going through a body won't do much other than make your hair stand on end.

On the other hand, very low voltage at high current can kill you instantly.

It's a documented fact that the same lenses with heavier AF elements move noticeably more slowly on cameras with lower current available than on cameras with higher current available. It's also a documented fact that as the battery in the same camera, such as a 1D X is depleted, the AF speed slows down.

The key factor is power, not current or voltage. Constant current with higher voltage means more power. Thus the increased AF motor drive speed with the 1-series. Regardless, your statement about capacity was manifestly incorrect. Capacity includes a time factor (the h in mAh), and is irrelevant in terms of lens focus speed.

 

[neuroanatomist]

One can just as easily say that Canon has seen declining sales during this period and be just as factually correct.

So Canon’s slow sensor readout is responsible for the decline of the ILC market? LOL.

 

[Graphic.Artifacts]

RIP Chuck. He was a great guy on so many different levels.

I never met him personally but he was generally well regarded and always seemed a decent sort. I forgot that he has passed. I seem to do that alot these days.

 

[neuroanatomist]

I believe Canon has described the 7D mark II as being capable of delivering the higher voltage as well when attached to a telephoto prime. It may have to ramp up the voltage internally. My 7D2 seemed to focus my 600 faster than a 5D but probably not quite as fast as a 1 series.

edit: according to posters claiming to be quoting Chuck Westfall it's a firmware feature of the 1Dx's and 7D2 but not included in 5D's. Supposedly those bodies provide a 1 sec busrt of addition power to the AF motors to overcome the inertia of the large glass elements in the big whites. After the lenses/AF motors are moving the power drops back to normal. Maintaining the higher power might make focusing unstable.

It's Canon so I doubt we'll ever know for sure.

Interesting, thanks. I doubt it’s a firmware feature, firmware can’t store power. There would have to be a capacitor in bodies with that feature, which is possible.