Canon Announces the EOS M50 Mirrorless Camera

transpo1

EOS RP
Jan 12, 2011
760
104
Talys said:
fussy III said:
There have been exactly two reasons for which I would have bought this camera:
1) silent shooting for wildlife
2) Dual Pixel AF in 4K

1) If you buy a $740 camera for shooting wildlife, you're probably going to be disappointed.

2) Because there are many other $740 cameras that have DPAF and 4k, right?


From the types of questions I hear at camera shops, I think that the vast majority of people buying an entry level 4k camera are interested in three things: does it record 4k, is it easy to use, and how much does it cost?

At the entry level price point, most people are not a whole lot more sophisticated than that, and the rest of it boils down to what the salesperson makes a nice commission on and what's in stock at the store.

Within the first year, we'll probably see the camera discounted up to $100-$140 -- or bundled with extra stuff like EF adapter. I'm pretty sure that the M50 will move off the shelves pretty well.

People will buy it thinking it has 4K but will ultimately be underwhelmed with the 4K it offers. They will keep it for the stills but if 4K is what will initially sell this, Canon is setting customers up for massive disappointment.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy now- Canon fans want 4K, Canon offers 4K but incredibly hobbled, cropped 4K with no DPAF. The people who buy it, buy it for stills. Canon does market research saying how 4K did not move that many cameras. And therefore they can continue to not offer it or offer hobbled versions of it.

Hopefully, this is really the turning point for Canon and not just them trying to prove once and for all that they don't need to offer high IQ 4K in their lineup.
 

transpo1

EOS RP
Jan 12, 2011
760
104
exquisitor said:
MayaTlab said:
3dit0r said:
But it does send very mixed signals to those looking to the future of Canon's higher-end DSLR/mirrorless options; is this just 'crippling' an entry level camera to protect higher end models, or does it signify that Canon still don't recognise that the heavy 4K video crop has been very unpopular, and forgetting that, on full frame cameras at least, that they have no lenses suitable for wideangle shots on that 1.7 crop? Or does it mean that they simply don't have the sensor/processing tech yet to compete with other brands which have been perfecting this tech in full-frame or near full-readout APS-C for some time?

Regarding cropped 4K and lack of DPAF at this resolution I'm fairly certain that it isn't crippling, but rather a sensor readout speed issue. Canon engineers probably know very well how to improve that spec, but I guess that Canon is reluctant to commit to processes to make the production of such sensors a reality, at least at a given price point. The same goes for the 6DII, Canon probably can't produce x design for a sufficiently low price to make it a reality.

This is actually kind of worrying because it was all fine and dandy when Canon simply lagged behind in terms of DR, now with video and mirrorless cameras it's basic operational capabilities that are lagging behind. The Sony A9's silent shutter, for example, seems totally out of reach for Canon for a few years at least.

On a positive note we finally seem to have an efficient Digic that can do 4K in H264.

Exactly. For this reason DPAF is available at FHD and HD resolution, which still makes it very capable for video. But I think this is rather a processing problem, not a readout (sensor) problem.1DXII and 5DIV both have dual DIGIC processors and they both have DPAF at 4K. 6DII has only one DIGIC 7 and subsequently no 4K at all. Obviously DIGIC 8 now allows for 4K, but without DPAF.

Which is great news, because Canon now has no excuse not to offer no crop, DPAF 4K in every dual-processor model camera from here on out.
 

ritholtz

EOS RP
Mar 25, 2014
588
14
Any one using M5, please explain these focus points modes. What is the deal with number of focus points. I thought every fixel is going to act like a focus point. I use live view with tracking option for video shooting. Never tried with by selecting single focusing point. AF operation vs AF mode is very confusing with M series.
 

Talys

Canon R5
CR Pro
Feb 16, 2017
2,110
414
Vancouver, BC
transpo1 said:
Which is great news, because Canon now has no excuse not to offer no crop, DPAF 4K in every dual-processor model camera from here on out.

