*UPDATED* Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Specifications & Image

[candc]

Re: *UPDATED* Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Specifications & Image

this is looking to be an excellent all purpose camera (especially if it has a healthy buffer capacity). i am going to get one but this is the last dslr i will ever buy. i really mean it this time.

 

[Don Haines]

Re: New Feature? /Re: *UPDATED* Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Specifications & Image

So, any more on the "new feature" for the 5DmkIV that has never appeared before in a DSLR?

A pop-up DUAL flash?

 

[Loswr]

Re: *UPDATED* Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Specifications & Image

Thanks for your thoughts Wocka, so although a frame grab from a 1dx2 would have less data in it (I'm assuming based on sensor Mp's) the overall IQ would still be better because of a better implementation of video in the first place?

The other consideration is that the shutter speed for video is 2x the video frame rate. If you're shooting 4K @ 30 fps, your shutter speed is 1/60 s. If that's not enough to stop subject motion, you'll get a blurry subject...and I find that makes for pretty poor IQ. You can trade frame grab resolution for shutter speed, to a point (e.g. 1080/60fps gets you 1/125 s).

 

[scyrene]

Re: *UPDATED* Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Specifications & Image

this forum seems to consist of the biggest bunch of maladjusted egos that ever walked the earth.

You can't spend much time on the internet then. People here are pretty polite and nice compared to a lot of places. And actually, a lot of interesting and informative content is shared, in between the bickering.

 

[Don Haines]

Re: *UPDATED* Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Specifications & Image

Thanks for your thoughts Wocka, so although a frame grab from a 1dx2 would have less data in it (I'm assuming based on sensor Mp's) the overall IQ would still be better because of a better implementation of video in the first place?

The other consideration is that the shutter speed for video is 2x the video frame rate. If you're shooting 4K @ 30 fps, your shutter speed is 1/60 s. If that's not enough to stop subject motion, you'll get a blurry subject...and I find that makes for pretty poor IQ. You can trade frame grab resolution for shutter speed, to a point.

Yes.

Typically, when you shoot video you want as slow of a shutter speed as you can get away with. Although the individual images may be blurred, when you watch them, the brain interprets the blur as smooth motion far better than it interprets sharp images. If you shoot sharp images with high shutter speed, the brain will "see" the motion as jagged.

This is a fundamental flaw with the idea of just shooting video and extracting still frames from it

 

[PureClassA]

Re: *UPDATED* Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Specifications & Image

Totally agree on the unloading time. Takes me about an hour to dump a full 128GB CF card (and a very fast one) onto my 480GB SSD with USB 3 transfer all the way. And I have about 75 mins between recitals to unload that card. It's tight. From that perspective, I can understand why even not needed CFast on a 5D4, it would be damn helpful. I wasn't using CFast on the DX2 during recitals either. Didn't own one. But having that extra speed to offload would have made me feel a whole lot safer LOL

...
Same time I can appreciate why a 1DX2 in your situation isn't ideal. It's a comparably noisy sucker, especially for weddings. I actually hope the new 5D4 shutter will have the same shutter as the 5DSR. If you haven't shot with that one, it's like shooting stealth with a silencer on the lens. That all motor shutter is really slick.

Given that the frame rate is 3 fps for silent shutter, it's apparent that lots of fps in the 5 series isn't so important for a good number of people.

For those that think 30MP in the 5D4 is too many MP, maybe the 6D2 will be more appropriate...

The 5DSR is capable of 5fps, limited by the high data rate it has to sling. I've never actually tried the silent shutter mode on it. Even at 5fps, that shutter is a whisper

This is why I have a big thing about Cfast and UHS-ii - At the tail end of data transfer waiting for that buffer to empty is a big thing shooting weddings. The rumored 7fps... great...it just means the buffer will fill up quicker.

So when theres the first kiss and I want to spray that with as many frames as possible or the confetti walk is taking place, or during the couple photos when I want the moments between moments I don't want to be held back on either accessing the frames taken or waiting for a buffer to empty.

