Canon EOS R Mark II in testing [CR2]

scyrene

EOS 5D MK IV
Dec 4, 2013
2,640
599
UK
www.flickr.com
Circle the fanboy wagons!

One persons experience in one part of the world can’t possibly reflect the experience of others, nor be an indicator of broader trends.

I’m curious what your explanations are for Sony to surpass marketshare of Canon and Nikon in the full frame market in less than 6 years.

Sure Canon will probably take it back in 2020, but come on....for “inferior cameras” that’s a remarkable accomplishment.
Okay, no need for the f-word, it's really unhelpful and needlessly antagonistic. I don't think anyone here would disagree that Sony have made great strides. But the discussion seems to be coloured by an old narrative - than Canon (and maybe Nikon) are dinosaurs who don't listen and don't innovate, whilst Sony are nimble and responsive, which is partial to say the least.

On a broader note, I question the implication of some people's comments here that Canon's historic success is somehow accidental - that they didn't listen to customer feedback. I don't see how that can possibly be the case given their market dominance, even if you're just looking at the professional segment. The 1-series bodies weren't just conjured up out of nowhere, they were surely developed through close communication with users.

One last point, for all the talk of 'competition is good', a lot of people seem to think what Canon should do is simply copy Sony (whether in approach or specs). Multiple brands offering the same thing is a funny kind of competition, and I don't see how it benefits consumers, all of whom have different priorities.
 

VICYASA

EOS M50
Dec 15, 2019
29
12
There’s been a lot of posts about this speculation. The R right now is $1499 with adapter and extras from Adorama. It was released at like $2,299 just 18 months ago?

Best time to buy the R if that’s what your goal is and you’ll get your money back out of it when you decide to upgrade to the next version.

I would say the Mark II, based on rumors, would be released in the $2700-$3300 range depending on IBIS, new sensor tech, new processor, dual slots, etc. if it’s truly a 5D equivalent of 2020 I don’t see why it wouldn’t be in that range.

Essentially a lot of people think the R was a stop gap until they could come out with a better camera and the Mark II probably won’t resemble its classic version much.

I don’t think even the Sony boys can say this camera isn’t a great deal at $1499. It’s a very capable camera at that price point and the Mark II probably won’t ship until summer.
Thank you for your reply.
 

Foxeslink

EOS M50
Aug 2, 2018
32
50
I would be dreaming or I can expect 120FPS FullHD and 4k60p no crop ?

I really need a still/video camera. If canon cannot come up with this in the new camera, I woud have to buy a sony just for video.
 

dwarven

EOS T7i
Dec 12, 2019
76
107
In my short time with the R, I've found it's phenomenal. Build quality is excellent, viewfinder is sharp and clear, menu system is great, eye AF is nearly as accurate as the a7iii, and most importantly the image quality far exceeds the camera I was upgrading from (D7500). At $1500 I think it would be silly not to get it, especially if you have adaptable EF glass.
 

geffy

EOS M50
Jun 24, 2019
43
25
Okay, no need for the f-word, it's really unhelpful and needlessly antagonistic. I don't think anyone here would disagree that Sony have made great strides. But the discussion seems to be coloured by an old narrative - than Canon (and maybe Nikon) are dinosaurs who don't listen and don't innovate, whilst Sony are nimble and responsive, which is partial to say the least.

On a broader note, I question the implication of some people's comments here that Canon's historic success is somehow accidental - that they didn't listen to customer feedback. I don't see how that can possibly be the case given their market dominance, even if you're just looking at the professional segment. The 1-series bodies weren't just conjured up out of nowhere, they were surely developed through close communication with users.

One last point, for all the talk of 'competition is good', a lot of people seem to think what Canon should do is simply copy Sony (whether in approach or specs). Multiple brands offering the same thing is a funny kind of competition, and I don't see how it benefits consumers, all of whom have different priorities.
Always amazes me that sony is so lauded, yes it has really good specs and image quality but actually getting that image is a pain, the canons have their limitations but it is a better experience and what it lacks in pixels or dynamic range is compensated by handling and colour quality and where did all that dust come from, influencers and reviewers love sony but nikon and canon get used for a reason.
 