I think that it is a given that every dual processor model is going to get DPAF 4k, since the 5D4 already has this. But why would you assume that it would be no crop? I'm not really sure why this is such a big deal. How many people want to shoot video wider than wider than 16mm full frame or 11mm APSC with a 1.6 crop? That's about 24mm full frame, which is quite wide, using easily accessible glass.

The crop also gives you more pixels on the telephoto end, which is more expensive and bigger to lug around.

ritholtz said:
If some one wants to buy Canon M camera for wild life, isn't M50 better choice than M5. It has latest version of DPAF and improved focusing system. I think it can also shoot with faster FPS.

I understand why someone may want to buy a Canon M, and I understand why someone who has one would use it to photograph wildlife. But I can't imagine why someone would specifically choose a Canon M for wildlife photography.

Most obviously, all of the lenses that you'd want to use don't exist in EFM, and it's ergonomically handicapped when using telephoto lenses anyways. You can't balance one on a tripod/gimbal without a ridiculously long plate, because it will be too front-heavy, and I don't think it's controversial to say that optical viewfinders are still much more popular for wildlife photography. Not only is it easier to use, but you spend a lot of time looking down the barrel of the lens, and there are no EVFs that will run for many hours of constant use.


transpo1 said:
People will buy it thinking it has 4K but will ultimately be underwhelmed with the 4K it offers. They will keep it for the stills but if 4K is what will initially sell this, Canon is setting customers up for massive disappointment.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy now- Canon fans want 4K, Canon offers 4K but incredibly hobbled, cropped 4K with no DPAF. The people who buy it, buy it for stills. Canon does market research saying how 4K did not move that many cameras. And therefore they can continue to not offer it or offer hobbled versions of it.

Hopefully, this is really the turning point for Canon and not just them trying to prove once and for all that they don't need to offer high IQ 4K in their lineup.

There are people on the forums are looking for a silver bullet that does it all for the cheapest price possible.

But I think that the reality of it is that a lot of people actually buy entry level MILCs/DSLRs for some reasons and end up using it for others, or very little at all. Whether they have a good experience or a poor one with a camera (at the entry level end) is rarely about megapixels, dynamic range, encoding, bitrate, crop factor or any of that. It's mostly just, was it easy to use to record some video.

I think people who want the best 4k recording device possible will have to spend more money than this.

However, it's a stretch to say that 4k is "incredibly hobbled". Folks who are really into videography always say to use manual focus anyways. But personally, I am a Canon fan, and I could care less about 4k. I would much rather have that video record button reprogrammable to something else that has nothing to do with video :)
 

Sharlin

EOS R
CR Pro
Dec 26, 2015
1,375
1,315
Turku, Finland
ritholtz said:
Any one using M5, please explain these focus points modes. What is the deal with number of focus points. I thought every fixel is going to act like a focus point. I use live view with tracking option for video shooting. Never tried with by selecting single focusing point. AF operation vs AF mode is very confusing with M series.

You cannot select individual DPAF pixels, of course. The sensor area is divided into selectable zones. The M5 has 49. The DSLRs have some similar number. Now, the M50 has a finer division of the zones, allowing you to pinpoint focus more precisely (the camera will focus somewhere within the selected zone, most likely the closest feature, so smaller zone==more precise focusing). The Face+Tracking mode is not bound to these zones but picks its own zone that moved around the sensor as it tracks. And now the M50 can also focus specifically on the eye of a face it’s tracking, so the more precise focusing capability manifests there as well.
 

bhf3737

---
CR Pro
Sep 9, 2015
678
1,598
Calgary, Canada
www.flickr.com
fussy III said:
Canon Rumors said:
The new silent mode can shoot without any shutter sound

There have been exactly two reasons for which I would have bought this camera:
1) silent shooting for wildlife
2) Dual Pixel AF in 4K

...

