Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

[x-vision]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

We will see an APS-C 7DII and it will be spectacular.

You realize that no crop camera stands a chance against the upcoming D600 in terms of image quality, right.

So, let's say Canon indeed makes an APS-C 7DII and prices it at $1699 (like the 7D).
The review sites will inevitably compare it to the similarly priced D600, with its 24mp latest generation Sony FF sensor (which will likely make the 5DIII sensor look bad).
How do you think these comparisons will turn out ???.

 

[briansquibb]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

We will see an APS-C 7DII and it will be spectacular.

You realize that no crop camera stands a chance against the upcoming D600 in terms of image quality, right.

So, let's say Canon indeed makes an APS-C 7DII and prices it at $1699 (like the 7D).
The review sites will inevitably compare it to the similarly priced D600, with its 24mp latest generation Sony FF sensor.
How do you think these comparisons will turn out ???.

Journos are infatuated with ff - but the wildlife people will see through that ....

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Isn't the 5D3 the FF 7D? What on Earth would a FF 7D2 be??

 

[Ricku]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

I don't care what they'll call the new cameras. I don't really care about the price either.

All I care about is that Canon gets their act together when it comes to sensor tech, especially low ISO read noise (dynamic range).

Nikon/Sony's sensor tech has a ridiculously big advantage right now, and makes the 5D3 sensor look like a toy.

 

[wickidwombat]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

I don't care what they'll call the new cameras. I don't really care about the price either.

All I care about is that Canon gets their act together when it comes to sensor tech, especially low ISO read noise (dynamic range).

Nikon/Sony's sensor tech has a ridiculously big advantage right now, and makes the 5D3 sensor look like a toy.

in the imortal words of Brian

what hogwash you speak

 

[nicku]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

I still hope to see a new entry level FF camera; not the 7D with a FF sensor inside. From my point of view now Nikon is leading the trend in DSLR market. Canon is following and try to keep the pace.

The only think that Canon have and Nikon doesn't is the APS-H sensor. A 7D2 with an APS-H sensor inside will be a unique camera on the market. Think about the 7D2 with 22MP APS-H sensor inside 8-10 fps and 1D4 AF at say $2500. i believe will be a huuuge success; don't mention that will be a camera format without any rival. That is marketing.

 

[Chuck Alaimo]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

you know, I could really actually easily see this as a move canon would do. when they announced the specs for the mk3, they also made it known that the mk2 would be continued until end of 2012. With the cost and spec sheet of the mk3, taking that around $2000 camera off the scene would be a blow. And if nikon is doing a around $2000 FF, what better way to revamp the 7D. Lots have said the only issue with the 7d was that its 1.6 crop (of course, those in wildlife would disagree). For those in studio, wedding, and fine art though a good FF cam in the 2K price range would be awesome. More times than not, the 7D is compared to the 5d2, and vice versa. In fact, many 5d2 users love the IQ, but wisdhed for the functionality of the 7D, and many 7d users have wanted a FF 7D (basically for the AF and fps). Now we have the mk3, which I think is a pretty badass camera, with an AF system that is far better than the mk2. I got my first taste on one last night. The quality of the shots I saw on it at ISO 128,000 with no flash ...frankly WOW, better than what I see out of my 7D at 4000-6400 with flash. So the mk2 crowd should be way pleased (unless you never shoot in low light!) But that leaves all of those folks on a 7D wondering whats next, save for the mk3???? That's where I think a FF 7D makes a lot of sense....

make it awesome enough to bring the 7d crowd in, while not cannibalizing mk3 sales:

Dual digic 5+
one CF card slot
FF sensor 18 MP
ISO range 100-128,000 (1 stop shy of mk3)
21pt AF (same as current 7d)
8fps

That would make for a solid backup to the mk3 for wedding shooters. That would also make for a really nice upgrade for current 7D users. It kind of would be the camera everyone wanted to see in the mk3 (actually, the cam we wanted before the mk3 and the d800 became a reality - now there will be - I want MP and dynamic range whining, but, before the mk3 and d800 was announced, people wanted nothing more than the 7D AF with a 5d sensor...)

if the specs for the new T4i are any indication of whats next, its really hard to find a spot for the 7d. I am suspecting the 70d will be improved enough to take the 7d's place as the king of crop sensor for canon.

The only other direction I could see for the 7D is this:

APS-C sensor
30 MP
fill in the rest with whatever...

 

[wickidwombat]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

I still hope to see a new entry level FF camera; not the 7D with a FF sensor inside. From my point of view now Nikon is leading the trend in DSLR market. Canon is following and try to keep the pace.