With the 5Dsr I get 14-16 shots in a burst at 5fps. That's a measly three second burst. On a 5D3 you get the same I think but at 6fps. So again, a three second burst. That's NOTHING. Worst still when it takes three seconds more to empty the buffer.

Doesn't sound like much but in practise it's a big thing. If the buffer output and write speed is high enough you 'should' be able to shoot continuously.

Furthermore, when a wedding takes up about 100-200gb I want to be able to empty those cards as fast as possible ready to copy the images to backup so I can go to bed and shoot another wedding the next day.

If you shoot 50 weddings a year the time adds up. I think it takes about 50 minutes to unload my cards (Sandisk 160mb/s cards). Over a year that's two days used up with the simple process of emptying cards.

It's an issue I have with cameras these days. They're all pretty freaking superb but the devil is in the detail, some things they could of added to the 5Dsr like the 1DX jump to a mode feature (which they added but crippled) would of made my 5DSr much more useful. No Cfast / UHS-ii on the 5D4? might not buy it unless the sensor is super whack as I love not having an AA filter.

 

[zim]

Re: *UPDATED* Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Specifications & Image

Thanks for your thoughts Wocka, so although a frame grab from a 1dx2 would have less data in it (I'm assuming based on sensor Mp's) the overall IQ would still be better because of a better implementation of video in the first place?

The other consideration is that the shutter speed for video is 2x the video frame rate. If you're shooting 4K @ 30 fps, your shutter speed is 1/60 s. If that's not enough to stop subject motion, you'll get a blurry subject...and I find that makes for pretty poor IQ. You can trade frame grab resolution for shutter speed, to a point (e.g. 1080/60fps gets you 1/125 s).

Ah, I see and therefore not only subject motion but also 1/60 is below my acceptable min speed for handholding without flash! (sad but true) I don't think I should get too interested in this idea, sounds like I'd be disappointed, was only out of curiosity so no big deal

Thanks both for the info!
Edit: and Don

 

[PureClassA]

Re: *UPDATED* Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Specifications & Image

Im glad they gave us the option of both. I would out of choice NOT bought the 5DSr, the resolution difference is almost inperceivable. However moire / aliasing is a bugger to get rid of I have bitter experiance of it.

What little instance I've had with it has been easily remedied for me in LR with the Moire Tool, although I'm sure there are some situations more difficult than others

 

[StudentOfLight]

Re: *UPDATED* Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Specifications & Image

Thanks for your thoughts Wocka, so although a frame grab from a 1dx2 would have less data in it (I'm assuming based on sensor Mp's) the overall IQ would still be better because of a better implementation of video in the first place?

The other consideration is that the shutter speed for video is 2x the video frame rate. If you're shooting 4K @ 30 fps, your shutter speed is 1/60 s. If that's not enough to stop subject motion, you'll get a blurry subject...and I find that makes for pretty poor IQ. You can trade frame grab resolution for shutter speed, to a point.

Yes.

Typically, when you shoot video you want as slow of a shutter speed as you can get away with. Although the individual images may be blurred, when you watch them, the brain interprets the blur as smooth motion far better than it interprets sharp images. If you shoot sharp images with high shutter speed, the brain will "see" the motion as jagged.

This is a fundamental flaw with the idea of just shooting video and extracting still frames from it

Times have changed. Footage is not always captured for video use. I agree you can't necessarily do two things at once. (i.e. shoot footage for video and for pulling stills)

When shooting footage, there is no imposed time value limitation other than it being equal or faster than the fps.

If your intention is to shoot smooth video then you follow the 180 degree shutter rule.

If your intention is to grab stills from video footage then you should shoot with the appropriate time value for those stills whether that is bare minimum to freeze action or the longest duration (equal to fps) for blurred backgrounds when panning.

 

[zim]

Re: *UPDATED* Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Specifications & Image

...
Typically, when you shoot video you want as slow of a shutter speed as you can get away with. Although the individual images may be blurred, when you watch them, the brain interprets the blur as smooth motion far better than it interprets sharp images. If you shoot sharp images with high shutter speed, the brain will "see" the motion as jagged.

