What’s next from Canon?

Kev

Oct 11, 2019
1
0
Will the 80mp R be better at handling noise? With the newer sensor. I heard the 5Ds was terrible with noise
 

privatebydesign

Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Jan 29, 2011
8,127
1,467
119
Beautiful
Thanks sanj, I'm trying to post more illustrative images at the moment because I get the feeling to many posts are now not based in any kind of practical reality. I want to show actual examples of any 'issues' or 'limitations' I personally have with the equipment I chose to buy.

As an example, I recently made a simple request of two very regular posters who highly recommend a particular piece of software to post a simple before and after example of the results they are getting and are so impressed with. Neither have.

Of course for my big prints I would have been far better served with a 5DS/r but personally I rely on the durability and reliability of the 1 series bodies, I travel a lot and have found a single 1 series to be reliable enough to not need to carry a 'backup' most of the time, I'm also very used to the various 1 series niceties like AF point linked spot metering, internal viewfinder blind, day long battery life etc.
 
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Act444

EOS 6D MK II
May 4, 2011
1,049
129
Well, once you do anything where going closer is no option, the alternatives to getting a larger image of your subject is using higher focal length ($$$) or cropping. The former is not really an option for many people, be it because of the associated price or weight. And the latter one only becomes a decent option at high resolutions.

A higher resolution can be converted to a lower one to save files and the image can even be read in crop mode for greater FPS. The other way around, you have to go through some annoying processes to go beyond the limit of your sensor resolution. So you're essentially stuck.

I personally find the thought of going to FF with a camera that let's me keep all the strengths of using a crop DSLR (Pixel density, compatible with EF-S, moderate weight due to mirrorless) very appealing.
Fair enough, that makes sense. I was in that boat for a while (wanting reach of crop sensor) and then decided that the 5D4 at 30MP was close/good enough to replace a 7D2 for my action pics. I found that I actually didn’t miss the reach as much as I thought I would.
 

Act444

EOS 6D MK II
May 4, 2011
1,049
129
Could the gorgeous IQ have something to do with all the mp in the 5DSR sensor, along with the cancelling of the AA filter?
I was referring specifically to color science, which I suspect has little or nothing to do with the sensor’s resolution or lack of AA filter. As much as Canon’s older generation of sensors gets lambasted on this forum, I prefer their OOC color output to the current gen. Richer and more vibrant colors (especially reds and yellows) and it’s the combination of all three features above that IMO make that camera so great at what I use it for.
 

scyrene

EOS 5D MK IV
Dec 4, 2013
2,605
557
UK
www.flickr.com
Hi res rig is overkill for run and gun assignments if expected output is either screen or a small prints.
5DS/R is a specialist camera.
The second statement doesn't follow from the first. "It isn't ideal for one/every specific use case" ≠ "it's a specialist device". I'm another who has used the 5Ds for general purposes - it's not much different from the 5D3 in most regards. It certainly requires more care to get pixel-level sharpness than lower res bodies, but I don't think that makes it a specialist camera, however often some people repeat that opinion (and either way, these are opinions).
 

privatebydesign

Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Jan 29, 2011
8,127
1,467
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My Craftsman hand tools carry a no questions asked lifetime warranty. Snap-on ask's questions. ;)
Are you sure about that now the Craftsman brand name has been sold to Stanley Black and Decker and they are almost exclusively made in China? Sears have been deliberately run into the ground as an asset stripping operation and Stanley Black and Decker will have no commitment to any holding company that was owned by Sears in a few years time. I fear for the Craftsman brand in the longer term.

I used to work with Snap-On tools and I never had a question asked about breakages, any damaged tools were immediately replaced or fixed for free and I dealt with around half a dozen franchisees.
 
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CanonFanBoy

EOS 5D SR
Jan 28, 2015
4,505
2,261
Irving, Texas
Are you sure about that now the Craftsman brand name has been sold to Stanley Black and Decker and they are almost exclusively made in China? Sears have been deliberately run into the ground as an asset stripping operation and Stanley Black and Decker will have no commitment to any holding company that was owned by Sears in a few years time. I fear for the Craftsman brand in the longer term.

I used to work with Snap-On tools and I never had a question asked about breakages, any damaged tools were immediately replaced or fixed for free and I dealt with around half a dozen franchisees.
I had friends who exclusively bought Snap-On, Mac, etc. If a wrench showed signs of being beaten by a hammer (to free up a nut or bolt) then warranty was denied. Never such a problem with Craftsman's UNCONDITIONAL warranty (at the time, anyway).

From Snap-on's website: "In addition to any limitations outlined in warranty statements provided with the Product, Snap-on does NOT provide any warranty for (1) products labeled other than Snap-on or Blue-Point or (2) products subjected to "abnormal use". Products that are not labeled Snap-on or Blue-Point are subject to the warranty provided by the manufacturers of those products and Snap-on will pass along any such warranties. "Abnormal use" includes misuse, accident, modification, unreasonable use, abuse, neglect, lack of maintenance, use in product-related service, or use after the product is significantly worn. Abnormal use of tool storage units also includes, without limitation, situations when a unit is pulled using a mechanical vehicle, rolled over large drops, used in a highly corrosive environment, used as a step stool, modified with non-Snap-on parts, overloaded or modified in any way. "

From Craftsman: https://www.craftsman.com/customer-care/warranty-information

Of course, my tools were purchased during the Reagan administration. I have replaced 1 screwdriver I used as a chisel. No questions asked. I replaced many tools because I worked in a lot of acid (cupric, nitric, etc.) with no questions asked. My friends using Mac and Snap-on were denied warranty because those companies determined the tools were abused in such an environment. The only other alternative would have been titanium tools, but nobody was going to spend on those. I stuck to Craftsman.

