Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
Why spend so much time on sticking a label on these products?
The 7D is just what it is, with exactly the features that it has! Discussing the "flagship" or "pro" labels doesn't help anybody because it's completely irrelevant, it's not as if the camera changes because it gets assigned an arbitrary label.
Let's at least speculate about the constellation of the product line-up, or about specifications of non-existing cameras, anything is more interesting than these labels!
briansquibb said:
Why spend so much time on sticking a label on these products?
The 7D is just what it is, with exactly the features that it has! Discussing the "flagship" or "pro" labels doesn't help anybody because it's completely irrelevant, it's not as if the camera changes because it gets assigned an arbitrary label.
Let's at least speculate about the constellation of the product line-up, or about specifications of non-existing cameras, anything is more interesting than these labels!
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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
To go on a journey you have to have directions. Directions are useless unless you know where you are.
So whether the 7D is indeed a flagship product is important and it will detirmine the marketing direction of its replacement
caruser said:
To go on a journey you have to have directions. Directions are useless unless you know where you are.
So whether the 7D is indeed a flagship product is important and it will detirmine the marketing direction of its replacement
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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
You can observe that, following the 7D, the xxD line was devaluated slightly, but that with the 650D the trend was reversed by giving an xxxD some features from the xxD line, and can therefore speculate on whether the new 70D will reach high enough to also succeed the 7D, or whether it means that the 7D2 will reach even higher. Now tell me how putting the "flagship" label on the 7D, or not, helps; this is a sincere question, I just fail to see it.
briansquibb said:
You can observe that, following the 7D, the xxD line was devaluated slightly, but that with the 650D the trend was reversed by giving an xxxD some features from the xxD line, and can therefore speculate on whether the new 70D will reach high enough to also succeed the 7D, or whether it means that the 7D2 will reach even higher. Now tell me how putting the "flagship" label on the 7D, or not, helps; this is a sincere question, I just fail to see it.
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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
What do you mean with xxD feaure in xxxD? AF? for me it is the normal evolution (it has been the same AF for many generations already). It happened with the 400D too (30D AF). If there was a pentaprism viewfinder in 650D, than it would be something..caruser said:
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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
If you read the original post you will see that it was suggested that the 7D was the 'flagship' If this is true and Canon replace it with something else then there is a marketing issue.
Personally it is not my understanding that the 7D was a flagship - just the top of the prosumer range. If this is true then I believe there are fewer issues in replacing it with an updated model labelled 70D (again top of the prosumer range) - allowing Canon greater freedom with the technology inside the '7DII'
caruser said:
If you read the original post you will see that it was suggested that the 7D was the 'flagship' If this is true and Canon replace it with something else then there is a marketing issue.
Personally it is not my understanding that the 7D was a flagship - just the top of the prosumer range. If this is true then I believe there are fewer issues in replacing it with an updated model labelled 70D (again top of the prosumer range) - allowing Canon greater freedom with the technology inside the '7DII'
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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
Sorry. When I said "flagship" in terms of the 7D, I was simply meaning Canon's flagship APS-C camera.
Didn't mean to get everyone in a tussle.
Sorry. When I said "flagship" in terms of the 7D, I was simply meaning Canon's flagship APS-C camera.
Didn't mean to get everyone in a tussle.
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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
from a marketing perspective, names are essentially a brand and Canon has accumulated a great deal of marketing capital in the 7D brand. If you consider that the 7D brand itself embodies the top APS-C body, it does seem likely that it would continue to emphasize that brand, and all that it stands for, and therefore unlikely that it would change sensors.
We can consider this from the standpoint of branding and how Canon intends to fulfill its stated commitment to pro sports/wildlife. Here are some scenario choices, which I would arrange in the following order of likelihood:
1. Canon emphasises the 7D2 "flagship" APS-C status enhancing the 7D brand to include pro wildlife activities as a companion to the 1DX. This of course depends on suitable APS-C sensor technology that can produce convincingly better images, even under low light, than one can obtain by cropping 1DX images to the same FOV.
2. 7D2 doesn't quite make it as (1) above describes, but Canon continues their wildlife niche camera brand with a new APS-H camera body, essentially a successor to the 1D4, that does produce convincingly better photos than the 1DX (or 5D3) cropped to the same FOV. If they cannot produce a "flagship" APS-C body with sufficient IQ to appeal to the the pros, or to compete directly with Nikon, they might still punt with an H body -- as expensive as that would be to continue the manufacturing investment of APS-H for only one body.
