Mirrorless Camera & New Full Frame Coming Second Half 2012? [CR2]

[D_Rochat]

By the way, I don't think the demand is for aps-c, I think the demand is for a capable camera at a reasonable cost. If you dropped a FF sensor in a weather sealed 70D, i don't think the sensor size would impede sales.

People still want the APS-C for many reasons. Cost is definatley one of them, but reach is the big one. Bird and other wildlife types like the extra reach at no extra cost. They can effectively turn a 400mm to a 640mm with the APS-C. Add a 1.4 converter and you have a 896mm reach or 1280 with a 2X.

The APS-C brigade have explained why they still want and need one on this very forum many times. Then there is also the EF-S argument mentioned above. My heart won't be broken if they do away with that sensor, I just don't think it's going to happen yet. At least not on the xxD line.

But that "reach" is only because the sensor is smaller. And the optics of the camera are set up for that smaller sensor. As I said before, when EVF's take over optical view finders (yes this will happen eventually), you can still have your "crop" sensor for free, with a crop mode on the EVF and the image being automatically cropped in camera if you want it to.

But I understand that these changes may be a long way off. And for now, yes, the reach thing with aps-c is still valid. So for the time being, aps-c has more use than just cheapness. But when faced with the problem of differentiating dslr's from compact mirrorless, will Canon keep an aps-c around just for "reach"?

Time will tell.

 

[XanuFoto]

There could be a market for high MP bodies. But most Nikon wedding photogs I know say they are sticking with the D700. So this market is limited to Landscape and Studio photographers. Most serious studio guys use MF and not many Landscape photographers are money owners. So I am not sure who these High Mp buyers will be.

I've heard the same and the new mkIII makes for the must have wedding body as well, but there's got to be a reason why the D800 is Amazon's top selling camera (not just DSLR) right now. I won't buy a mp monster, but there are people who want them for what ever reason.

It will be interesting to see who these buyers are. Nikon definitely gave he razor away cheap and is hoping to make money on the blades (lenses and accessories). Whether these buyers will then sepnd the money of the accessories is the issue. The money is made on lenses and flashes.

 

[Terry Rogers]

By the way, I don't think the demand is for aps-c, I think the demand is for a capable camera at a reasonable cost. If you dropped a FF sensor in a weather sealed 70D, i don't think the sensor size would impede sales.

People still want the APS-C for many reasons. Cost is definatley one of them, but reach is the big one. Bird and other wildlife types like the extra reach at no extra cost. They can effectively turn a 400mm to a 640mm with the APS-C. Add a 1.4 converter and you have a 896mm reach or 1280 with a 2X.

The APS-C brigade have explained why they still want and need one on this very forum many times. Then there is also the EF-S argument mentioned above. My heart won't be broken if they do away with that sensor, I just don't think it's going to happen yet. At least not on the xxD line.

But that "reach" is only because the sensor is smaller. And the optics of the camera are set up for that smaller sensor. As I said before, when EVF's take over optical view finders (yes this will happen eventually), you can still have your "crop" sensor for free, with a crop mode on the EVF and the image being automatically cropped in camera if you want it to.

But I understand that these changes may be a long way off. And for now, yes, the reach thing with aps-c is still valid. So for the time being, aps-c has more use than just cheapness. But when faced with the problem of differentiating dslr's from compact mirrorless, will Canon keep an aps-c around just for "reach"?

The d800 has the same "reach" as a ~15mp crop camera (same pixel density). I believe that as processor power increases (digic VI?) and memory write speed increases, cameras will be able to handle 40+mp files at 7-8 fps. Alternatively, as nikon already does, offer an aps-c crop mode (dx mode), thus taking the strain off the memory and processor power to handle extremely large files. Such a camera fitted with an f/8 sensetive autofocus point would be an increadible wildlife/nature tool. The crop "reach" and pixel density when you put on your telephotos to shoot the wildlife (with the much needed f/8 autofocus point) and the massive resolution for landscapes. The best of both worlds. All you're sacrificing is low light sensitivity (and possibly diffraction induced softness, but that's a whole other topic). If low light is your concern, then buy a 5diii. Or, offer pixel binning in the 40+mp camera when shooting small raw files (20mp?) and you could conceivably increase the low light capabilities by another stop.

 

[BestExposures]

This post has many parts, the bottom one is my review of the 5D3 after a week with it.

1st - Ummm, Correct me if I am wrong - but the 5D3 I am holding in my hand, isn't that the replacement for the 5D2, just as the 5D2 was the replacement for the 5D?

