Canon Announces the EOS M50 Mirrorless Camera

Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
8,265
1,946
Canada
scyrene said:
neuroanatomist said:
As expected. The 'Canon must offer 4K' (or they're *******) mantra has become 'Canon must offer high IQ 4K' (or they're *******).

Complainers gonna complain.

I must be the only person in the world who *likes* the idea of a crop - as I'd use 4K for wildlife work with longer lenses. For those needing wide, the 11-22 EF-M lens is cheap. For people doing ultrawide 4K work, this is clearly not for them (but surely they are a minority too?).

~~~

My overall reaction to this camera was, it's really well priced, even here in the UK! As for its limitations, some people had assumed from leaked specs it would be above the M5, but now we know the compromises - I still think it sounds a lot of camera for the money.

+1

If they want ultra wide video, why are they messing around with a crop camera???
 

Etienne

EOS R
Sep 19, 2010
1,479
287
Ottawa Ontario
I have too many of these sluggish, half-hearted cameras to give another one a try.
Look at this: the M6 (and M5) are almost new, and the M50 comes out with 4K, CR3, and other goodies, but the usability is crippled with barely any control dials or buttons.
Canon just refuses to go all in on any of these mirrorless cams
 

scyrene

EOS R6
Dec 4, 2013
2,898
1,046
UK
www.flickr.com
Don Haines said:
scyrene said:
neuroanatomist said:
As expected. The 'Canon must offer 4K' (or they're *******) mantra has become 'Canon must offer high IQ 4K' (or they're *******).

Complainers gonna complain.

I must be the only person in the world who *likes* the idea of a crop - as I'd use 4K for wildlife work with longer lenses. For those needing wide, the 11-22 EF-M lens is cheap. For people doing ultrawide 4K work, this is clearly not for them (but surely they are a minority too?).

~~~

My overall reaction to this camera was, it's really well priced, even here in the UK! As for its limitations, some people had assumed from leaked specs it would be above the M5, but now we know the compromises - I still think it sounds a lot of camera for the money.

+1

If they want ultra wide video, why are they messing around with a crop camera???

Ha, good point! Although even then, for under £1000, you can get a 4K equivalent FOV of ~28mm, which is a lot cheaper than any FF (Canon - maybe others, I'm no expert on this) options. I think Neuro says, the chief advantage of APS-C is price, and that seems still to be the case.
 

ritholtz

EOS RP
Mar 25, 2014
588
14
Sharlin said:
ritholtz said:
Can some one explain expected behavior with respect to AF Operations vs AF mode

  • Single: You pick an AF rectangle somewhere on the screen, like you would with a phone. The camera won't move the point automatically. Just like with OVF AF but you can pick exactly where to focus, not just select from a grid of AF points.
    • One Shot: When you start AF (BBF/shutter half-press/touch focus if enabled) the camera focuses once and then disengages AF.
    • Servo AF: The camera keeps focusing on whatever's within the selected AF rectangle.

  • Multi: You pick one of the predefined large AF zones, each containing a 3x3 grid of smaller AF rectangles, or the whole AF area. The camera decides which AF rectangles to use to focus within the selected zone. This is basically exactly how OVF AF zones work in a DSLR.
    • One Shot: The camera selects where to focus within the selected zone, focuses, then disengages.
    • Servo AF: The camera keeps focusing on whatever's within the selected zone, automatically switching between AF rectangles based on some logic.

  • Face+Tracking: You pick an object or feature and the camera starts tracking it even when it's not actively focusing. If there are faces in the scene and you haven't picked anything else, it tracks them. If the camera loses what it's tracking and doesn't find anything else, it falls back to Multi.
    • One Shot: The camera stops tracking, focuses once on whatever's currently within the tracking rectangle, then disengages.
    • Servo AF: The camera keeps tracking and focusing at the same time.
Thanks for the explanation. I am going to read it for few times and play it with my camera. I have SL2. But it has same settings with live view. While shooting video, AF operations doesn't mean anything right (One shot or Sever). I am assuming AF mode setting (Single, Multi, tracking) is the one we have to worry. Anyway, I always use face tracking + live view setting.

Thanks
 

stevelee

FT-QL
CR Pro
Jul 6, 2017
2,181
887
Davidson, NC
I'm not in the market for either of these cameras, or really any other kind of body right now, so I've not fantasied over the rumors or spent much time contemplating the specs. But one feature did jump out at me:

Built-in OLED Electronic Viewfinder with Touch and Drag Autofocus

I've not used any EVF cameras, so I don't understand how you can touch, much less drag, anything in one.

I'm also fuzzy about picking focus points with your eyes. If your pupils are dilated, will that affect the choice?