2.5: on edit: I guess a less likely (to me) but possible scenario is to put a twist into the 7D brand by making the 7D2 an APS-H body and propelling the 70D to the top prosumer APS-C body. THAT would be a fascinating show to watch, especially on this forum
3. Canon walks away from its its stated commitment to pro sports/wildlife, and produces no worthy crop body companion to the 1DX, and the pros just crop their 1DX images as subject distance requires. BTW, the equivalent APS-C crop is ~6MP.
briansquibb said:
from a marketing perspective, names are essentially a brand and Canon has accumulated a great deal of marketing capital in the 7D brand. If you consider that the 7D brand itself embodies the top APS-C body, it does seem likely that it would continue to emphasize that brand, and all that it stands for, and therefore unlikely that it would change sensors.
We can consider this from the standpoint of branding and how Canon intends to fulfill its stated commitment to pro sports/wildlife. Here are some scenario choices, which I would arrange in the following order of likelihood:
1. Canon emphasises the 7D2 "flagship" APS-C status enhancing the 7D brand to include pro wildlife activities as a companion to the 1DX. This of course depends on suitable APS-C sensor technology that can produce convincingly better images, even under low light, than one can obtain by cropping 1DX images to the same FOV.
2. 7D2 doesn't quite make it as (1) above describes, but Canon continues their wildlife niche camera brand with a new APS-H camera body, essentially a successor to the 1D4, that does produce convincingly better photos than the 1DX (or 5D3) cropped to the same FOV. If they cannot produce a "flagship" APS-C body with sufficient IQ to appeal to the the pros, or to compete directly with Nikon, they might still punt with an H body -- as expensive as that would be to continue the manufacturing investment of APS-H for only one body.
2.5: on edit: I guess a less likely (to me) but possible scenario is to put a twist into the 7D brand by making the 7D2 an APS-H body and propelling the 70D to the top prosumer APS-C body. THAT would be a fascinating show to watch, especially on this forum
3. Canon walks away from its its stated commitment to pro sports/wildlife, and produces no worthy crop body companion to the 1DX, and the pros just crop their 1DX images as subject distance requires. BTW, the equivalent APS-C crop is ~6MP.
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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
XD has ways meant pro level camera and NOT full frame at Canon.
XXD has meant prosumer/enthusiast
XXXD/Rebel has meant entry level.
The 7D is a pro level APS camera, just like the 1D MkIV is a pro level APS camera.
The 5D MkIII is a pro level full frame camera.
The 7D MkII will most likely be a pro level APS camera.
If Canon comes out with a new camera to answer the Nikon D600, it will most likely be the 70D, simply because it is full frame doesn't make it a pro level camera (sorry Nikon Fanbois).
Canon could simply choose to lower the price of the 5D MkII to as an answer to the D600.
Even if Canon moves the price of the 5D MkII to match the current 7D it would not substantially hurt 7D sales as the two cameras are targeted to different markets.
An APS sesnored 7D MkII could actually sell for substantially more than than either a full frame 70D or a 5D MkII with a lowered price, one only has to look at the 1D MkIV to realize this.
XD has ways meant pro level camera and NOT full frame at Canon.
XXD has meant prosumer/enthusiast
XXXD/Rebel has meant entry level.
The 7D is a pro level APS camera, just like the 1D MkIV is a pro level APS camera.
The 5D MkIII is a pro level full frame camera.
The 7D MkII will most likely be a pro level APS camera.
If Canon comes out with a new camera to answer the Nikon D600, it will most likely be the 70D, simply because it is full frame doesn't make it a pro level camera (sorry Nikon Fanbois).
Canon could simply choose to lower the price of the 5D MkII to as an answer to the D600.
Even if Canon moves the price of the 5D MkII to match the current 7D it would not substantially hurt 7D sales as the two cameras are targeted to different markets.
An APS sesnored 7D MkII could actually sell for substantially more than than either a full frame 70D or a 5D MkII with a lowered price, one only has to look at the 1D MkIV to realize this.
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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
No, I guess he meant that Canon will have an APS-C compete with a FF by Nikon.