This is a fundamental flaw with the idea of just shooting video and extracting still frames from it

If you are using video to get stills (and not video), why not shoot 4k@30fps with 1/500?

Ok, that's interesting, quick google and... https://vimeo.com/blog/post/frame-rate-vs-shutter-speed-setting-the-record-str

This is stuff I know nothing about and I don't want to hijack the thread. I need to understand how that affects exposure (or how you work out exposure!) so I'm away to experiment with what I've got, thanks all!

 

[PureClassA]

Re: *UPDATED* Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Specifications & Image

4:2:2 References the richness of the data/colorspace it's encoding. 4:4:4 is the highest and is found on high end cinema dedicated cameras. 4:2:2 is still excellent.

Frame grabbing from motion capture can be done one of two ways. As Neuro pointed out, If you're shooting a regular old 24fps or 30fps for video, your shutter speed should be double the frame rate in order to get smooth motion blur from one shot to next. On the other hand, this isn't always ideal to making frame grabs as 1/50 and 1/60 sec isn't enough to stop motion. Even at 120fps in 1080p, you still can only shoot at 1/250 sec and even that isn't really high enough. HOWEVER. If you want to shoot in HD or 4K at 24, 30, 100, 120 fps (whatever) and you DONT CARE about having usable video (in other words, all you're looking to do is grab a high frame rate of usable STILLS from it) you can set your shutter speed to whatever you want like 1/500th or 1/1000 or even higher. When you play the video back, it's going to look VERY choppy because your high shutter speed has eliminated the motion blur necessary to making smooth video, but you'll have a great succession of sharp stills. Make sense?

Now as far as data is concerned. 4k is 4k is 4k no matter what camera. it's 8.8MP. Period. Same thing with HD capture. it's 2.2MP. Period. Now different cameras may encode that video differently which would then yeild different file sizes at the end, but the resolution of capture and yield should be identical.

A couple of questions about the rumoured 4K video specs assuming they are correct...

Firstly I know absolutely nothing about video, codecs, 4:4:2 (wait that's football)... etc.

I am however very interested, from an amateur perspective, playing with stills from 4K video clips, effectively super fast fps.

So firstly, Am I correct to say you cannot pull a cr2 image from video i.e. it does not shoot raw video? and neither does the 1Dx2 ? even for just a few seconds (out the box ignoring possible future ML on 5D4)

Secondly, on specs alone should the 5D4 produce same/better/worse image quality frame grab as the 1Dx2 ?

Third, would the 5D4 image size be larger than the 1Dx2's ? what size would it be, does it use all of the sensor?

I think I might have snuck a couple of extra questions in there!

Thanks for any input

 

[PureClassA]

Re: *UPDATED* Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Specifications & Image

If you are using video to get stills (and not video), why not shoot 4k@30fps with 1/500?

Precisely. If you dont care about having a smooth motion video, you can up your shutter speed as high as you want and have great, tack sharp 8.8MP frame grabs. I would imagine this is perfect for pro sports shooters who dont necessarily need a 20MP image, although the process to cull through video to find and extract the precise screen grab takes longer than just blasting away at 14fps and nailing the shot within that quick burst

 

[zim]

Re: *UPDATED* Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Specifications & Image

4:2:2 References the richness of the data/colorspace it's encoding. 4:4:4 is the highest and is found on high end cinema dedicated cameras. 4:2:2 is still excellent.

Frame grabbing from motion capture can be done one of two ways. As Neuro pointed out, If you're shooting a regular old 24fps or 30fps for video, your shutter speed should be double the frame rate in order to get smooth motion blur from one shot to next. On the other hand, this isn't always ideal to making frame grabs as 1/50 and 1/60 sec isn't enough to stop motion. Even at 120fps in 1080p, you still can only shoot at 1/250 sec and even that isn't really high enough. HOWEVER. If you want to shoot in HD or 4K at 24, 30, 100, 120 fps (whatever) and you DONT CARE about having usable video (in other words, all you're looking to do is grab a high frame rate of usable STILLS from it) you can set your shutter speed to whatever you want like 1/500th or 1/1000 or even higher. When you play the video back, it's going to look VERY choppy because your high shutter speed has eliminated the motion blur necessary to making smooth video, but you'll have a great succession of sharp stills. Make sense?