2nd note - I read about a new lens mount, not sure why Canon (or its clients for that matter) would support that kind of idea. If Canon is going to play games, and basically require us all to buy new glass - I can tell you now that I will, as many others will, leave the Canon brand. If on the other hand, they have two models, like they do the C300 - fine, let them do whatever they want. But I made a decision to go with Canon only a few years ago, and I can easily change my decision if they plan on forcing us to reinvest into glass all over again. I would like to ask other Canon owners to stand with me, refusing to buy into a new lens mount paradigm. I will actually go so far as to contact Canon owners and do a call campaign to keep them from that product.

I like your forum, been reading it for years now. This message is for the Canon R&D guys to read carefully, not against you, as I can tell by your comment that you feel the same way about the lens mount issue. I don't even want to have to use a converter - the more points of contact, the less weather sealed it will be. But at the very least, yes, there better be a converter. And it better be free if they are going to pull this crap on us.

part 3- As for the 5D3 - I am a HUGE fan. I have been playing with it for about a week now, and I have to admit that the tweaks are very significant. The 5D2, sitting next to it on my desk is a fantastic camera as it is, we all know that, but the 5D3 is obviously a product of many peoples input, and they took it all into consideration when they released this model. I would like to see the time restriction removed for US bound models - I understand the problem in the UK. But for me, that would be a fantastic programming update, even if it costs money, because when I am shooting a wedding, I have never once been happy to stop and restart the recording. The low light is at least 3-4 stops better, and the expanded ISO range (H2) is fantastic, its nearly night vision!! I have some sample pictures, unedited because adobe is still working on the file type - but it shows how crisp, clean, vibrant the images are. But I did find a flaw.... I have already on two occasions have the lens unlock and detach from the body without warning. Something that has NEVER happened to me on any body in the history of my life - happened twice in two weeks. I will let you all know what Canon says about this. I am also working on shooting video and stills side by side with the 5D2/5D3 to show the difference. I know its just a megapixel difference, and people who count MP's as the "end all, be all of human existence" - Ferris B., I would suggest they buy the newest Nokia camera phone with over 40MP's.... but I now understand what Nikon owners were saying about quality over quantity. This 22MP sensor is fantastic. I hope those of you who that are thinking whether or not to buy one, chose to get one. Not because I own stock (which I don't) but because you will very quickly realize, as I have, that this sensor is a whole new ball game, and Canon just hit a Grand-Slam.

I don't use a lot of HDR, but the in camera HDR is actually usable. Sure, you can blow it out of proportions and make it nasty or hard to look at, but you can control the HDR down to a normal level, all without software. I shot a few pictures at the park, and the onboard HDR actually made the shot look like a medium format quality picture. Adding just a little to the image. Side by side with the original I can see how much just a little boost can do. Most of my previous dealings with HDR were not as great. But the fact that you can control the HDR - and use it wisely or go nuts with it, there are various degrees to choose from. When you add this to the various picture styles the number of outcomes is truly infinite. I also like the fact you can have more than 3 shots in the AEB settings. without picking up the camera two feet away I think its either 7 or 9 images... ok, ok, let me look here.... ok, its 7, but each can be up to /-3, so that can go from 9 to -9!!! and another option is multiple exposures - and that has up to 9. Haven't used that yet though.

The number of AF points is fantastic - and although I will probably never use this, you can use them to display the electronic level in the viewfinder. Thats not useful to me, but maybe someone needs that... in any case, its neat. But the other, more normal uses for those AF points are much more important and useful. It even lets you have a different set AF point for landscape and portrait. I don't think the 6D2 had that, did it?

The Dual cards are great, and they give you a lot of options on how to use them. I personally will use one as my primary, and one as a backup of my wedding shots when a corrupted card can get you sued. This way, before you ever back up your files, you already backed up all your files. FANTASTIC. But you can also use them so that one can playback while the other records, or auto switch when one is full. Two other options that I don't quite understand fully, gotta play with it more... aw shucks, I'm gonna hate playing with my brand new camera LOL

Sorry this is so long, being my first post I wanted to really JUMP IN and get yelled at by all of you at once JK.