Despite the Dual-4K-crippling, the lower price of the EOS M50 as compared to the a6500 and a possibly better continous photo-AF in combination with EF-lenses would still have made the M50 a camera to consider for my main purpose which is shooting absolutely silently with my existing EF-lenses. But under no circumstances will I start operating my camera in fully automatic exposure mode. So I guess I will have yet another Sony in my bag (besides the A7s) soon.
...

The two reasons you mentioned, it is not clear whether they are your current job/hobby strict requirements or
some nice-to-have use-cases you wished to fulfill using M50.

Could you please tell me how you currently achieve this shooting absolutely silently with existing EF-lenses?
And what is the problem with your current setting that you wanted it to be replaced with the M50?

If you wished for some nice-to-have scenarios that you think they are not addressed by the M50, well we all get disappointed every now and then and we move on.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jul 21, 2010
26,390
5,130
As expected. The 'Canon must offer 4K' (or they're *******) mantra has become 'Canon must offer high IQ 4K' (or they're *******).

Complainers gonna complain.
 

Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
8,265
1,946
Canada
neuroanatomist said:
As expected. The 'Canon must offer 4K' (or they're *******) mantra has become 'Canon must offer high IQ 4K' (or they're *******).

Complainers gonna complain.

I feel sorry for all those people who do not read CR.... They will not know about all the limitations of this camera, buy one, and have to suffer through years of taking great pictures.... OH THE HUMANITY!!!!!!!
 

jayphotoworks

EOS RP
Aug 11, 2016
268
112
Talys said:
transpo1 said:
Which is great news, because Canon now has no excuse not to offer no crop, DPAF 4K in every dual-processor model camera from here on out.

I think that it is a given that every dual processor model is going to get DPAF 4k, since the 5D4 already has this. But why would you assume that it would be no crop? I'm not really sure why this is such a big deal. How many people want to shoot video wider than wider than 16mm full frame or 11mm APSC with a 1.6 crop? That's about 24mm full frame, which is quite wide, using easily accessible glass.

The crop also gives you more pixels on the telephoto end, which is more expensive and bigger to lug around.

ritholtz said:
If some one wants to buy Canon M camera for wild life, isn't M50 better choice than M5. It has latest version of DPAF and improved focusing system. I think it can also shoot with faster FPS.

I understand why someone may want to buy a Canon M, and I understand why someone who has one would use it to photograph wildlife. But I can't imagine why someone would specifically choose a Canon M for wildlife photography.

Most obviously, all of the lenses that you'd want to use don't exist in EFM, and it's ergonomically handicapped when using telephoto lenses anyways. You can't balance one on a tripod/gimbal without a ridiculously long plate, because it will be too front-heavy, and I don't think it's controversial to say that optical viewfinders are still much more popular for wildlife photography. Not only is it easier to use, but you spend a lot of time looking down the barrel of the lens, and there are no EVFs that will run for many hours of constant use.


transpo1 said:
People will buy it thinking it has 4K but will ultimately be underwhelmed with the 4K it offers. They will keep it for the stills but if 4K is what will initially sell this, Canon is setting customers up for massive disappointment.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy now- Canon fans want 4K, Canon offers 4K but incredibly hobbled, cropped 4K with no DPAF. The people who buy it, buy it for stills. Canon does market research saying how 4K did not move that many cameras. And therefore they can continue to not offer it or offer hobbled versions of it.

Hopefully, this is really the turning point for Canon and not just them trying to prove once and for all that they don't need to offer high IQ 4K in their lineup.

There are people on the forums are looking for a silver bullet that does it all for the cheapest price possible.

But I think that the reality of it is that a lot of people actually buy entry level MILCs/DSLRs for some reasons and end up using it for others, or very little at all. Whether they have a good experience or a poor one with a camera (at the entry level end) is rarely about megapixels, dynamic range, encoding, bitrate, crop factor or any of that. It's mostly just, was it easy to use to record some video.