I still haven't seen any math to convince me that cropped 4K using pixels directly is going to be that much inferior to interpolations from a larger number of pixels. I don't need full geometry proofs or even DSP theory, but if you can point me to a page or video that demonstrates it, I'd appreciate that.

As always, I'm skeptical of the real-world quality difference between low-end 4K and less compressed 1080p, but that's probably not something you can do much to allay, short of tests that are probably more trouble than they are worth.
 

Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
8,265
1,946
Canada
stevelee said:
I'm not in the market for either of these cameras, or really any other kind of body right now, so I've not fantasied over the rumors or spent much time contemplating the specs. But one feature did jump out at me:

Built-in OLED Electronic Viewfinder with Touch and Drag Autofocus

I've not used any EVF cameras, so I don't understand how you can touch, much less drag, anything in one.

I'm also fuzzy about picking focus points with your eyes. If your pupils are dilated, will that affect the choice?

I still haven't seen any math to convince me that cropped 4K using pixels directly is going to be that much inferior to interpolations from a larger number of pixels. I don't need full geometry proofs or even DSP theory, but if you can point me to a page or video that demonstrates it, I'd appreciate that.

As always, I'm skeptical of the real-world quality difference between low-end 4K and less compressed 1080p, but that's probably not something you can do much to allay, short of tests that are probably more trouble than they are worth.

I think that the touch and drag autofocus is with the rear touchscreen.....

And with video, I think that it is the bitrate that truly measures the quality.....
 

IglooEater

EOS R
Nov 15, 2014
904
0
rrcphoto said:
crazyrunner33 said:
The technology for 4K and DPAF technology is not available at an affordable price point? Cell phones have had it for around a year now.

I've yet to see a 24MP APS-C camera in a smartphone either.

Or one with DPAF. Yes some of them have phase detection, but to my knowledge they’re all Hybrid systems not DPAF.
 

alienman

I'm New Here
Feb 13, 2018
16
0
I wouldn't say the m50 is a huge disappointment, it just doesn't strike my interest for video or photo. No dual pixel autofocus in 4k was the deal breaker for me, thats what makes canon special in my opinion. I don't see canon making a cable mirrorless camera anytime soon. The competition is much too far ahead (Sony, Panasonic, Fuji) but they can make a comeback with a new version of the m5. I also do not see a mirrorless full frame from canon being possible anytime in the future either.
 

rrcphoto

EOS R6
Jun 20, 2013
2,505
147
Etienne said:
I have too many of these sluggish, half-hearted cameras to give another one a try.
Look at this: the M6 (and M5) are almost new, and the M50 comes out with 4K, CR3, and other goodies, but the usability is crippled with barely any control dials or buttons.
Canon just refuses to go all in on any of these mirrorless cams

the M50 is entry level.

The M6 was a $800 camera, even the M5 was a $1000 camera. you expect canon to go all in at those price points?

the M5 is highly competent. I wouldn't call it sluggish either.

it's also over 1.5 years old and due for a replacement.

M6 is a year old and also as well, due for a replacement.
 

Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
8,265
1,946
Canada
scyrene said:
Don Haines said:
scyrene said:
neuroanatomist said:
As expected. The 'Canon must offer 4K' (or they're *******) mantra has become 'Canon must offer high IQ 4K' (or they're *******).

Complainers gonna complain.

I must be the only person in the world who *likes* the idea of a crop - as I'd use 4K for wildlife work with longer lenses. For those needing wide, the 11-22 EF-M lens is cheap. For people doing ultrawide 4K work, this is clearly not for them (but surely they are a minority too?).

~~~

My overall reaction to this camera was, it's really well priced, even here in the UK! As for its limitations, some people had assumed from leaked specs it would be above the M5, but now we know the compromises - I still think it sounds a lot of camera for the money.

+1

If they want ultra wide video, why are they messing around with a crop camera???

Ha, good point! Although even then, for under £1000, you can get a 4K equivalent FOV of ~28mm, which is a lot cheaper than any FF (Canon - maybe others, I'm no expert on this) options. I think Neuro says, the chief advantage of APS-C is price, and that seems still to be the case.

Yes, and the thing is an introductory level camera... an introductory camera that , for some reason, people want to outperform the 1DX2.....

It could have been better, it could have been worse, but all in all, it seems like a good deal to me.....

I eagerly await the reviews.... and BTW, the CR3 files are supposed to be a 14 bit format....
 

alienman

I'm New Here
Feb 13, 2018
16
0
Also before anyone buys the m50 for 4k vlogging make sure you watch some somple footage, the contrast detection doesn't look impressive at all.
 

Talys

Canon R5
CR Pro
Feb 16, 2017
2,109
407
Vancouver, BC
Don Haines said:
scyrene said:
Don Haines said:
scyrene said:
neuroanatomist said:
As expected. The 'Canon must offer 4K' (or they're *******) mantra has become 'Canon must offer high IQ 4K' (or they're *******).

Complainers gonna complain.

I must be the only person in the world who *likes* the idea of a crop - as I'd use 4K for wildlife work with longer lenses. For those needing wide, the 11-22 EF-M lens is cheap. For people doing ultrawide 4K work, this is clearly not for them (but surely they are a minority too?).