The only think that Canon have and Nikon doesn't is the APS-H sensor. A 7D2 with an APS-H sensor inside will be a unique camera on the market. Think about the 7D2 with 22MP APS-H sensor inside 8-10 fps and 1D4 AF at say $2500. i believe will be a huuuge success; don't mention that will be a camera format without any rival. That is marketing.

damn right! the big keys to success are

1) competitors have no equivalent sensor so no direct competition
2) keeping the older AF (which is proven and reliable) and thus keeping the f8 AF which also gets around that little annoyance that the new sensors dont do f8 might divert a fair bit of flak at least giving people an option
3) 5Dmk3 build quality VF nifty functions like the Dof preview button being configurable etc
4) a price point close to $2000 but realistically based on canons current prices we would see it come in at $2500

 

[briansquibb]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

APS-C sensor
30 MP
fill in the rest with whatever...

I think that would be pushing the lens too hard

The current EF-S lens would not make it - and those are the main argument for keeping the APS-C sensors

 

[birtembuk]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

There’s a price war looming. Canon is going to be hard pressed to adjust to whatever the competition push them to do. Good for us anyway.

Now, As far as the format goes, I don’t see just how Canon could manage to keep prices in check if they dilute the sensor size all over the range. Besides, correct me if I’m wrong, APS-H would not take the EF-S line. So, it looks like after the 70D with 22 MP, my take is that we’re going to see a 7DII with the same sensor and a bunch of badass features. Just nice for file size and don’t forget, just nice for video downsizing.

I would guess that the debate might go like this: for about 2000 bucks, would you prefer a crappy FF or a very capable APS-C ? I know, sometimes consumers just don’t know a damn thing about technology and just want the latest gizmo available. This might be a marketing factor. But. Larger sensors will remain more expensive for a while. This means you’ve got to strip down somewhere to keep price low. So, I don’t see what’s wrong with APS-C myself. Good for price, very good for wild life, very good for macro, very good for those who carry one FF and one APS-C as second camera: one lens equals two lenses.

As for FF’s, Canon have them. No sweat. Again guessing through the crystal ball, I would think that big 5DIII rebates will come after the 1Dx is well out and 5DII is near phase out. Say another 6 months or so. Line’s complete then. With the progress we can expect to see with the APS-C technology, I bet they’ll probably continue with it in 7D’s, xxD, xxxD. Sort of Nikon on reverse gear. Yet, I can’t see anything wrong with that.

 

[nicku]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

There’s a price war looming. Canon is going to be hard pressed to adjust to whatever the competition push them to do. Good for us anyway.

Now, As far as the format goes, I don’t see just how Canon could manage to keep prices in check if they dilute the sensor size all over the range. Besides, correct me if I’m wrong, APS-H would not take the EF-S line. So, it looks like after the 70D with 22 MP, my take is that we’re going to see a 7DII with the same sensor and a bunch of badass features. Just nice for file size and don’t forget, just nice for video downsizing.

I would guess that the debate might go like this: for about 2000 bucks, would you prefer a crappy FF or a very capable APS-C ? I know, sometimes consumers just don’t know a damn thing about technology and just want the latest gizmo available. This might be a marketing factor. But. Larger sensors will remain more expensive for a while. This means you’ve got to strip down somewhere to keep price low. So, I don’t see what’s wrong with APS-C myself. Good for price, very good for wild life, very good for macro, very good for those who carry one FF and one APS-C as second camera: one lens equals two lenses.

As for FF’s, Canon have them. No sweat. Again guessing through the crystal ball, I would think that big 5DIII rebates will come after the 1Dx is well out and 5DII is near phase out. Say another 6 months or so. Line’s complete then. With the progress we can expect to see with the APS-C technology, I bet they’ll probably continue with it in 7D’s, xxD, xxxD. Sort of Nikon on reverse gear. Yet, I can’t see anything wrong with that.

Canon must response somehow to Nikon. Don't forget the marketing ( something new, something unique ... WOW)...

The APS-H sensor, mirror mechanism, mount, AF system is allready in use. Canon must only redesign the sensor MP and the camera body ( everything else is existing) From the cost point of view only the body and sensor must be redesigned.

This is my personal opinion... In the last year or so Nikon have taken the lead in DSLR innovation and technology and the gap is widening; don't mention the price.

After all we will see what will happen at Photokina in September.

 

[nicku]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Canon must response somehow to Nikon. Don't forget the marketing ( something new, something unique ... WOW)...

The APS-H sensor, mirror mechanism, mount, AF system is allready in use. Canon must only redesign the sensor MP and the camera body ( everything else is existing) From the cost point of view only the body and sensor must be redesigned.

There is no "wow" factor involved with the APS-H sensor, it is an old trick and its shine has worn off.

What wildlife/bird shooters want is greater pixel density (or smaller pixels), which is usually an anathema to everyone.