Now as far as data is concerned. 4k is 4k is 4k no matter what camera. it's 8.8MP. Period. Same thing with HD capture. it's 2.2MP. Period. Now different cameras may encode that video differently which would then yeild different file sizes at the end, but the resolution of capture and yield should be identical.

Totally makes sense, thanks, hope it's a good day tomorrow so I can try this out........ where's the damn cat when you need him ;D

 

[Don Haines]

Re: *UPDATED* Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Specifications & Image

...
Typically, when you shoot video you want as slow of a shutter speed as you can get away with. Although the individual images may be blurred, when you watch them, the brain interprets the blur as smooth motion far better than it interprets sharp images. If you shoot sharp images with high shutter speed, the brain will "see" the motion as jagged.

This is a fundamental flaw with the idea of just shooting video and extracting still frames from it

Ok, that's interesting, quick google and... https://vimeo.com/blog/post/frame-rate-vs-shutter-speed-setting-the-record-str

This is stuff I know nothing about and I don't want to hijack the thread. I need to understand how that affects exposure (or how you work out exposure!) so I'm away to experiment with what I've got, thanks all!

Keep in mind, that's just about smoothness..... Video is (typically) far more compressed than a still jpg and unfortunately, the greater the compression, the greater the information loss. Look at what you get from a 30Mp still image (expected 5D4 size) and a video frame..... for starters, the video frame has only a fifteenth (2K) or a quarter (4K) of the number of pixels, and that's a lot of lost info! Plus, if you shoot RAW you have 14 bits of colour info to work with, as opposed to 8 bits on the video frame, and that's a lot more info lost....... and this is without even touching on all those other reasons to shoot RAW....

A still gets you many times the image resolution and gets you 14 bit uncompressed data as opposed to the heavily compressed 8 bit data of the video frame. BIG! difference.......

 

[scyrene]

Re: *UPDATED* Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Specifications & Image

If these specs are correct, then I will not purchase a Mark IV. And I've been waiting for so long. I wanted a Mark III years ago, but rumors said that the Mark IV was so close to be released, so I waited, and waited. For more than two years.

This is not a good way of deciding what to buy, or when. Rumours are just that - they cannot be relied upon.

And many tests I've seen say that [the 1DX Mark II is] not as good a camera as its predecessors, which is a bit disheartening.

According to whom, and in what ways?

 

[PureClassA]

Re: *UPDATED* Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Specifications & Image

Keep in mind, that's just about smoothness..... Video is (typically) far more compressed than a still jpg and unfortunately, the greater the compression, the greater the information loss. Look at what you get from a 30Mp still image (expected 5D4 size) and a video frame..... for starters, the video frame has only a fifteenth (2K) or a quarter (4K) of the number of pixels, and that's a lot of lost info! Plus, if you shoot RAW you have 14 bits of colour info to work with, as opposed to 8 bits on the video frame, and that's a lot more info lost....... and this is without even touching on all those other reasons to shoot RAW....

A still gets you many times the image resolution and gets you 14 bit uncompressed data as opposed to the heavily compressed 8 bit data of the video frame. BIG! difference.......

Sometimes. With HD on the DX2, almost the whole sensor is used and the pixels are binned down to HD, so yes you get loss there. On 4k however, if you look at the sensor area it uses for capture, it's actually a heavy crop. There's less compression (if any, the DX2 may actually be reading out pixel for pixel in 4k which means no binning at all, but I'm not entirely sure) So your screen grabs from that sort of 4k would look as sharp as a still shot croped into a 8.8MP area in the center. Granted this doesn't account for variance between shooting the still in RAW vs the video in MJPG, but ya get where I'm going

 

[K]

Re: *UPDATED* Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Specifications & Image

By moving into the 30MP realm, Canon is obviously reacting to the success of the D810. Nikon proved there is a market for a high megapixel do-all camera. That 22-24mp doesn't necessarily own that category anymore. With on-chip ADC and other advancements, higher megapixels doesn't translate as much to a penalty in ISO performance or DR hits. The advantage of lower megapixels for ISO and DR is proportionately less with the newer tech.

