Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

[wickidwombat]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

I dont care what its called but I would like to see a high end APS-H sensor equiped camera that is a 5D form factor.

I don't think the APS-H is "dead" as others would think. I would believe that Canon will produce a APS-H high performace camera body in the next year or so, based on the 120MP APS-H prototype sensor they made a year ago.

D

I sincerely doubt the 120MP sensor will be making into a DSLR, imagine the 200MB files with current computing power and storage speeds. I do think that APS-H is not coming back and hope that it doesn't. I would much prefer Canon put some real R&D into APS-C and produce something which even nearly matches what competitors have been offering for years, think Pentax K5 or Sony 16MP. APS-C would give the reach people are asking for in a pro body, pair it with the 1d4 AF and your set. Then it would retain f8 focusing for the people who like essentially using telescopes and given the right build would be a worthy filler for the wildlife and super-duper-telephoto photographers. Price it at $2500AUD $2100US 2000EURO and people will happily pay the premium for some pro-er features and it'll be king of the crops.

if they just took the 1Dmk4 bits as they are now stuck it all in a 5Dmk3 body and sold it at $2500 i would buy one as soon as i could find one even if it is only 16MP

 

[Richard8971]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Make the 70d a 7dii-equivalent, but price it a few hundred less than the FF entry level camera, and everybody is happy (including Canon since they won't have two cameras at the same price competing for sales).

Won't happen. The 60D has become the "joke" of the Canon EOS bodies (I have seen it being called "The Rebel that should have been") compared to features found on previous XXD bodies. (What? The 30D had 5 fps as well... wait, at least the 30D had a metal body...) Tell me what other Canon EOS body was DOWNGRADED and then UPGRADED to the flagship body.

Like I have said, the 7D was designed and marketed as the FLAGSHIP APS-C camera body and will remain so. Can anyone give me a reasonable reason why the 7D replacement (and continue the 7D name) will not continue this tradition?? Oh and what marketing strategy are you basing your logic on? Remember, marketing (sales based on previous bodies) is the only thing Canon will be concerned with when they make a APS-C replacement and if you don't believe me, then you going to be sadly dissapointed with your prediction(s).

The 60D was "downgraded" so AS NOT TO DIRECTLY COMPETE with the 7D. Fact, fact, fact...

So now why would the so called "future" 70D compete with the 7D OR it's replacement? Based on history, the 70D should be, "feature-wise" somewhere in the lines of the 40D or XSi.... Makes sense to me. I mean why not? The new T4i is darn near a 60D in a slightly smaller body, so where does that leave the 70D? 7D status? They already have a 7D status camera body, THE 7D!!!

D

 

[briansquibb]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

The XD (7D) body was meant to be a test bed for the features found in the 5DIII, 1DX and other future cameras and was DESIGNED AND MARKETED to be the flagship APS-C camera.

Now, tell me WHY Canon would "upgrade" a dying, "downgraded" XXD class body in favor of dropping it's current flagship XD line? (7D)

The 7D upgrade (7DII) WILL remain APS-C AND the flagship camera body, you can bank on it.

D

The 7D is the top prosumer sports body and that is a niche that Canon have dominated for some years.

There is no reason why Canon cannot trickle down and improve this technology into the 70D - the traditional nomenclature for the prosumer range

In place of the 7D a new sports body would be needed to surpass the 70D. I dont believe the technology is important for the sports camera however it would have to:

- be good for birds/wildlife
- be good for sports
- be good in low light
- be good at higher iso (to keep the shutter speed fast)
- have good IQ/DR for bigger prints

There are 3 current technologies, APS-C, APS-H, FF

The difficulty here is that APS-C and FF fail on several points whereas APS-H is good (not excelling) at all of them

I believe that the EF-S issue can be discounted for a sports camera as the sports lens are all EF. Those with the high value EF-S lens would have a 70D which be at least as good as the 7D - perhaps with the same sensor as the 650D plus other enhancements

That leave APS-H as the easiest technology to use - as it has already been developed into the best sports camera, So trickling that technology down to the sports camera would cost least, be quick to get to market and give Canon a high profit body (due to the low R&D)

 

[Wild]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Make the 70d a 7dii-equivalent, but price it a few hundred less than the FF entry level camera, and everybody is happy (including Canon since they won't have two cameras at the same price competing for sales).