(Science fiction imho)
whatta said:if 70d is FF, then xxxd and xxd owners cannot really upgrade to it if they have invested into efs (like meTTMartin said:).
I am more in favout of 8d/6d to be cheaper FF.
No, I guess he meant that Canon will have an APS-C compete with a FF by Nikon.
(Science fiction imho)
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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
Why exactly would a full frame 70D keep your from upgrading to an APS-C 7D MkII?
I upgraded from a 50D to a 7D, because I felt the 60D wasn't an upgrade for my type of shooting.
edit: for that matter you could upgrade to a 7D today.
whatta said:if 70d is FF, then xxxd and xxd owners cannot really upgrade to it if they have invested into efs (like meTTMartin said:
I am more in favout of 8d/6d to be cheaper FF.
Why exactly would a full frame 70D keep your from upgrading to an APS-C 7D MkII?
I upgraded from a 50D to a 7D, because I felt the 60D wasn't an upgrade for my type of shooting.
edit: for that matter you could upgrade to a 7D today.
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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
If the camera had all those features, you better believe it will be a $5k and up camera, defeating the purpose of the replacement.
ThomasN said:After reading this thread, I don't quite know what to think.
I did earlier write:
Canon must get their house in order
Entry level FF will be called 6D not 7DII because Canon will kill the 7D APS-C by making it FF and will not have the possibility to get back to 7D APS-C on a later time if that should fit into the lineup.
An entry level 6D makes sense.
And put the 7D to sleep and put the features into 70D, and let th 70D again be the top of the APS-C line.
This gives us this perfect lineup
1D Top of the line pro camera
3D (name saved for 3D video DSLR for movie use)
4D 46MP (or so) studio and pro 4K video camera
5D wedding and architect camera
6D Entry level FF
70D Top of the APS-C line (prosumer)
xxxD Top amateur APS-C line
xxxxD entry level DSLR
So on one hand something tells me that there will be no 7DII.
And then a 70D with all the 7D features, but improved, 22MP, better ISO, IQ, AF and DR, video features from the 650D and so on.
Nikon has just launched the D3200 with 24MP and we know marketing(Canon and all other) would love to appeal to the megapixel freaks. Not that you can compare the D3200 and a feature 70D/7DII.
Nikon is properly the main competitor and Nikon do have 4 lines: DX, DXX, DXXX and DXXXX though it’s mixed together and messy. Therefore it makes sense that Canon still has 4 lines: XD, XXD, XXXD and XXXXD (some order, please )
On the other hand the 7D has a very good position and brand in the market and that speaks for a 7DII showing up and Canon may therefore give still room for an APS-C camera in the FF proff line?
What do you guys think?
But whatever it will be called I would very much like the new 7DII/70D to be something like this:
Approx. 22 MP APS-C CMOS
ISO 100 – 25600
8-10 fps
Wireless EyeFi
1920x1080 (60, 30, 25 fps)
Hybrid AF
Stereo mic
2x Digic 5
SDXD and CF UDMA
Mid-size Magnesium alloy weather sealed body
OLED 3,2” 1.040.000 screen
This wouldn’t cannibalize from 1DX due to non-FF, lower ISO, lower fps an so on.
And if someone will say: but this is a wish liste. Yes sorry, you will be right.
But it would be an awesome killer camera and would beat all the competitors out in to the cold for many years. ;D
And I will like to apologize for my notes with the veeeery big letters on page 7. I did not mean to be rude. :-[
PS! Concerning APS-H.
I don’t think we will see a news APS-H. The technology today is so sophisticated that Canon will rather please the EF-S owners and use a new APS-C (and don’t use the APS-H.)
And more importent the economic synergy in letting the XXD, XXXD and XXXXD inherit the APS-C over time is too tempting.
If the camera had all those features, you better believe it will be a $5k and up camera, defeating the purpose of the replacement.
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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
You understand how unlikey it is that a hypothetical 70D will be a FF camera, right?
TTMartin said:whatta said:if 70d is FF, then xxxd and xxd owners cannot really upgrade to it if they have invested into efs (like meTTMartin said:
I am more in favout of 8d/6d to be cheaper FF.
Why exactly would a full frame 70D keep your from upgrading to an APS-C 7D MkII?
I upgraded from a 50D to a 7D, because I felt the 60D wasn't an upgrade for my type of shooting.