Cryhavoc

Eos R, EM1 MkII, Lumix G9, Lumix S1R
Jan 17, 2019
76
116
Seattle
Wireless transfer is slow and kills your battery fast. How long does it take to transfer 2000 RAW shots for you? 2000 shots could be taken over 2-3 hours time period is an unfortunate reality for event shooters. With Average file size 35Mb each that’s 70Gb + to transfer over wifi... good luck doing that in 2-3 hours period while you keep taking shots and your Camera battery would have to support all that.
I actually tether when shooting. I bought a long usb to usb-c cable, one end plugs into the camera, the other into the surface pro tablet which is carried in a backpack. Immediate backups of all the shots I take when I use the tethered method. If I am casually shooting, I have the shots go to my phone or tablet wirelessly.

The tethering while on the go works quite well.
 

SecureGSM

2 x 5D IV
Feb 26, 2017
1,745
671
I actually tether when shooting. I bought a long usb to usb-c cable, one end plugs into the camera, the other into the surface pro tablet which is carried in a backpack. Immediate backups of all the shots I take when I use the tethered method. If I am casually shooting, I have the shots go to my phone or tablet wirelessly.

The tethering while on the go works quite well.
Ok. Gotcha. This Solution may not work for events though.
 

ritholtz

EOS 7D MK II
Mar 25, 2014
584
12
I actually tether when shooting. I bought a long usb to usb-c cable, one end plugs into the camera, the other into the surface pro tablet which is carried in a backpack. Immediate backups of all the shots I take when I use the tethered method. If I am casually shooting, I have the shots go to my phone or tablet wirelessly.

The tethering while on the go works quite well.
While connected to laptop, does it charge Camera? Or do we need some special cables or ports to charge the battery with camera.
 

Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
8,262
1,918
Canada
Ok. Gotcha. This Solution may not work for events though.
I look on it as an additional tool in the box. For a lot of the time i am shooting, it is usually a short burst of shots, and lots of time in between. This would work quite well for that. If I were shooting action at “the big game”, it would have a hard time keeping up...... but then again, this is not the camera I would have brought to cover action.
 

telemaque

Before Sunset
Nov 30, 2019
68
30
At this point, I really don't think I can submit much more that actually would be constructive to this discussion.
So I wish all of You the very best!
I am a commercial director in green chemistry in real life, when not travelling for my pleasure with cameras in order to take pictures and videos.
I have found the comments from Sportskutaren quite interesting and furthermore illustrated by beautiful pictures, showing his real capacity in using a camera.

Since these comments, I have read many answers that I find are showing a certain level of bad faith. I did not expect this here on this forum.
Obviously, the comments from Sportskutaren were constructive and written for the good of Canon reputation and business.

In my business world, dispute on words are not key, what are important are the sales figures.
If you think you are right but your sales are falling apart, the reality of business imposes to you the fact that you are wrong.

I love Canon, but Canon needs to change if they want to improve or keep their sales.
From my little perspective in video, Canon's strategy on DSLR for video has not worked and Lumix took their marketshare.

The same is happening with Sony in Japan in 2019 with Full Frame cameras.

It is time to open your eyes and stop to deny the reality of Canon loosing marketshare and its leadership position in Japan (in FF).

I would be shocked to learn that Canon is loosing their leadership position because they are a perfect company, producing perfect products and those products are perfectly answering the needs of their customers. I would rather think they have missed or ignored some customer needs and those needs were better managed by other brands.

A consequence of this mismanagement from Canon is their marketshare going down and their loss of their leadership position.

If I remember well my Geography, Sweden is quite far from Japan, so clearly the loss of marketshare in Japan is not due to the local situation of some Swedish bad new sales persons not properly listening to an experienced bird photographer or a professional sport photographer.