Won't happen. The 60D has become the "joke" of the Canon EOS bodies (I have seen it being called "The Rebel that should have been") compared to features found on previous XXD bodies. (What? The 30D had 5 fps as well... wait, at least the 30D had a metal body...) Tell me what other Canon EOS body was DOWNGRADED and then UPGRADED to the flagship body.

Like I have said, the 7D was designed and marketed as the FLAGSHIP APS-C camera body and will remain so. Can anyone give me a reasonable reason why the 7D replacement (and continue the 7D name) will not continue this tradition?? Oh and what marketing strategy are you basing your logic on? Remember, marketing (sales based on previous bodies) is the only thing Canon will be concerned with when they make a APS-C replacement and if you don't believe me, then you going to be sadly dissapointed with your prediction(s).

The 60D was "downgraded" so AS NOT TO DIRECTLY COMPETE with the 7D. Fact, fact, fact...

So now why would the so called "future" 70D compete with the 7D OR it's replacement? Based on history, the 70D should be, "feature-wise" somewhere in the lines of the 40D or XSi.... Makes sense to me. I mean why not? The new T4i is darn near a 60D in a slightly smaller body, so where does that leave the 70D? 7D status? They already have a 7D status camera body, THE 7D!!!

D

Let's just assume here for a second (this is a rumors site here so cut me some slack) that if and when the D600 is released at around $1500 (the D800 rumors of $3K were spot on if you remember) that Canon will more than likely release a new body to compete. All signs point to an entry-level FF anyways so it's more than likely to compete on pricing. So if Canon does release this body in the $1500-$2000 range, they're going to release a new version of the 7D in the same exact price range, if not more? That just doesn't make much sense - from a marketing stand point. I mean there's already enough confusion for consumers as it stands now, let alone if they release two more new bodies, one with the superior FF sensor with less features and one with an aps-c sensor with more features, at nearly the same price. Just doesn't add up if you look at it from a pricing perspective.

A 70d bump into the premium aps-c spot in the lineup makes sense. If they did however progress both the 60d and 7d with aps-c sensors, then what? A $850 T4i, a $1500ish 70d, and a $2000ish 7dii? Doesn't add up with a prospective entry-level FF (unless of course Canon's answer to the D600 is a $2700 6D FF camera) ;D

 

[Wild]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

That leaves APS-H as the easiest technology to use - as it has already been developed into the best sports camera, So trickling that technology down to the sports camera would cost least, be quick to get to market and give Canon a high profit body (due to the low R&D)

I'm right there with ya on the 70d being able to be bumped up to the 7d's spot, and that an aps-h sensor'd body would be a great alternative for the affordable pro sports camera, rather than another aps-c body.

Also, they bumped the 1d series up to FF, why can't they bump the 7d up to aps-h? Sounds reasonable to me...then again when has that ever mattered? ;D

 

[lola]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

If D600 is announced with the rumored specs and a price tag of $1500, there's no salvation for Canon after that. Fanboys were always good with finding blind excuses for dynamic range, resolution and stuff but I wonder what they'll say for the presumably good full-frame D600 with a $1500 price tag...

 

[Birdshooter]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Who cares about Full Frame. Not me that is for sure.
I would like a camera 7D style APS-C with better AF and better noise control. The 7D itself is already a terrific body.

When going to FF it means that I will have to invest in glass as well. More mm to get the same VOF. Don't give me the crap of adding extenders because:

• A) Already using extenders
• B) With extenders you will loose a stop of light (or two), but more important, you will loose AF speed and accuracy

Example the 300 F4 on an APS-C wil give you 480mm F4. This lens costs USD 1,500
To get the same VOF and aperture, you will need the 500 F4. This lens is just USD 9,000

Just explain to me why an wildlife photographer shooting birds would want to go FF. Why?

 

[briansquibb]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Who cares about Full Frame. Not me that is for sure.
I would like a camera 7D style APS-C with better AF and better noise control. The 7D itself is already a terrific body.

