A Surprise Cinema EOS Announcement for Photokina? [CR1]

[peederj]

I don't see any reason why Canon wouldn't want to go ahead and announce whatever they've got for Cinema at Photokina, before people receive their FS7's.

Canon definitely are not going to want to 4K enable the existing base of C100/C300s. They are going to want to sell you a new camera. This is OK with me.

Canon aren't going to 4K enable the 5D4 either I think. If you're going to shoot 4K video today, you're going to want the facilities of a purpose-built camera rather than a hybrid hack. And 4K is so unforgiving on talent, hair/makeup/wardrobe, set and lighting that anyone shooting it is going to have enough budget for a FS7-style cam. It will overcomplicate the DSLR to be good at 4K video too I think...you probably don't actually want such a 4K DSLR, you just want an FS7 for $3500 and I don't blame you.

The theory is the FS7 sensor is the same as the FS700 sensor, which loses color rapidly at high ISO. There is only 18dB of gain available over a base ISO of 2000, so that yields ISO 12000 if my math is right. Nowhere near the C100's/A7s's ISO100K or whatever it is. Realtime NR is how they do that btw.

I think Canon has to do something and NAB may be too late. There is only one 4K transition in history and this is it right now. Buying decisions are being made and Sony has a camera that, coupled with adapters like the Speedbooster, checks just about every box. I have enjoyed my C100/Ninja rig since the day it first shipped but I wouldn't buy it now most certainly, even now over $2000/20% discounted from when I got it. It still has a few advantages over the FS7 but certainly not enough to sway purchase. I even think the FS7 shoulder ergonomics are much better, the EVF and handle arm are included for the $8K.

 

[Etienne]

I don't see any reason why Canon wouldn't want to go ahead and announce whatever they've got for Cinema at Photokina, before people receive their FS7's.

Canon definitely are not going to want to 4K enable the existing base of C100/C300s. They are going to want to sell you a new camera. This is OK with me.

Canon aren't going to 4K enable the 5D4 either I think. If you're going to shoot 4K video today, you're going to want the facilities of a purpose-built camera rather than a hybrid hack. And 4K is so unforgiving on talent, hair/makeup/wardrobe, set and lighting that anyone shooting it is going to have enough budget for a FS7-style cam. It will overcomplicate the DSLR to be good at 4K video too I think...you probably don't actually want such a 4K DSLR, you just want an FS7 for $3500 and I don't blame you.

The theory is the FS7 sensor is the same as the FS700 sensor, which loses color rapidly at high ISO. There is only 18dB of gain available over a base ISO of 2000, so that yields ISO 12000 if my math is right. Nowhere near the C100's/A7s's ISO100K or whatever it is. Realtime NR is how they do that btw.

I think Canon has to do something and NAB may be too late. There is only one 4K transition in history and this is it right now. Buying decisions are being made and Sony has a camera that, coupled with adapters like the Speedbooster, checks just about every box. I have enjoyed my C100/Ninja rig since the day it first shipped but I wouldn't buy it now most certainly, even now over $2000/20% discounted from when I got it. It still has a few advantages over the FS7 but certainly not enough to sway purchase. I even think the FS7 shoulder ergonomics are much better, the EVF and handle arm are included for the $8K.

Y... my C100 plans are shelved.
If the FS7 can shoot clean at equivalent ISO6400 then that's good enough for me. If it's clean at 10,000 .. awesome.
BTW ... the 28-135 f/4 OSS power zoom lens ($2500) is included at $8000 too!
It's not a big camera either: about 8" long and 7" high (without the handle) judging from the size relative to the lens

 

[Policar]

I don't see any reason why Canon wouldn't want to go ahead and announce whatever they've got for Cinema at Photokina, before people receive their FS7's.

Canon definitely are not going to want to 4K enable the existing base of C100/C300s. They are going to want to sell you a new camera. This is OK with me.

Canon aren't going to 4K enable the 5D4 either I think. If you're going to shoot 4K video today, you're going to want the facilities of a purpose-built camera rather than a hybrid hack. And 4K is so unforgiving on talent, hair/makeup/wardrobe, set and lighting that anyone shooting it is going to have enough budget for a FS7-style cam. It will overcomplicate the DSLR to be good at 4K video too I think...you probably don't actually want such a 4K DSLR, you just want an FS7 for $3500 and I don't blame you.