I think people who want the best 4k recording device possible will have to spend more money than this.

However, it's a stretch to say that 4k is "incredibly hobbled". Folks who are really into videography always say to use manual focus anyways. But personally, I am a Canon fan, and I could care less about 4k. I would much rather have that video record button reprogrammable to something else that has nothing to do with video :)

Actually if you consider the crop on this camera in 4K, it will be essentially shooting with a 1" sensor (M50 4K =2.56x, 1" = 2.7x). If you really want to shoot 4K, you would be better with many other 1" options including the Sony RX series. The next closest 1" ILC system was the discontinued Nikon 1 series. Nikon had to come out with a 6.7mm lens to make it shoot 18mm.
 

rrcphoto

EOS R6
Jun 20, 2013
2,505
147
ritholtz said:
Any one using M5, please explain these focus points modes. What is the deal with number of focus points. I thought every fixel is going to act like a focus point. I use live view with tracking option for video shooting. Never tried with by selecting single focusing point. AF operation vs AF mode is very confusing with M series.

in auto AF modes, the camera selects one of of a number of the focus "zones" for lack of a better words. If you are in AI Servo, face or probably eye detect, or single point AF, you can basically move the point to whereever you want in the area of supported AF coverage, irrespective of the zones.

basically the 49 point / 99 point / 139 point zones are only used for automatic AF areas. As processing gets faster, I would imagine these number of zones will continue to go up.
 

rrcphoto

EOS R6
Jun 20, 2013
2,505
147
neuroanatomist said:
As expected. The 'Canon must offer 4K' (or they're *******) mantra has become 'Canon must offer high IQ 4K' (or they're *******).

Complainers gonna complain.

while it certainly is a disappointment as far as what was offered, we all need to take a deep breath and step back from the ledge.

this was a cheap camera, ergonomically sitting to around where the M100 is. it doesn't supplant the M5, or the M6,etc.

4K h.264 at a healthy bitrate is actually a good sign of things to come and probably the only takeaway.

the other improvements should certainly spark the next generation of M5,6 and 100 camera bodies.

People didn't get a CINI 4K camera for $799 from Canon in an entry level camera. go figure.

one problems with rumors is that they tend to not manage expectations well.

everyone in here seems to be suffering from that. Heck some in here were giddy thinking it would have cini RAW light ..
 

Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
6,857
2,471
Alberta, Canada
"one problems with rumors is that they tend to not manage expectations well."


Just like other new camera threads - only putting in nickle but they want a dollar song. :) Don't we all. ;)

Jack
 

fussy III

EOS M6 Mark II
Mar 6, 2013
99
1
Talys said:
ritholtz said:
If some one wants to buy Canon M camera for wild life, isn't M50 better choice than M5. It has latest version of DPAF and improved focusing system. I think it can also shoot with faster FPS.

I understand why someone may want to buy a Canon M, and I understand why someone who has one would use it to photograph wildlife. But I can't imagine why someone would specifically choose a Canon M for wildlife photography.

If you do not comprehend the need to combine truly silent shutter with workable AF in wildlife photography, you are simply not experienced in wildlife-photography. So why do you comment?

I had stated I had invested into the Ef-System already. But no matter how fast or rugged of a Canon-Camera I employ, all of them make some kind of shutter noise. Silent mode just has not been truly silent with Canon so far because electronic shutter was missing from the system until now. Ruggedness and fps I can sacrifize in many situations, especially sitting in a hide photographing shy and alert mammals. So the M50 would have been "ok" for my needs if it had not been for the stupid and exclusive implementation of electronic shutter into SCN-mode.

None of this means to say that I applaud Canon for not offering a fast and rugged mirrorless pro-level camera with electronic shutter for bigger money.

Crippling silence into the SCN-mode must seem like a stupid move by Canon to any experienced photographer or intelligent being. No soup for anyone! I simply do not understand why Canon seems to be embracing incompetent fools only and to noone's benefit. IMO people who do not understand manual exposure should not be messing with electronic shutter.
 