When going to FF it means that I will have to invest in glass as well. More mm to get the same VOF. Don't give me the crap of adding extenders because:

• A) Already using extenders
• B) With extenders you will loose a stop of light (or two), but more important, you will loose AF speed and accuracy

Example the 300 F4 on an APS-C wil give you 480mm F4. This lens costs USD 1,500
To get the same VOF and aperture, you will need the 500 F4. This lens is just USD 9,000

Just explain to me why an wildlife photographer shooting birds would want to go FF. Why?

This is why there is the suggestion of an APS-H sensor in the same body. The better high iso performance allows you to keep the shutter speed up at dawn and dusk. The equivalent lens to the 300 f/4 would be the 400 f/5.8 at a simillar cost.

 

[dlleno]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

...I am not sure I see the XXD becoming FF. Reason? It's the same reason why the XD line will not become FF, too many XXD owners and XD owners have EF-s lenses. An upgrade HAS to be justified by the buyer and if the upgrade cannot use ones current hardware, what's the point of upgrading?

Example, the 5D line has ALWAYS been FF, just as the Rebel line has ALWAYS been APS-C and so on and so on. Canon intergrated two high performance lines (1Ds and 1D) for the better, BUT APS-H bodies CANNOT use EF-s lenses SO, it makes sense to upgrade to the newer body.

I forsee the XXD and XD line becoming the new flagship APS-C camera (into the 7DII) and a new 5 series (or 3D) FF entry level. Canon will likely stay within current camera labels or create new ones (I.E. 3D or 6D) Simple marketing is my reasoning, they will likely keep the current tried and proven trends going.

D

nothing wrong with your reasoning; I would just bring in the following factors that seem to get left out of the discussions:

1. Canon has already telegraphed a willingness to shake up what has "always" been, in the product line, by merging the 1D and 1DS. So names like 7D2 and 7DX could appear, even at the same time, or some new integer that hasn't been used before.

2. The "glass" impact in (1) above for the 1D folks is not trivial. these guys have to either buy more glass and/or produce lower res shots by cropping. This is no insignificant thing especially for birds and small wildlife. make no mistake: the distance-constrained situation does actually happen, in spite of all the comments from those are speaking without experience.

3. Canon has not yet telegraphed how they will maintain their stated commitment to pro wildlife market

These factors leave lots of room to speculate on how Canon will fulfill (3) above. I see two possibilities

1. APS-H is out: pretty clear; 7D2 re-asserted as flagship crop body in APS-C and the pro togs carry a 7D2 as a second body. I'm still not sure there is room for four APS-C bodies... but thats another subject

2. APS-H is in: no matter what the new H body may be called, there will still be a premier APS-C body, so current 7D owners will have a choice to upgrade to the latest APS-C or have both H and C bodies to preserve their EF-S investment.

 

[pknight]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

The APS-H is a compromise for everyone. Those who want "reach" don't want to drop down to 1.3x, and those who want FF benefits don't want to, well, drop down to 1.3x. It should die.

 

[unfocused]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Can someone explain the logic here to me, because no matter how hard I try, it just doesn't make sense.

1) There are too many APS-C camera bodies. According to whom? They are all selling quite nicely, which is the criteria Canon and Nikon use to judge whether or not their marketing strategy is working. Does someone on this forum have some inside knowledge or secret criteria that trumps sales?

2) Canon and Nikon need to merge their second tier crop bodies with their flagship crop bodies. Why? Both seem to have found their markets and sell very well. As long as both companies recover their costs and make a profit on both bodies, what incentive is there to merge them?

3) There isn't enough room for differentiation between the 70D and 7DII. This is basically a variant of #2, but it is patently false. There is already a significant gap in features and construction between the 60D and 7D. The upgrade path for each is pretty clear: 70D inherits most of the features of the 7D, but retains the same body construction and style; 7DII inherits most of the features of the 5DIII but retains the APS-C sensor. Still plenty to differentiate them both and the full frame differentiates the 5DIII and the 7D II.

4) You can't have an APS-C body with a single-digit designation. Probably the most childish and irrational of the points. Who says? It's Canon's company and they can use any designation they want. It's a marketing tool and just like the "L" lens designation, it means whatever Canon wants it to mean. As their use of "L" demonstrates, they don't feel the need to be consistent in anything except that the designation means a higher price.