The theory is the FS7 sensor is the same as the FS700 sensor, which loses color rapidly at high ISO. There is only 18dB of gain available over a base ISO of 2000, so that yields ISO 12000 if my math is right. Nowhere near the C100's/A7s's ISO100K or whatever it is. Realtime NR is how they do that btw.

I think Canon has to do something and NAB may be too late. There is only one 4K transition in history and this is it right now. Buying decisions are being made and Sony has a camera that, coupled with adapters like the Speedbooster, checks just about every box. I have enjoyed my C100/Ninja rig since the day it first shipped but I wouldn't buy it now most certainly, even now over $2000/20% discounted from when I got it. It still has a few advantages over the FS7 but certainly not enough to sway purchase. I even think the FS7 shoulder ergonomics are much better, the EVF and handle arm are included for the $8K.

Y... my C100 plans are shelved.
If the FS7 can shoot clean at equivalent ISO6400 then that's good enough for me. If it's clean at 10,000 .. awesome.
BTW ... the 28-135 f/4 OSS power zoom lens ($2500) is included at $8000 too!
It's not a big camera either: about 8" long and 7" high (without the handle) judging from the size relative to the lens

Wow. I strongly disliked my time with the F5 and even I would consider this thing strongly. Looks amazing. But I have no clients requesting 4k and don't like using it on personal projects. Still. Wow.

 

[rame5hra0]

I am told that the surprise announcement has nothing to with new hardware or development announcement. A patent sharing agreement with other cine-camera manufacturers like Red, Alexa, Arri etc like they had it with Microsoft. Canon realizes that it is lagging far behind in sensor development. Canon is apparently interested in latest RED sensor which outscored Sony at DXO. There is speculation that Canon may slowly concentrate on only lenses.

 

[Policar]

I am told that the surprise announcement has nothing to with new hardware or development announcement. A patent sharing agreement with other cine-camera manufacturers like Red, Alexa, Arri etc like they had it with Microsoft. Canon realizes that it is lagging far behind in sensor development. Canon is apparently interested in latest RED sensor which outscored Sony at DXO. There is speculation that Canon may slowly concentrate on only lenses.

What's your source? The Alexa sensor is Sony so if so, this is a huge deal! I never liked Red or Sony's color rendering compared with Canon, but if Canon shares color science with Arri and Red we are all in for a lot of magic. But why would Canon go out of its way to share patents if it plans to focus only on lens production... that's what confuses me. Why would the best-selling dSLR company and most profitable by far drop its camera division?

Thanks for the heads up! Leaks like this are what keep the internet running. I would be devastated if this were true as I have a C-series body and 5D Mark III... and many only half as much invested in lenses.

Might have to start selling. Not sure where to turn for stills, though, if Canon drops body production. Nothing else has competent autofocus with EF-mount.

 

[Peer]

I received a vague hint that Canon could be making a surprise Cinema EOS announcement for Photokina.

Let me take a wild guess here -- it's a 10-bit 1dc2.

-- peer

 

[Niki]

I am told that the surprise announcement has nothing to with new hardware or development announcement. A patent sharing agreement with other cine-camera manufacturers like Red, Alexa, Arri etc like they had it with Microsoft. Canon realizes that it is lagging far behind in sensor development. Canon is apparently interested in latest RED sensor which outscored Sony at DXO. There is speculation that Canon may slowly concentrate on only lenses.

What's your source? The Alexa sensor is Sony so if so, this is a huge deal! I never liked Red or Sony's color rendering compared with Canon, but if Canon shares color science with Arri and Red we are all in for a lot of magic. But why would Canon go out of its way to share patents if it plans to focus only on lens production... that's what confuses me. Why would the best-selling dSLR company and most profitable by far drop its camera division?

Thanks for the heads up! Leaks like this are what keep the internet running. I would be devastated if this were true as I have a C-series body and 5D Mark III... and many only half as much invested in lenses.

Might have to start selling. Not sure where to turn for stills, though, if Canon drops body production. Nothing else has competent autofocus with EF-mount.

are you sure the alexa has a sony sensor??

 

[Ebrahim Saadawi]

[/quote]

are you sure the alexa has a sony sensor??
[/quote]

It doesn't. It's an Arri sensor. Anyway I strongly believe there aren't going to be any Canon cinema camera announcements in Photokina, they would have done it in IBC which is happening right now anyway!