So maybe this problem of Canon is global?!
And if you visit internet you'll find many comments going in that direction.

In Japan, in Full Frame, Sony won 6.4% marketshare and is now the leader with 38% marketshare.
When Canon lost 1.8% marketshare and now second with 36% marketshare.

What is interesting is not the small loss of Canon but the very serious increase of Sony.


DETAILS OF THE SALES ARTICLE:

While the western world was tying itself in knots buying all the Black Friday bargains, something very important happened in Japan: it was revealed that Sony sold more full-frame cameras than anyone else in 2019, overtaking Canon for market share.

In short, this means that Sony has won the full-frame mirrorless race in 2019; despite their best efforts, the Canon EOS R and Nikon Z7 simply couldn't keep paces with the awesome sales of Sony's Alpha cameras.

The news comes courtesy of BCN+R, the Japanese retail analysis service that monitors point of sale data in the nation. In its report, BCN+R announced that Sony now holds dominant market share of 38% in the full-frame arena, followed by Canon at 36% and Nikon at 24%.

This is in stark contrast to 2018, which saw Canon hold a 37.8% share, Sony 31.6% and Nikon 29.1%.
 
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telemaque

Before Sunset
Nov 30, 2019
68
30
From the same reports, further information on TOTAL, APS and FF sales changes year over year :

Overall Sales

Sony 19.4% increase in sales units 2019 vs 2018
Sony 31.2% increase in sales revenues 2019 vs 2018

Canon 12.8% DECREASE in sales units 2019 vs 2018
Canon 15.8% DECREASE in sales revenues 2019 vs 2018

If you are an investor and you get such figures, what would you think of Canon's performance?
What would you think of Sony's future in this business?


1576716646892.png
 
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unfocused

EOS 1D MK II
Jul 20, 2010
5,362
2,099
66
Springfield, IL
www.mgordoncommunications.com
From the same reports, further information on TOTAL, APS and FF sales changes year over year :

Overall Sales

Sony 19.4% increase in sales units 2019 vs 2018
Sony 31.2% increase in sales revenues 2019 vs 2018

Canon 12.8% DECREASE in sales units 2019 vs 2018
Canon 15.8% DECREASE in sales revenues 2019 vs 2018

If you are an investor and you get such figures, what would you think of Canon's performance?
What would you think of Sony's future in this business?
Interesting numbers. But, things get more complicated as you dig in. I found this in the article you referenced: "What is interesting, however, is that between the 'big three', full-frame cameras are an incredibly small part of the puzzle (albeit the most profitable). According to BCN+R, full-frame only accounts for 10.4% of sales (6.4% of that being mirrorless, 4% DSLR); APS-C cameras account for 89.6% (55.7% mirrorless, 33.9% DSLR)."

Also, it's very hard to draw conclusions from a single year, as camera manufacturers follow different release schedules. Depending on what a company has or has not released in any given year can greatly impact sales for that year -- Probably more so with DSLRs than mirrorless, but I expect that since Canon did not have any major full frame DSLR releases in the past year, that could skew the sales figures.

This all causes me to default to a position I've long held -- I'm glad to see Canon's competitors doing well as that certainly puts pressure on Canon to do better. With Nikon and Canon both having about a century's worth of experience, I don't really worry about either one abandoning the market or going out of business. They have weathered changes before and I expect their management is far ahead of us in anticipating and adapting to changing conditions.
 

Michael Clark

Now we see through a glass, darkly...
Apr 5, 2016
1,907
1,040
I am a commercial director in green chemistry in real life, when not travelling for my pleasure with cameras in order to take pictures and videos.
I have found the comments from Sportskutaren quite interesting and furthermore illustrated by beautiful pictures, showing his real capacity in using a camera.

Since these comments, I have read many answers that I find are showing a certain level of bad faith. I did not expect this here on this forum.
Obviously, the comments from Sportskutaren were constructive and written for the good of Canon reputation and business.