You understand how unlikey it is that a hypothetical 70D will be a FF camera, right?
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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
a 7d in 60d body (=? 70d) would be just right for me. mainly af and viewfinder what I'd like from 7d.
well, 7d is too big and heavy for me and 7d2 will be too expensive tooTTMartin said:whatta said:if 70d is FF, then xxxd and xxd owners cannot really upgrade to it if they have invested into efs (like meTTMartin said:
I am more in favout of 8d/6d to be cheaper FF.
Why exactly would a full frame 70D keep your from upgrading to an APS-C 7D MkII?
I upgraded from a 50D to a 7D, because I felt the 60D wasn't an upgrade for my type of shooting.
edit: for that matter you could upgrade to a 7D today.
a 7d in 60d body (=? 70d) would be just right for me. mainly af and viewfinder what I'd like from 7d.
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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
No I don't understand that at all. I find it so silly that everybody thinks that if Canon introduces an ENTRY LEVEL full frame camera, that it would have to have a XD moniker.
The only reason there is a 60D at all, is that when Canon upgraded the 50D to the 7D, everybody kept asking 'where is the 60D?'. So, Canon had both a marketing opportunity and a dilemma, slot a camera between the Rebel series and the 7D. So, Canon built the Super Rebel 60D.
There is absolutely no reason that the XXD line has to continue as an APS-C camera. It actually makes a lot more sense to have entry level APS-C cameras be XXXD/Rebels, and an entry level full frame camera be XXD cameras, and your pro level cameras regardless of sensor be XD.
Albi86 said:TTMartin said:whatta said:if 70d is FF, then xxxd and xxd owners cannot really upgrade to it if they have invested into efs (like meTTMartin said:
I am more in favout of 8d/6d to be cheaper FF.
Why exactly would a full frame 70D keep your from upgrading to an APS-C 7D MkII?
I upgraded from a 50D to a 7D, because I felt the 60D wasn't an upgrade for my type of shooting.
You understand how unlikey it is that a hypothetical 70D will be a FF camera, right?
No I don't understand that at all. I find it so silly that everybody thinks that if Canon introduces an ENTRY LEVEL full frame camera, that it would have to have a XD moniker.
The only reason there is a 60D at all, is that when Canon upgraded the 50D to the 7D, everybody kept asking 'where is the 60D?'. So, Canon had both a marketing opportunity and a dilemma, slot a camera between the Rebel series and the 7D. So, Canon built the Super Rebel 60D.
There is absolutely no reason that the XXD line has to continue as an APS-C camera. It actually makes a lot more sense to have entry level APS-C cameras be XXXD/Rebels, and an entry level full frame camera be XXD cameras, and your pro level cameras regardless of sensor be XD.
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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
let's have a 70D apsc and a 70DX for FF thenTTMartin said:whatta said:if 70d is FF, then xxxd and xxd owners cannot really upgrade to it if they have invested into efs (like meTTMartin said:
I am more in favout of 8d/6d to be cheaper FF.
There is absolutely no reason that the XXD line has to continue as an APS-C camera. It actually makes a lot more sense to have entry level APS-C cameras be XXXD/Rebels, and an entry level full frame camera be XXD cameras, and your pro level cameras regardless of sensor be XD.
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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
could be! nor is there any reason why 7D2 cant be APS-H. most of us here would quickly adjust to whatever Canon does.
Canon can do whatever they want, but their marketing departement might tell them that the 70D brand is important, and that the upgrade path for people with EF-S lenses from 60D to the Rebel branded camera is not acceptable. Here is where we are venturing into the marketing mind of Canon, a venue where not many of us are qualified...
I like 70DX though. cool suggestion by TMartin.
TTMartin said:
could be! nor is there any reason why 7D2 cant be APS-H. most of us here would quickly adjust to whatever Canon does.
Canon can do whatever they want, but their marketing departement might tell them that the 70D brand is important, and that the upgrade path for people with EF-S lenses from 60D to the Rebel branded camera is not acceptable. Here is where we are venturing into the marketing mind of Canon, a venue where not many of us are qualified...
I like 70DX though. cool suggestion by TMartin.
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Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6
Only if you buy EF-S lenses. However, many of us buy EF (L) lenses and those work on FF as well. The advantage of APS-C (and the prosumer/pro 7D) is that you can get a much longer reach.briansquibb said:
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