I think these specs will be very successful for stills shooters. 30MP gives tons of resolution (after all, 22-24 is a lot), so that there's more cropping ability and/or it gives the camera more well rounded capability for landscape, macro, or other higher resolution applications. It does all that without going overboard into the 36-50MP range where data files become massive and frame rates plummet. Remember, do-all camera...is the goal here.

The biggest sacrifice feature the D810 had was FPS. To get those 36MP, meant dealing with 5fps. That is a real world penalty for a do-all camera. It hurts it badly for action shooting, weddings etcetera. Even 1fps faster at 6fps makes a difference.


On the other hand, 7fps is truly a step up and puts a camera in another category compared to the 5-6fps cameras. For anyone that's used at 70D or 80D, it is quite a step up. No, it's not a 10fps+ serious action camera, but it is a big step up and has real-world benefits. I view it as being in a new category almost.


With 30MP and 7fps, this is Canon's way of having our cake and eating it. While at the same time, giving high resolution and keeping data under control. High res and fast FPS? What is not to like???

Sure, 8fps would have been great. It would have been monstrous actually and would have probably killed a lot of sales of other cameras including Canon's own lines. 8fps is the entry level of "good enough" for a large segment of those who need action photos. Canon cleverly placed this camera under that threshold, despite the fact that it can handle the data at 8fps based on the rumored specs.

 

[PureClassA]

Re: *UPDATED* Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Specifications & Image

And many tests I've seen say that [the 1DX Mark II is] not as good a camera as its predecessors, which is a bit disheartening.

According to whom, and in what ways?

Only thing I've seen tested that performed "lesser" than the 1DX was color saturation. DX2 wasn't quite as rich, but it was very close. If know of something else E, let's hear it, because I've used both and DX2 is superior in every measure to me.

 

[scyrene]

Re: *UPDATED* Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Specifications & Image

...
Typically, when you shoot video you want as slow of a shutter speed as you can get away with. Although the individual images may be blurred, when you watch them, the brain interprets the blur as smooth motion far better than it interprets sharp images. If you shoot sharp images with high shutter speed, the brain will "see" the motion as jagged.

This is a fundamental flaw with the idea of just shooting video and extracting still frames from it

Ok, that's interesting, quick google and... https://vimeo.com/blog/post/frame-rate-vs-shutter-speed-setting-the-record-str

This is stuff I know nothing about and I don't want to hijack the thread. I need to understand how that affects exposure (or how you work out exposure!) so I'm away to experiment with what I've got, thanks all!

Keep in mind, that's just about smoothness..... Video is (typically) far more compressed than a still jpg and unfortunately, the greater the compression, the greater the information loss. Look at what you get from a 30Mp still image (expected 5D4 size) and a video frame..... for starters, the video frame has only a fifteenth (2K) or a quarter (4K) of the number of pixels, and that's a lot of lost info! Plus, if you shoot RAW you have 14 bits of colour info to work with, as opposed to 8 bits on the video frame, and that's a lot more info lost....... and this is without even touching on all those other reasons to shoot RAW....

A still gets you many times the image resolution and gets you 14 bit uncompressed data as opposed to the heavily compressed 8 bit data of the video frame. BIG! difference.......

Not to mention one major difference - you can't shoot video whilst looking through the optical viewfinder, which many of us find useful when tracking moving subjects. I'm not against frame grabs, but their usefulness has been overhyped.

 

[Maiaibing]

Re: *UPDATED* Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Specifications & Image

On the other hand, 7fps is truly a step up and puts a camera in another category compared to the 5-6fps cameras.

Difference between 5 fps and 7 fps is quite small in real shooting terms (as in usable shots captured).

Please explain the shooting situations where it would make any real difference since you think it puts the camera in another "category".

I'm not saying it makes no difference at all and for some it may be important. But that will be a small margin of most action shooting (and irrelevant for non-action shooting).

You need to go to 7DII and 1DXII territory from 5 fps to get any significant boost in output results from added fps.