In my business world, dispute on words are not key, what are important are the sales figures.
If you think you are right but your sales are falling apart, the reality of business imposes to you the fact that you are wrong.

I love Canon, but Canon needs to change if they want to improve or keep their sales.
From my little perspective in video, Canon's strategy on DSLR for video has not worked and Lumix took their marketshare.

The same is happening with Sony in Japan in 2019 with Full Frame cameras.

It is time to open your eyes and stop to deny the reality of Canon loosing marketshare and its leadership position in Japan (in FF).

I would be shocked to learn that Canon is loosing their leadership position because they are a perfect company, producing perfect products and those products are perfectly answering the needs of their customers. I would rather think they have missed or ignored some customer needs and those needs were better managed by other brands.

A consequence of this mismanagement from Canon is their marketshare going down and their loss of their leadership position.

If I remember well my Geography, Sweden is quite far from Japan, so clearly the loss of marketshare in Japan is not due to the local situation of some Swedish bad new sales persons not properly listening to an experienced bird photographer or a professional sport photographer.

So maybe this problem of Canon is global?!
And if you visit internet you'll find many comments going in that direction.

In Japan, in Full Frame, Sony won 6.4% marketshare and is now the leader with 38% marketshare.
When Canon lost 1.8% marketshare and now second with 36% marketshare.

What is interesting is not the small loss of Canon but the very serious increase of Sony.


DETAILS OF THE SALES ARTICLE:

While the western world was tying itself in knots buying all the Black Friday bargains, something very important happened in Japan: it was revealed that Sony sold more full-frame cameras than anyone else in 2019, overtaking Canon for market share.

In short, this means that Sony has won the full-frame mirrorless race in 2019; despite their best efforts, the Canon EOS R and Nikon Z7 simply couldn't keep paces with the awesome sales of Sony's Alpha cameras.

The news comes courtesy of BCN+R, the Japanese retail analysis service that monitors point of sale data in the nation. In its report, BCN+R announced that Sony now holds dominant market share of 38% in the full-frame arena, followed by Canon at 36% and Nikon at 24%.

This is in stark contrast to 2018, which saw Canon hold a 37.8% share, Sony 31.6% and Nikon 29.1%.

Serious question. When did fiscal 2019 end and fiscal 2020 begin in Japan?
 

Joules

EOS 7D MK II
Jul 16, 2017
619
576
Hamburg, Germany
If you are an investor and you get such figures, what would you think of Canon's performance?
What would you think of Sony's future in this business?
Canon only released one FF body in the year, and that was the RP. If you look at the graphics, you'll see Canon's FF unit sales are actually up, and value is down, indicating they sold a ton of RPs, even though the more expensive DSLR bodies probably weren't in high demand. Which is to be expected, as they are near their end of life, with the 1DX III and likely even the 5D V coming next year.

If I were an investor, I'd look at these figures a lot more, before concluding much. In any case, I find it misleading to say that Canon is suffering so much here, as clearly Nikon is in a lot more trouble.

Here's a better coverage of the report and the original btw:



Serious question. When did fiscal 2019 end and fiscal 2020 begin in Japan?
As indicated by the graphics, the numbers from the report cover the year from November 2018 to October 2019.
 

Travel_Photographer

Travel, Landscape, Architecture
Aug 30, 2019
94
126
Since these comments, I have read many answers that I find are showing a certain level of bad faith. I did not expect this here on this forum.

In my business world, dispute on words are not key, what are important are the sales figures.

It is time to open your eyes and stop to deny the reality of Canon loosing marketshare and its leadership position in Japan (in FF).
The title of the article is "Canon EOS R Mark II in Testing"

If you're at a holiday party this season and people are discussing the upcoming Ford F-150 pickup truck and whether you feel 450 lb/ft torque is enough to tow your camper, or wondering if they're going to keep the V8 in the lineup, or add a diesel engine, and someone comes up to your group and starts talking about some random marketing company who says Chevrolet just passed Ford in sales in Germany, then (1) How relevant would you find that to the conversation and (2) How long do you think it would take people to walk away from that guy?