Jason
Best Exposures Photography
www.bestexposures.com
Chicago, IL

<div name="googleone_share_1" style="position:relative;z-index:5;float: right; /*margin: 70px 0 0 0;*/ top:70px; right:120px; width:0;"><glusone size="tall" count="1" href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/03/mirrorless-camera-new-full-frame-coming-second-half-2012-cr2/"></glusone></div><div id="fb_share_1" style="float: right; margin: 0 0px 0 10px;"><a name="fb_share" type="box_count" share_url="http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/03/mirrorless-camera-new-full-frame-coming-second-half-2012-cr2/" href="http://www.facebook.com/sharer.php">Share</a></div><div><script src="http://static.ak.fbcdn.net/connect.php/js/FB.Share" type="text/javascript"></script></div><div class="tweetmeme_button" style="float: right; margin-left: 10px; margin-bottom: 70px;"><a class="tm_button" rel="&style=normal&b=2" href="http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/03/mirrorless-camera-new-full-frame-coming-second-half-2012-cr2/"></a></div>
<strong>Odds & Ends



</strong>A know source has mentioned a couple of things in regards to products coming in late 2012.</p>
<p><strong>Mirrorless Announcement

</strong>I’m told that Canon’s foray into the mirrorless world will begin in August with an announcement. Photokina is in September, so it makes a lot of sense to announce at the end of summer.</p>
<p><strong>New Full Frame

</strong>A suggestion that Canon will announce an “entry level” full frame camera in the fall of 2012. A true replacement to the 5D Mark II?</p>
<p>That would bring about 4 new full frame cameras in the span of about a year if we include the coming 4K DSLR. Most assume that will be a full frame camera.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>

 

[rpt]

The balancing factor here is that less experienced photographers appreciate more megapixels for greater crop flexibility to compensate for their ability to not quite get the framing right all of the time.

So true! Frame it right. It isn't that hard once you know what you want - that is the hard part .

 

[eijnaix]

I'm hopping canon comes up witha retro style mirrorless and a that beat FujiFlim X-Pro1 , totally impressed with their highly rated lens and IQ except their AF system......

I'm holding it back till year end before i get that bad ass x-pro1....hope canon can come up with something

 

[Marsu42]

There's no such thing as an "entry level" full-frame camera...makes zero sense marketing/business wise.

It does make sense for Canon to keep people on their eos *platform*.

Some people here constantly advise crop users to use ef L lenses, but while they are usable they actually aren't made for aps-c. So with a crop body, when the 5d2 will be phased out it's the decision: 3500 bucks for a body to start with or a crop camara with ef-s lenses? And since the competition is closing in, many people might choose the third option and jump ship to non-Canon (mirrorless) or system cameras.

We all know a body is only the start of one's investment in photography: more and better lenses are sure to follow, and there's more money to be made for Canon here than from current mass-market entry level dslrs plus your average kit lens or one 15-85 upgrade.

 

[x-vision]

There is definitely a market for a $2000 full frame camera.

Yes ... and the 5DII covers this market already.
It will also cover it during the holidays this year and in early 2013.

After that, the 5DIII will start dropping in price and in 18-24 months will sell (like hotcakes) for $2500.
When the price drops to that level (and below), it will leave room in the lineup for a new $3000-3500 body with 30+ megapixels.

So, as other posters have said, no room for a NEW $2000 FF from Canon right now - and in the next four-five years.
Who knows after that.

 

[flangad]

mirrorless: micro 4/3 or nothing.
I'm affraid Canon won't chose this way... but i strongly believe they SHOULD do!

 

[randplaty]

There is definitely a market for a $2000 full frame camera.

Yes ... and the 5DII covers this market already.
It will also cover it during the holidays this year and in early 2013.

After that, the 5DIII will start dropping in price and in 18-24 months will sell (like hotcakes) for $2500.
When the price drops to that level (and below), it will leave room in the lineup for a new $3000-3500 body with 30+ megapixels.

So, as other posters have said, no room for a NEW $2000 FF from Canon right now - and in the next four-five years.
Who knows after that.

The 5D2 is being replaced by this camera. That means that this camera will have everything the 5D2 has plus a few extra features. I think it'll be a 5D2 + high megapixel count + 7D AF for $2500.

The 5D3 will not drop in price that far. It'll probably get to $3000 but not below that.

 

[sphax]

There is definitely a market for a $2000 full frame camera.

Yes ... and the 5DII covers this market already.
It will also cover it during the holidays this year and in early 2013.

After that, the 5DIII will start dropping in price and in 18-24 months will sell (like hotcakes) for $2500.
When the price drops to that level (and below), it will leave room in the lineup for a new $3000-3500 body with 30+ megapixels.


So, as other posters have said, no room for a NEW $2000 FF from Canon right now - and in the next four-five years.
Who knows after that.

The 5D2 is being replaced by this camera. That means that this camera will have everything the 5D2 has plus a few extra features. I think it'll be a 5D2 + high megapixel count + 7D AF for $2500.

The 5D3 will not drop in price that far. It'll probably get to $3000 but not below that.