5) You can't have both an entry-level full frame camera and a flagship APS-C body. Setting aside the fact that this mysterious full frame camera has yet to surface, why can't you? If given a choice between a fully-equipped 7DII that basically mirrors the 5DIII in everything but sensor size vs. a stripped down full framer that causes all my telephoto lenses to lose more than a third of their reach, I know which I will pick. Both cameras can exist side by side because they both have different target markets.

6) Canon wants to move everyone to full frame. Well, yes, they said that several years ago. That's good marketing language, but I'm not seeing a lot of evidence to back it up. And, frankly, wouldn't it make more sense for Canon and Nikon to try to move their enthusiast, prosumer and professional markets to two bodies instead of just one. Having a top of the line 7DII and an entry-level full frame just gives them an opportunity to sell more cameras to the same customers.

Let me go back to point #5 briefly. If Canon is concerned about any camera sales being cannibalized by a bargain full frame body, wouldn't they be more concerned about the bargain camera hurting the sales of the 5DIII? If they make such a camera it has to compete with the feature set of the rumored Nikon full framer without coming too close to the 5DIII. That's a much bigger challenge to differentiation, than the challenge of differentiating the 7DII from the beginner's full frame camera.

(As an aside, how they do that, I think is pretty clear. They will do it the same way they differentiate the 60D from the 7D: Construction. The full framer will likely be an overgrown 60D in a similar composite body with a weaker autofocus and slower frame rate, but with a nifty swivel screen)

 

[KyleSTL]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

the whole EF-S lens thing is really a non issue for the following reasons

1) lets be real there are a total of 2 EF-S lenses worth having that are affected the 17-55 and the 15-85
the rest are blown away by EF lenses

I don't think I can buy this argument. first of all, you left out the 10-22. All three are high dollar S lenses which equal or approach L optical quality in a less expensive build quality. serious APS-C body users will have one and usually two out of the three

3) when people are using the crop for reach arguement they are NOT talking about EF-S lenses they are using longer EF lenses and often L lenses

well this point is not valid either because when people use the crop for reach argument along with the EF-S lens question they are talking about preserving their camera body's ability to function at WA and UWA FOVs with their existing glass. Look up the price of the 10-22 and the 17-55, and then imagine the migration to a FF body, making that investment suddenly useless. Thats big evidence in favor of an APS-C 7D2, and 70D bodies.

Canon is certainly able to produce cheap, FF AF lenses. They did it for 13 years before ever releasing a single digital body. Who's to say that Canon couldn't or won't produce a decent 24-85mm non-L IS, or 20-35mm, or 18-35 non-L given the right body to go along with it. There are tons of reasonable quality used lenses on the market (20-35mm f/3.5-4.5, 24-85 f/3.5-4.5, 28-105mm f/3.5-5.6, both 70-210mm lenses, 75-300 IS, 70-300 IS) that would go well with an affordable FF camera if/when released, and I'm sure Canon could do better after such a camera is made.

 

[dlleno]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

The APS-H is a compromise for everyone. Those who want "reach" don't want to drop down to 1.3x, and those who want FF benefits don't want to, well, drop down to 1.3x. It should die.

well it is a compromise, but not for everyone. APS-H would fill the same niche that it does today, which is a very good compromise/mix between reach and IQ/ISO/noise, esp in certain wildlife situations that have been mentioned. With sufficient APS-C advances in IQ of course, the need for H will diminish, and that could be what Canon is marching towards or even trying to accelerate.

in any case, the arguments against "H" have not yet credibly addressed the market needs of those currently served by it, imho anyway. Unless it is "7D2 will be killer APS-C with great low-light IQ, and the pro togs will be proud to carry that along side the 1DX"

 

[briansquibb]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

well this point is not valid either because when people use the crop for reach argument along with the EF-S lens question they are talking about preserving their camera body's ability to function at WA and UWA FOVs with their existing glass. Look up the price of the 10-22 and the 17-55, and then imagine the migration to a FF body, making that investment suddenly useless. Thats big evidence in favor of an APS-C 7D2, and 70D bodies.

They also forget the 8-15 fisheye, 14mm, 16-34 and 17mm TSE and that the 24-70/24-105 that cover the same as their lower grade ef-s lens

 

[bdunbar79]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Whether it's a 7D Mark II or a 70D, it would be stupid to say it won't be an APS-C sensor.