 

[mkabi]

I am told that the surprise announcement has nothing to with new hardware or development announcement. A patent sharing agreement with other cine-camera manufacturers like Red, Alexa, Arri etc like they had it with Microsoft. Canon realizes that it is lagging far behind in sensor development. Canon is apparently interested in latest RED sensor which outscored Sony at DXO. There is speculation that Canon may slowly concentrate on only lenses.

What's your source? The Alexa sensor is Sony so if so, this is a huge deal! I never liked Red or Sony's color rendering compared with Canon, but if Canon shares color science with Arri and Red we are all in for a lot of magic. But why would Canon go out of its way to share patents if it plans to focus only on lens production... that's what confuses me. Why would the best-selling dSLR company and most profitable by far drop its camera division?

Thanks for the heads up! Leaks like this are what keep the internet running. I would be devastated if this were true as I have a C-series body and 5D Mark III... and many only half as much invested in lenses.

Might have to start selling. Not sure where to turn for stills, though, if Canon drops body production. Nothing else has competent autofocus with EF-mount.

Relax... I'm sure what he/she meant was they are not going to be making anymore cine-bodies, which is a bummer too (at least for me) and concentrating on Cine-lenses... on the cinema side of things. Its still a bummer...

7DC! 7DC! 7DC!

 

[peederj]

BTW ... the 28-135 f/4 OSS power zoom lens ($2500) is included at $8000 too!

No it isn't...there is a package deal but it costs more than $8K with the lens.

The V-mount battery/output module that offers timecode and RAW output is only about $2K and I think it's a good design to have all that removable so you can get a small C100-size camera on a jib or gimbal. 4K is nice for stabilization and repo as mentioned. Everything RTS with the 28-135 pz and the battery/output module will run something like $12.5K street...but remember, you won't need any rigging or any extras other than battery and memory at that price. People in this forum would also get Speedbooster Ultra's for their EF glass.

And no, most hilariously, Canon are NOT going to be abandoning the Cinema camera space so quickly. The C-series have been incredibly successful. Trust me, think back to the price of the F35 and consider whether Sony really wanted to sell this FS7 at $8K. Canon is forcing them to undercut to this degree because the C-series is so popular. I have never had the least trouble with the C100 and I don't plan on selling it just yet. But I'm also unable to recommend it with the FS7 available at that price.

 

[Etienne]

BTW ... the 28-135 f/4 OSS power zoom lens ($2500) is included at $8000 too!

No it isn't...there is a package deal but it costs more than $8K with the lens.

The V-mount battery/output module that offers timecode and RAW output is only about $2K and I think it's a good design to have all that removable so you can get a small C100-size camera on a jib or gimbal. 4K is nice for stabilization and repo as mentioned. Everything RTS with the 28-135 pz and the battery/output module will run something like $12.5K street...but remember, you won't need any rigging or any extras other than battery and memory at that price. People in this forum would also get Speedbooster Ultra's for their EF glass.

And no, most hilariously, Canon are NOT going to be abandoning the Cinema camera space so quickly. The C-series have been incredibly successful. Trust me, think back to the price of the F35 and consider whether Sony really wanted to sell this FS7 at $8K. Canon is forcing them to undercut to this degree because the C-series is so popular. I have never had the least trouble with the C100 and I don't plan on selling it just yet. But I'm also unable to recommend it with the FS7 available at that price.

Y ... the rumor of lens in at 8K is off ... here's a screen cap from B&H . There's no pics at B&H but Mfr # is PXW-FS7, and available Nov 15. I suspect the $9999 includes the lens.
I don't believe for second that Canon is going to stop making Cinema bodies either.

 

[peederj]

Best early review of the FS7 prototype. 1700 lph with that little aliasing/moire is really amazing at this price point. (And I wonder if the external RAW recording can do even better...)

http://www.dvinfo.net/article/acquisition/sonyxdcam/first-look-sony-pxw-fs7-l-s-s-shoulder-mount-camcorder-part-1.html

Canon it's getting laaaaaate....

 

[arthur]

Canon must respect Their customers .. We invest in canon lenses and did not stop supporting 5d cameras .. We have put our trust on them To provide the best cinematic camera in best price ..

But what did they do?

They gave us a Overpriced cameras lag behind the accelerating technology ..

and Opened the way for other companies to provide much better cameras at a reasonable price ..!!


So What is the philosophy behind it canon ?!! .... Shame on you

 

[apacheebest]

Hello Friends !

i see 3 great White Lens and 4 Black Lens from Canon at Photokina .

Any idea what is the rest :-\

Check yourself ...