Well would that make sense ? I mean I think the 5DmkII is still selling pretty well, and specially a lot of people (including me) were waiting for the 5DmkIII annoucement to go FF, have been disappointed by the price of it, or not rich enough to afford it, and thus bought a 5DmkII that has been for 4 or 5 years described as the best camera ever, or something like this ... if they do some kind of update of the 5DmkII they'd disappoint most of the people who went straight to the mkII when finding out they couldn't afford the mkIII ! And I don't mention the fact that A LOT of photographers are really really fine with 9 AF points ...

 

[D.Sim]

mirrorless: micro 4/3 or nothing.
I'm affraid Canon won't chose this way... but i strongly believe they SHOULD do!

And why is that? I'd be perfectly happy if Canon came out with an APS-C/FF mirrorless

 

[elflord]

mirrorless: micro 4/3 or nothing.
I'm affraid Canon won't chose this way... but i strongly believe they SHOULD do!

And why is that? I'd be perfectly happy if Canon came out with an APS-C/FF mirrorless

If they did MF, then they'd add to an already mature system, whereas if they do their own, we'll have yet another mirrorless system that has a limited lens selection (like all mirrorless systems besides m43).

Personally, I don't care -- I'm happy with m43 regardless of what Canon does.

 

[D.Sim]

mirrorless: micro 4/3 or nothing.
I'm affraid Canon won't chose this way... but i strongly believe they SHOULD do!

And why is that? I'd be perfectly happy if Canon came out with an APS-C/FF mirrorless

If they did MF, then they'd add to an already mature system, whereas if they do their own, we'll have yet another mirrorless system that has a limited lens selection (like all mirrorless systems besides m43).

Personally, I don't care -- I'm happy with m43 regardless of what Canon does.

Thats sorta my point - why would Canon want to venture into the M4/3 system, rather than sticking with and using what they already have? m4/3 or nothing seems... counterintuitive.

 

[psolberg]

doubt canon will cannibalize its best selling camera ever...the rebel. the next body is the 7d successor. No more full frame bodies on 2012. 8)

 

[wickidwombat]

any point hoping for a rebirth of APS-H in the mirrorless?

 

[sphax]

If I had to wager, a 5D3 minus the AF, frame rate and build quality. $1999 anyone?

The question would be why people should buy that instead of a second-hand 5D2.

I have a feeling that there is something missing from the story.

Because the second hand 5D2 is second hand.

If Canon can sell an entry level full frame camera, at a profit, why shouldn't they?

Sure about that second hand thing, weird to compare these.
And of course if they can sell it, they should, but don't you think it's way easier to just lower the price of the 5DmkII ?? That camera has been a killer for four years now, so I can honestly say that it would still be pretty damn good for some years as an "entry full-frame" !! What I wanna say is that if you need an "entry" full-frame camera and don't wanna go for the expensive mkIII, then it kinda means that you can deal with only 9 AF pts IMO ... Or maybe it's just about marketting and having the new fashion, anyway ...

 

[nentraC]

Why would canon sale a 4 year old body (5DMK2) at a price below 2000€ if they can build a cheaper FF body at the same price tag whit a biger profit. (aluminum isnted of a magnesium aloy, a little bit mor platicky,...) it add's up.

Ok for the time being til the end of the year but i don't see it further. Like some of you said Canon can't sale a 4 year old body to new customers, just to upgrader who know what they want.

Oh or a FF T4i (crazy tought i know but i can dream) i think the 7d replacement will be FF like some of you sugested.

my 2 cents

 

[sphax]

If I had to wager, a 5D3 minus the AF, frame rate and build quality. $1999 anyone?

The question would be why people should buy that instead of a second-hand 5D2.

I have a feeling that there is something missing from the story.

Because the second hand 5D2 is second hand.

If Canon can sell an entry level full frame camera, at a profit, why shouldn't they?

Sure about that second hand thing, weird to compare these.
And of course if they can sell it, they should, but don't you think it's way easier to just lower the price of the 5DmkII ?? That camera has been a killer for four years now, so I can honestly say that it would still be pretty damn good for some years as an "entry full-frame" !! What I wanna say is that if you need an "entry" full-frame camera and don't wanna go for the expensive mkIII, then it kinda means that you can deal with only 9 AF pts IMO ... Or maybe it's just about marketting and having the new fashion, anyway ...

Because the entire camera is currently 3.5 years old.

Tell me what other electronic device you would buy "new" today that was released 3.5 years ago?

My MacBookPro is 3 years old and works just perfectly although I quite push him (architect stuff ...) so guess how good it would work if I'd buy it new right now ? Although it's "already" three years old. So as I said : it's all about the new fashion, not about what people actually need. If professional photographers used the mkII for "3.5 years" I guess nowadays it's just about perfect for who's not professional. Therefore for who needs an "entry" full-frame ...

 

[Caps18]

Release an 'entry level' medium format, high resolution camera...