~~~

My overall reaction to this camera was, it's really well priced, even here in the UK! As for its limitations, some people had assumed from leaked specs it would be above the M5, but now we know the compromises - I still think it sounds a lot of camera for the money.

+1

If they want ultra wide video, why are they messing around with a crop camera???

Ha, good point! Although even then, for under £1000, you can get a 4K equivalent FOV of ~28mm, which is a lot cheaper than any FF (Canon - maybe others, I'm no expert on this) options. I think Neuro says, the chief advantage of APS-C is price, and that seems still to be the case.

Yes, and the thing is an introductory level camera... an introductory camera that , for some reason, people want to outperform the 1DX2.....

It could have been better, it could have been worse, but all in all, it seems like a good deal to me.....

I eagerly await the reviews.... and BTW, the CR3 files are supposed to be a 14 bit format....

There is another issue, too. In order to eliminate crop factor, it's necessary to scale whatever native resolution of the sensor is to 4k. I frankly do not know (or care) whether a resized 24 megapixels to 8.3 megapixels (3840 × 2160) looks better or worse than the center 8.3 megapixels of a sensor, though I suspect that on consumer grade lenses with cruddy corners, a center crop may be favorable. Perhaps Canon decided that the latter was superior output.

Also, as has already been stated by many people ~ 28mm full frame equivalent is very wide anyways; I'm not sure what the demand for wider than that on an entry level 4k camera is.
 

alienman

I'm New Here
Feb 13, 2018
16
0
+1

If they want ultra wide video, why are they messing around with a crop camera???
[/quote]

1dx and 5d4 also have 4k crop.
 

Talys

Canon R5
CR Pro
Feb 16, 2017
2,109
407
Vancouver, BC
IglooEater said:
rrcphoto said:
crazyrunner33 said:
The technology for 4K and DPAF technology is not available at an affordable price point? Cell phones have had it for around a year now.

I've yet to see a 24MP APS-C camera in a smartphone either.

Or one with DPAF. Yes some of them have phase detection, but to my knowledge they’re all Hybrid systems not DPAF.

AFAIK, I have read that Samsung S7, S8 (and I assume S9), and maybe the latest Google Pixel, are DPAF.

S7 and onwards are DEFINITELY not PDAF, because Samsung made a big deal about using dual pixel autofocus. I'm guessing they just licensed it from Canon.


But anyways, smartphones having DPAF is not nearly as big a big deal as APSC or FF. Smartphones have a huge depth of field and wide field of view due to their tiny sensors. Even at F/2.8 or 2.5 or whatever it is on an S8, the DoF is very high.
 

tmroper

EOS 90D
Sep 22, 2016
177
66
goldenhusky said:
transpo1 said:
R1-7D said:
Wow, no DPAF in 4K. Never mind, no longer interested. Maybe next time, Canon.

Wow, is this true?

In the Kai W video sample I saw on YouTube (from a Canon launch event), the AF in 4K on this thing isn't looking so good. Basically, it looks like all the other brands out there at the moment.


Yep
 

Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
8,265
1,946
Canada
Talys said:
Don Haines said:
scyrene said:
Don Haines said:
scyrene said:
neuroanatomist said:
As expected. The 'Canon must offer 4K' (or they're *******) mantra has become 'Canon must offer high IQ 4K' (or they're *******).

Complainers gonna complain.