The responses you see here should come as no surprise.
 

Mikehit

EOS 5D MK IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,308
498
I am a commercial director in green chemistry in real life, when not travelling for my pleasure with cameras in order to take pictures and videos.
I have found the comments from Sportskutaren quite interesting and furthermore illustrated by beautiful pictures, showing his real capacity in using a camera.

Since these comments, I have read many answers that I find are showing a certain level of bad faith. I did not expect this here on this forum.
Obviously, the comments from Sportskutaren were constructive and written for the good of Canon reputation and business.

In my business world, dispute on words are not key, what are important are the sales figures.
If you think you are right but your sales are falling apart, the reality of business imposes to you the fact that you are wrong.

I love Canon, but Canon needs to change if they want to improve or keep their sales.
From my little perspective in video, Canon's strategy on DSLR for video has not worked and Lumix took their marketshare.

The same is happening with Sony in Japan in 2019 with Full Frame cameras.

It is time to open your eyes and stop to deny the reality of Canon loosing marketshare and its leadership position in Japan (in FF).

I would be shocked to learn that Canon is loosing their leadership position because they are a perfect company, producing perfect products and those products are perfectly answering the needs of their customers. I would rather think they have missed or ignored some customer needs and those needs were better managed by other brands.

A consequence of this mismanagement from Canon is their marketshare going down and their loss of their leadership position.

If I remember well my Geography, Sweden is quite far from Japan, so clearly the loss of marketshare in Japan is not due to the local situation of some Swedish bad new sales persons not properly listening to an experienced bird photographer or a professional sport photographer.

So maybe this problem of Canon is global?!
And if you visit internet you'll find many comments going in that direction.

In Japan, in Full Frame, Sony won 6.4% marketshare and is now the leader with 38% marketshare.
When Canon lost 1.8% marketshare and now second with 36% marketshare.

What is interesting is not the small loss of Canon but the very serious increase of Sony.


DETAILS OF THE SALES ARTICLE:

While the western world was tying itself in knots buying all the Black Friday bargains, something very important happened in Japan: it was revealed that Sony sold more full-frame cameras than anyone else in 2019, overtaking Canon for market share.

In short, this means that Sony has won the full-frame mirrorless race in 2019; despite their best efforts, the Canon EOS R and Nikon Z7 simply couldn't keep paces with the awesome sales of Sony's Alpha cameras.

The news comes courtesy of BCN+R, the Japanese retail analysis service that monitors point of sale data in the nation. In its report, BCN+R announced that Sony now holds dominant market share of 38% in the full-frame arena, followed by Canon at 36% and Nikon at 24%.

This is in stark contrast to 2018, which saw Canon hold a 37.8% share, Sony 31.6% and Nikon 29.1%.
I accept everything you say. However, there are two reasons a company falls behind like Canon have done:
(a) They have the technology and do not listen to what customers want, only releasing what they think they should release
(b) they do not have the technology and do as well as they can.

They key to mirrorless is the sensor because it is the speed at which the sensor can process and pass data to other components. And Canon have admitted they have have fallen behind on sensor technology. So as I see it, they want to match Sony but can't, despite what people want them to do.
As for listening, as has been said above, a lot depends on exactly who you talk to. If you happen to talk to someone with influence on the design team you will get positive feedback from your comments. If you are talking to a run-of-the-mill CPS person or sales person then you will likely get a defence of the products on sale. Or a defensive position where they don't want to publicly admit they do not have the technology.