 

[briansquibb]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Whether it's a 7D Mark II or a 70D, it would be stupid to say it won't be an APS-C sensor.

The replacement for the 7D could be any of the 3 sensor types - there are valid arguments for them all

 

[distant.star]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

.
Wow.

Amen to that!

Can someone explain the logic here to me, because no matter how hard I try, it just doesn't make sense.

1) There are too many APS-C camera bodies. According to whom? They are all selling quite nicely, which is the criteria Canon and Nikon use to judge whether or not their marketing strategy is working. Does someone on this forum have some inside knowledge or secret criteria that trumps sales?

2) Canon and Nikon need to merge their second tier crop bodies with their flagship crop bodies. Why? Both seem to have found their markets and sell very well. As long as both companies recover their costs and make a profit on both bodies, what incentive is there to merge them?

3) There isn't enough room for differentiation between the 70D and 7DII. This is basically a variant of #2, but it is patently false. There is already a significant gap in features and construction between the 60D and 7D. The upgrade path for each is pretty clear: 70D inherits most of the features of the 7D, but retains the same body construction and style; 7DII inherits most of the features of the 5DIII but retains the APS-C sensor. Still plenty to differentiate them both and the full frame differentiates the 5DIII and the 7D II.

4) You can't have an APS-C body with a single-digit designation. Probably the most childish and irrational of the points. Who says? It's Canon's company and they can use any designation they want. It's a marketing tool and just like the "L" lens designation, it means whatever Canon wants it to mean. As their use of "L" demonstrates, they don't feel the need to be consistent in anything except that the designation means a higher price.

5) You can't have both an entry-level full frame camera and a flagship APS-C body. Setting aside the fact that this mysterious full frame camera has yet to surface, why can't you? If given a choice between a fully-equipped 7DII that basically mirrors the 5DIII in everything but sensor size vs. a stripped down full framer that causes all my telephoto lenses to lose more than a third of their reach, I know which I will pick. Both cameras can exist side by side because they both have different target markets.

6) Canon wants to move everyone to full frame. Well, yes, they said that several years ago. That's good marketing language, but I'm not seeing a lot of evidence to back it up. And, frankly, wouldn't it make more sense for Canon and Nikon to try to move their enthusiast, prosumer and professional markets to two bodies instead of just one. Having a top of the line 7DII and an entry-level full frame just gives them an opportunity to sell more cameras to the same customers.

Let me go back to point #5 briefly. If Canon is concerned about any camera sales being cannibalized by a bargain full frame body, wouldn't they be more concerned about the bargain camera hurting the sales of the 5DIII? If they make such a camera it has to compete with the feature set of the rumored Nikon full framer without coming too close to the 5DIII. That's a much bigger challenge to differentiation, than the challenge of differentiating the 7DII from the beginner's full frame camera.

(As an aside, how they do that, I think is pretty clear. They will do it the same way they differentiate the 60D from the 7D: Construction. The full framer will likely be an overgrown 60D in a similar composite body with a weaker autofocus and slower frame rate, but with a nifty swivel screen)

 

[bdunbar79]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Whether it's a 7D Mark II or a 70D, it would be stupid to say it won't be an APS-C sensor.

The replacement for the 7D could be any of the 3 sensor types - there are valid arguments for them all

What I meant was, if the sensor changes, why would it be a 7D Mark II? It wouldn't be a "Mark II", it would be a different model. Otherwise, I can't make sense of it.

 

[briansquibb]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Whether it's a 7D Mark II or a 70D, it would be stupid to say it won't be an APS-C sensor.

The replacement for the 7D could be any of the 3 sensor types - there are valid arguments for them all

What I meant was, if the sensor changes, why would it be a 7D Mark II? It wouldn't be a "Mark II", it would be a different model. Otherwise, I can't make sense of it.

I agree a different sensor would make more sense with a different number - 2,3,4,6,8 and 9 are free ;D

 

[dlleno]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Can someone explain the logic here to me, because no matter how hard I try, it just doesn't make sense.

Well I dont' pay much attention to random silliness so some these I've never even heard of. for example:

4) You can't have an APS-C body with a single-digit designation.

even on a rumor site, this one isn't even worth typing in "canonrumors.com" to read