Yasko

EOS 90D
Jun 9, 2017
125
18
What about the sensor? It's the same as on their new "higher" entry level cameras, isn't it?
So is it better than the previous that is in the 80D/M5 or is it some strange version with some disadvantages to keep the distance? :eek:
 

ritholtz

EOS RP
Mar 25, 2014
588
14
Yasko said:
What about the sensor? It's the same as on their new "higher" entry level cameras, isn't it?
So is it better than the previous that is in the 80D/M5 or is it some strange version with some disadvantages to keep the distance? :eek:
Video on DPReview says it is same as 80d/M5 in terms of tech. So that is a great news in terms of low ISO DR.
Can some one explain expected behavior with respect to AF Operations vs AF mode,

One-shot with Single, multi and face detection
Servo with Single, multi and face detection.
 

Sharlin

EOS R
CR Pro
Dec 26, 2015
1,375
1,315
Turku, Finland
rrcphoto said:
while it certainly is a disappointment as far as what was offered, we all need to take a deep breath and step back from the ledge.

I'd say it's only a disappointment to those with the most optimistic interpretations of the leaked specs. Even as is, it's really progressive tech-wise for an entry-level Canon camera and great value for money.
 

Sharlin

EOS R
CR Pro
Dec 26, 2015
1,375
1,315
Turku, Finland
ritholtz said:
Can some one explain expected behavior with respect to AF Operations vs AF mode

  • Single: You pick an AF rectangle somewhere on the screen, like you would with a phone. The camera won't move the point automatically. Just like with OVF AF but you can pick exactly where to focus, not just select from a grid of AF points.
    • One Shot: When you start AF (BBF/shutter half-press/touch focus if enabled) the camera focuses once and then disengages AF.
    • Servo AF: The camera keeps focusing on whatever's within the selected AF rectangle.

  • Multi: You pick one of the predefined large AF zones, each containing a 3x3 grid of smaller AF rectangles, or the whole AF area. The camera decides which AF rectangles to use to focus within the selected zone. This is basically exactly how OVF AF zones work in a DSLR.
    • One Shot: The camera selects where to focus within the selected zone, focuses, then disengages.
    • Servo AF: The camera keeps focusing on whatever's within the selected zone, automatically switching between AF rectangles based on some logic.

  • Face+Tracking: You pick an object or feature and the camera starts tracking it even when it's not actively focusing. If there are faces in the scene and you haven't picked anything else, it tracks them. If the camera loses what it's tracking and doesn't find anything else, it falls back to Multi.
    • One Shot: The camera stops tracking, focuses once on whatever's currently within the tracking rectangle, then disengages.
    • Servo AF: The camera keeps tracking and focusing at the same time.
 
D

Deleted member 378664

Guest
rrcphoto said:
dpreview is reporting:

4K video at 1.6 crop with no DPAF at a bitrate of 120mbps h.264

On the german EOS M50 site it is stated:
Bei 4K-Aufnahmen mit Movie Servo AF wird die Methode zur Kontrast-Erkennung eingesetzt.
translated:
During 4k recording with movie servo AF the CDAF method will be used.
Which AF method will or can be used with movie servo AF switched off?

Or does the camera do not have the possibility to switch off servo AF as it is the case with the M5?

Frank
 
Feb 26, 2018
2
0
Yet another pointless camera from Canon for those of us who want a decent hybrid solution. Canon is still years and years behind the competition, and moving slower than a glacier.

- The crop factor is absurd
- Only contrast detect AF in 4K

Sadly the masses will eat this up.
 
Feb 26, 2018
2
0
Talys said:
Whoa...

Fully articulating screen!!! <3
Touch drag autofocus
Pupil AF

I hope M5 mkII has an articulating screen like that.

Nah, not whoa. Meh. Still years and years behind the competition. It's like Canon is not even trying.