So yes, Canon has lost market share but there are myriad reasons and given their past performance, I see 'Canon not listening' as the least likely. And the 'Sony responded my suggestions ' often (as has been said above) Canon has been doing it for years and if Sony did not already have them on the drawing board they would deserve to be harangued as incompetent.
Two recent examples; when people criticised Sony's continued production of small bodies, they responded saying that 'that is not what our customers want'(denial), then lo and behold the A7R4 and A9II have got bigger bodies. And a current one is Sony's inability (refusal?) to put in a half-decent touch screen, especially given their history with mobile phones.
and I have lost count of the number of Sony users (including their sponsored photographers) who complained that Sony did not seem to be interested in their comments. That seems to be changing, thankfully.

I don't think people are being uncharitable to Sportskutaren, but pointing out that the 'Canon don't listen but Sony do' is rather too simplistic.
 

Joules

EOS 7D MK II
Jul 16, 2017
619
576
Hamburg, Germany
Canon have admitted they have have fallen behind on sensor technology. So as I see it, they want to match Sony but can't, despite what people want them to do.
I think those times are over. The sensor in the M6 II and 90D shows that Canon has diminished noise issues boosting shadows further and in the case of the M6 II we see that throughput is much less of an issue, as it has basically the same amount of throughput as the Sony a9 for example.

And assuming Canon didn't go all out with their new technology on the first mid tear mirrorless they released with it, we could expect to see some great specs on the upcoming high res R and R II cameras.
 
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Dec 20, 2019
1
0
Salt Lake
I have a 5D4 and an A7III but as a portraitist find myself reaching for the Sony for its Eye AF and smaller, lighter feel most of the time. I don't let the 5D4 go because it's still a superb camera and performs well with the many L primes and zooms I have while they don't work as snappily as native glass on the Sony using the Sigma MC-11 adapter. The decent performance of the R as it is with the new firmware and the terrific Christmas/New-Version-Coming-Fairly-Soon prices for body and adapter mean I will probably get the R now for its mirrorless advantages and then take a good look at the R2 when it comes out to see if the new version is worth it by summer 2020 as seems likely for its availability.

I thought I'd hate the OVF but I don't mind it a bit in the Sony. Matter of taste, I guess. The A7R4 is a nice tool but I don't need the extra file size and would rather be able to get good service out of my superb Canon lenses for some years with the R and adapter for classic Canon glass, which I hear works well. The Sony lenses are also good but I could spend $10,000 in a hurry getting everything I'd like replacing my Canon lenses with Sony, Zeiss, etc., E-mount.
 

telemaque

Before Sunset
Nov 30, 2019
68
30
Interesting numbers. But, things get more complicated as you dig in. I found this in the article you referenced: "What is interesting, however, is that between the 'big three', full-frame cameras are an incredibly small part of the puzzle (albeit the most profitable). According to BCN+R, full-frame only accounts for 10.4% of sales (6.4% of that being mirrorless, 4% DSLR); APS-C cameras account for 89.6% (55.7% mirrorless, 33.9% DSLR)."

Also, it's very hard to draw conclusions from a single year, as camera manufacturers follow different release schedules. Depending on what a company has or has not released in any given year can greatly impact sales for that year -- Probably more so with DSLRs than mirrorless, but I expect that since Canon did not have any major full frame DSLR releases in the past year, that could skew the sales figures.

This all causes me to default to a position I've long held -- I'm glad to see Canon's competitors doing well as that certainly puts pressure on Canon to do better. With Nikon and Canon both having about a century's worth of experience, I don't really worry about either one abandoning the market or going out of business. They have weathered changes before and I expect their management is far ahead of us in anticipating and adapting to changing conditions.
I agree on your comments on the FF business.
As you have seen, I have posted another set of figures showing the whole business sales in Japan.
Figures are even worth for Canon (percentage of change).

Again, I want Canon to remain a great company. I am not happy to see these figures.
But, I don't want Canon to become arrogant and ignore key demands from customers.
My comments are just written with this in mind.

As you see in my signature I have roughly spent 10,000 Euros in Canon products, so there is a good reason why I did so :)
 
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