If Canon delivered a FF 46MP DSLR tomorrow, I can almost guarantee you that there'd be a loud chorus of "too many MP", "bad for low light", "bad for high-ISO" and "who needs so many MP" yet it would simply have the same pixel density as the 7D and thus a 300mm zoom on it would result in the same detail as a 300mm on a 7D.

There’s a price war looming. Canon is going to be hard pressed to adjust to whatever the competition push them to do. Good for us anyway.

Agreed.

You forget one essential aspect for wildlife/outdoor photography ... The extra reach.

 

[briansquibb]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Canon must response somehow to Nikon. Don't forget the marketing ( something new, something unique ... WOW)...

The APS-H sensor, mirror mechanism, mount, AF system is allready in use. Canon must only redesign the sensor MP and the camera body ( everything else is existing) From the cost point of view only the body and sensor must be redesigned.

There is no "wow" factor involved with the APS-H sensor, it is an old trick and its shine has worn off.

What wildlife/bird shooters want is greater pixel density (or smaller pixels), which is usually an anathema to everyone.

If Canon delivered a FF 46MP DSLR tomorrow, I can almost guarantee you that there'd be a loud chorus of "too many MP", "bad for low light", "bad for high-ISO" and "who needs so many MP" yet it would simply have the same pixel density as the 7D and thus a 300mm zoom on it would result in the same detail as a 300mm on a 7D.

There’s a price war looming. Canon is going to be hard pressed to adjust to whatever the competition push them to do. Good for us anyway.

Agreed.

You forget one essential aspect for wildlife/outdoor photography ... The extra reach.

No, you just don't understand what "extra reach" really means.

A 46MP Full Frame sensor has the same "reach" as a 18MP APS-C sensor.

What you see through the viewfinder deceives you into thinking that you are getting something that you are not.

The current advantage of APS-C sensors of full frame sensors is the increased pixel density on the sensor.

Or to put it another way, both the 20D and 30D have exactly the same "reach" as a 5D MarkII, 1Ds Mark II and for all practical purposes, the 5D Mark III.

Have you not noticed that pro sports togs use 1D4's. There must have been a reason!

APS-C does not give the same IQ as APS-H
APS-H has more reach than ff

APS-H is the compromise solution that has no major weakness

 

[Loswr]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

APS-H is the compromise solution that has no major weakness

Except the lack of availability of ultrawide lenses...

 

[samirachiko]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6



I would not call it 7D F. This might give way to the 6D as discussed earlier this year
[/quote]

Me too I think so. The economic FF will be the 6D... (maybe^^)

 

[nicku]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Have you not noticed that pro sports togs use 1D4's. There must have been a reason!

APS-C does not give the same IQ as APS-H
APS-H has more reach than ff

APS-H is the compromise solution that has no major weakness

I think you've left out two very important qualities: frame rate and auto-focus. Without those, the APS-H sensor would be meaningless.

A particular format of sensor has no IQ. There's nothing inherently better about APS-H than APS-C or FF.

IQ is a property of the design of the pixels and the sensor as a whole. If they used the same pixels from APS-C on a sensor that was APS-H then both sensors would have the same IQ. The only difference would be that the APS-H sensor would have more pixels - approximately 50% more. A 300mm lens on a 12MP APS-H has the same reach as a 8MP APS-C and 21MP Full Frame lens.

I understand exactly what you mean... and i agree with you. BUT there is a solid reason for all 1D series ( 1D, 1Dmk2, 1Dmk2N, 1Dmk3 1Dmk4) to be APS-H and NOT FF.

 

[TTMartin]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

I think it is more likely the 7D MkII remains a high frame rate APS sensor sports oriented camera.

I think the 70D will be a full frame upgrade to the 60D, with a polycarb body and an articulating screen.

I think this makes a lot more sense for Canon. With the 1D going full frame many sports pros still want the extra reach of an APS sensor (C or H) and the pro level 7D would fill that.

A full frame 70D modeled after the 60D makes sense. It would allow an entry level full frame camera, without putting to much pricing pressure on the 5D MkIII.

So I see Canon's line up as:
1DX
3D a high mega pixel full frame camera to match the D800
5D Mk III
7D Mk II high frame rate APS sensor camera
70D poly carb swivel LCD full frame camera (Full Frame Super Rebel)
T4i
T4 entry level APS-C camera
?? Mirrorless Camera designed to use STM lenses.

 

[nicku]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Have you not noticed that pro sports togs use 1D4's. There must have been a reason!

APS-C does not give the same IQ as APS-H
APS-H has more reach than ff

APS-H is the compromise solution that has no major weakness

I think you've left out two very important qualities: frame rate and auto-focus. Without those, the APS-H sensor would be meaningless.

A particular format of sensor has no IQ. There's nothing inherently better about APS-H than APS-C or FF.