I must be the only person in the world who *likes* the idea of a crop - as I'd use 4K for wildlife work with longer lenses. For those needing wide, the 11-22 EF-M lens is cheap. For people doing ultrawide 4K work, this is clearly not for them (but surely they are a minority too?).

~~~

My overall reaction to this camera was, it's really well priced, even here in the UK! As for its limitations, some people had assumed from leaked specs it would be above the M5, but now we know the compromises - I still think it sounds a lot of camera for the money.

+1

If they want ultra wide video, why are they messing around with a crop camera???

Ha, good point! Although even then, for under £1000, you can get a 4K equivalent FOV of ~28mm, which is a lot cheaper than any FF (Canon - maybe others, I'm no expert on this) options. I think Neuro says, the chief advantage of APS-C is price, and that seems still to be the case.

Yes, and the thing is an introductory level camera... an introductory camera that , for some reason, people want to outperform the 1DX2.....

It could have been better, it could have been worse, but all in all, it seems like a good deal to me.....

I eagerly await the reviews.... and BTW, the CR3 files are supposed to be a 14 bit format....

There is another issue, too. In order to eliminate crop factor, it's necessary to scale whatever native resolution of the sensor is to 4k. I frankly do not know (or care) whether a resized 24 megapixels to 8.3 megapixels (3840 × 2160) looks better or worse than the center 8.3 megapixels of a sensor, though I suspect that on consumer grade lenses with cruddy corners, a center crop may be favorable. Perhaps Canon decided that the latter was superior output.

Also, as has already been stated by many people ~ 28mm full frame equivalent is very wide anyways; I'm not sure what the demand for wider than that on an entry level 4k camera is.

The centre of the lens is the sweet spot, so taking the 4K crop from the middle of the sensor makes sense....

To do anything other than the crop means pixel bining.... and anything other than an integer amount requires significant processing time.... if you had a 7680 pixelwide sensor, you could do a 2X2 bin.... but you don’t have that many pixels so it is either cropped or nothing.... or wait for more computing power and hope that the camera does not overheat....

Let’s say you have a 15mm lens on your crop camera and you want to shoot the widest 4K you can.... the cropped 4K is going to make your Apparentl focal length 22.5 mm and the Apsc crop makes it 36 degrees. That’s you practical limit for the camera..... go ff and you can use a similar lens and get a 23mm equivalent....
 

bhf3737

---
CR Pro
Sep 9, 2015
674
1,572
Calgary, Canada
www.flickr.com
Talys said:
...
Also, as has already been stated by many people ~ 28mm full frame equivalent is very wide anyways; I'm not sure what the demand for wider than that on an entry level 4k camera is.
28mm FF equivalent is a very decent field of view that can be achieved by this tiny camera using 11-22mm lens.
Currently there is no fixed lens professional 4K video camera (price range 3-5K) that can shoot anything wider than 28mm. The best offering from Sony PXW-Z90V has equivalent 29mm. Only Canon XF400 reaches equivalent 25.5mm. Also 120mbps and 30min continuous recording is quite respectable for M50.
 

mistaspeedy

EOS RP
Apr 5, 2015
236
6
Taking a 1:1 crop from the middle of the lens is terrible for quality... the 'sweet spot' would need to be impossibly sweet to get total clarity.

This would mean that you need a lens that resolves all 24 megapixels perfectly when you zoom in 1:1, and then you take the middle UHD resolution and use that for video.

We get more noise and less color detail since the image needs to be debayered... and on top of it all we have an AA filter blurring things, so it can never be pixel perfect, even with a perfect lens.
The 1.6x crop on top of the APSC crop is just too much.

Just to be clear... it seems 'good enough' for this price point... but there are many things that can be improved upon in more expensive models.
 

syyeung1

EOS M50
Feb 20, 2018
26
12
Etienne said:
I have too many of these sluggish, half-hearted cameras to give another one a try.
Look at this: the M6 (and M5) are almost new, and the M50 comes out with 4K, CR3, and other goodies, but the usability is crippled with barely any control dials or buttons.
Canon just refuses to go all in on any of these mirrorless cams

This is a camera aimed at beginners. Less dials and controls may actually be better. We are in a generation where everything is operated via touchscreen, which Canon has the most logical layout of all the camera manufacturers.

The only concern that stopped me from pre-ordering the M50 is the 4K AF. I wanted to use it for my kid's school events. If this is not good enough, I will get a GX85 as a stop-gap until M5II is released (if the M5II doesn't address this, then I will probably be disappointed).
 

syyeung1

EOS M50
Feb 20, 2018
26
12
scyrene said:
neuroanatomist said:
As expected. The 'Canon must offer 4K' (or they're *******) mantra has become 'Canon must offer high IQ 4K' (or they're *******).

Complainers gonna complain.

I must be the only person in the world who *likes* the idea of a crop - as I'd use 4K for wildlife work with longer lenses. For those needing wide, the 11-22 EF-M lens is cheap. For people doing ultrawide 4K work, this is clearly not for them (but surely they are a minority too?).

~~~

My overall reaction to this camera was, it's really well priced, even here in the UK! As for its limitations, some people had assumed from leaked specs it would be above the M5, but now we know the compromises - I still think it sounds a lot of camera for the money.

I was thinking the same as well. I wanted a camera to take videos for my kid's school events. I will be able to get away with 18-150 with the crop. Just hope the AF is good enough for my use