IQ is a property of the design of the pixels and the sensor as a whole. If they used the same pixels from APS-C on a sensor that was APS-H then both sensors would have the same IQ. The only difference would be that the APS-H sensor would have more pixels - approximately 50% more. A 300mm lens on a 12MP APS-H has the same reach as a 8MP APS-C and 21MP Full Frame lens.

I understand exactly what you mean... and i agree with you. BUT there is a solid reason for all 1D series ( 1D, 1Dmk2, 1Dmk2N, 1Dmk3 1Dmk4) to be APS-H and NOT FF.

Yes, because at that time it was cheaper and more cost effective for canon to manufacture the APS-H sensors than the Full Frame ones. I don't know why people keep searching for "some other reason". There isn't one and that one is pretty powerful for big companies that want to make money.

Reasonable enough until 1D3 and 1D4. If the money was the main reason then was more easy to use an already existing sensor in Canon range ( 5D 12.7MP for 1D3 and 5D2 sensor for 1D4) ... not spending money developing new APS-H sensors. Starting with Digic 3 processors canon had the processing power to use those sensors at 10 fps..... so the money reason is not standing up from my point of view.

PS 1D series was not a $2000 camera.

 

[pedro]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

I think it is more likely the 7D MkII remains a high frame rate APS sensor sports oriented camera.

I think the 70D will be a full frame upgrade to the 60D, with a polycarb body and an articulating screen.

I think this makes a lot more sense for Canon. With the 1D going full frame many sports pros still want the extra reach of an APS sensor (C or H) and the pro level 7D would fill that.

A full frame 70D modeled after the 60D makes sense. It would allow an entry level full frame camera, without putting to much pricing pressure on the 5D MkIII.

So I see Canon's line up as:
1DX
3D a high mega pixel full frame camera to match the D800
5D Mk III
7D Mk II high frame rate APS sensor camera
70D poly carb swivel LCD full frame camera (Full Frame Super Rebel)
T4i
T4 entry level APS-C camera
?? Mirrorless Camera designed to use STM lenses.

I added my version to your lineup:
1DX
3D a high mega pixel full frame camera to match the D800
5D Mk III
6D (5DII with new sensor and tech, slightly improved AF)
7D Mk II high frame rate APS sensor camera
70D poly carb swivel LCD full frame camera (Full Frame Super Rebel)
T4i
T4 entry level APS-C camera
?? Mirrorless Camera designed to use STM lenses.

 

[TTMartin]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

I think it is more likely the 7D MkII remains a high frame rate APS sensor sports oriented camera.

I think the 70D will be a full frame upgrade to the 60D, with a polycarb body and an articulating screen.

I think this makes a lot more sense for Canon. With the 1D going full frame many sports pros still want the extra reach of an APS sensor (C or H) and the pro level 7D would fill that.

A full frame 70D modeled after the 60D makes sense. It would allow an entry level full frame camera, without putting to much pricing pressure on the 5D MkIII.

So I see Canon's line up as:
1DX
3D a high mega pixel full frame camera to match the D800
5D Mk III
7D Mk II high frame rate APS sensor camera
70D poly carb swivel LCD full frame camera (Full Frame Super Rebel)
T4i
T4 entry level APS-C camera
?? Mirrorless Camera designed to use STM lenses.

I added my version to your lineup:
1DX
3D a high mega pixel full frame camera to match the D800
5D Mk III
6D (5DII with new sensor and tech, slightly improved AF)
7D Mk II high frame rate APS sensor camera
70D poly carb swivel LCD full frame camera (Full Frame Super Rebel)
T4i
T4 entry level APS-C camera
?? Mirrorless Camera designed to use STM lenses.

From a marketing perspective, a full frame 70D modeled after the 60D makes sense. It would allow an entry level full frame camera, to answer the Nikon D600 without putting to much pricing pressure on the 5D MkIII or the 7D MkII. It could be priced around the 7D without hurting its sales. Just like today most sport shooters would still buy a 1D MkIV over a 5D MkIII, they would by the 7D Mk II over the 70D entry level full frame.

Also an entry level full frame camera is still and entry level camera, not a pro camera, not marketed to pros, it doesn't need pro numbering or a pro body. A poly carb Super Rebel body like the 60D allows lower cost of production to keep the price low. It would work as a back up body for pro full frame shooters, or as an entry level full frame camera for those that want to step up.

The 6D you describe would have too much presure from used 5D MkIIs to make sense. Improve its features to much over the 5D MkII and now you compete with the 5D MkIII. Wrap it in a poly carb body and you don't hurt your 5D Mk III sales, even if its features are better than the 5D MkII.

Lots of reasons why a Full Frame Polycarb 70D makes sense. And it really doesn't go that much in the face of the rumor statements.