Anyway, the point is that a 1DX carries no more warranty than the Rebels. 1 year. So paying extra doesn't guarantee anything. It doesn't make it more professional, although we would all agree it is a much tougher camera. It will take more abuse. But people saying they abuse their equipment because it can be abused more are just silly. If I had a 1DX... I would baby it. ;)
 

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SecureGSM

2 x 5D IV
Feb 26, 2017
1,531
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With al
The second statement doesn't follow from the first. "It isn't ideal for one/every specific use case" ≠ "it's a specialist device". I'm another who has used the 5Ds for general purposes - it's not much different from the 5D3 in most regards. It certainly requires more care to get pixel-level sharpness than lower res bodies, but I don't think that makes it a specialist camera, however often some people repeat that opinion (and either way, these are opinions).
With all due respect, your case is an exception. The majority of event shooters would resort to a lower resolution cameras. This is an opinion.
 

dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
1,476
952
Will the 80mp R be better at handling noise? With the newer sensor. I heard the 5Ds was terrible with noise
5Ds noise levels are competitive with other FF cameras even today. It's a myth that higher pixel density leads to higher noise. There are small differences between sensors of course, but the idea that high MP sensors are 'terrible with noise' is driven by pixel peeping where high MP files are magnified much more. Look up any review of the 5Ds where the reviewers actually compared images/prints at the same view size and you'll find they were happy with the high ISO performance. (And no, I don't know why Canon capped it at ISO 12,800. It could have had 25,600. 25,600 was the practical limit for any other camera in 2015 and remains so for most today.)

It should be noted that there was a time when 'higher pixel density = more noise' was true, but that was before gapless microlenses. And those were introduced a decade ago.

It's also a myth that there are large improvements between sensor generations in high ISO. It's not the 2000's any more. For most (all?) of this decade high ISO shots have been dominated by photon shot noise. Read noise is very well controlled in modern sensors even when compared to dedicated astro cameras. Some reviewers are starting to openly express disappointment with newer cameras that don't improve high ISO (see A7r IV reviews), but that is a result of not understanding just where we're at with high ISO. The only way to make major gains at this point are:
* Remove the CFA, which leaves you with B&W photos but gives you nearly 1ev more sensitivity.
* Actively cool the sensor. And I don't mean heatsinks or better body design. You have to really drop the temperatures like some astro cameras do. Kiss your battery and weather sealing goodbye.
* Taking multiple shots in rapid succession and stacking them with an algorithm that can deal with motion differences. Cell phones have gone this direction.

tl;dr - the high resolution R will not be substantially better or worse than any of today's FF cameras from a noise perspective at high ISO. It will be sharper with more detail which gives you more options when processing high ISO RAWs and applying NR.
 

dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
1,476
952
With all due respect, your case is an exception. The majority of event shooters would resort to a lower resolution cameras. This is an opinion.
I find it hard to shoot anything at a lower resolution given the flexibility available at high resolution. I shoot sports at 50mp RAW because I would rather manage the RAW buffer then deal with anything less.

That said: there are mraw and sraw modes on the 5Ds, along with a large number of JPEG resolutions. I see no reason why the high resolution R won't have these as well. The 'Rs' won't be a niche camera due to resolution, but due to price. I imagine most people would rather pay less for less megapixels and maybe a small bump in fps or better video features.

Canon always had far more aggressive pricing on the 5Ds/sR models in Asia and almost from their release date they could be found for $2k gray market. Maybe we'll get lucky and the same will be true for the Rs.
 
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sanj

EOS 5D MK IV
Jan 22, 2012
3,301
121
Thanks sanj, I'm trying to post more illustrative images at the moment because I get the feeling to many posts are now not based in any kind of practical reality. I want to show actual examples of any 'issues' or 'limitations' I personally have with the equipment I chose to buy.

As an example, I recently made a simple request of two very regular posters who highly recommend a particular piece of software to post a simple before and after example of the results they are getting and are so impressed with. Neither have.

Of course for my big prints I would have been far better served with a 5DS/r but personally I rely on the durability and reliability of the 1 series bodies, I travel a lot and have found a single 1 series to be reliable enough to not need to carry a 'backup' most of the time, I'm also very used to the various 1 series niceties like AF point linked spot metering, internal viewfinder blind, day long battery life etc.
Dear Private. Are you sure that you would have been 'far better' served with 5DSR? I mean are you sure the difference in 4ft * 3ft print would be 'far' noticeable between prints made by 1d and 5dsR? I suspect you would have to go much larger to see a 'far' difference. Please educate.
 

scyrene

EOS 5D MK IV
Dec 4, 2013
2,605
557
UK
www.flickr.com
With all due respect, your case is an exception. The majority of event shooters would resort to a lower resolution cameras. This is an opinion.
Oh I don't disagree. And they'd be right to do that. But unless I was getting the wrong end of the stick, my issue was with the oft-repeated opinion that the 5Ds(R) is a specialist camera. I contend it is perfectly capable of generalist use as is any 5-series body. Even if most people don't use it that way, it can be used as such. (And if they don't, I'd wager it's in part because of just such perceptions). That's all I'm saying :)
 

SecureGSM

2 x 5D IV
Feb 26, 2017
1,531
516
I find it hard to shoot anything at a lower resolution given the flexibility available at high resolution. I shoot sports at 50mp RAW because I would rather manage the RAW buffer then deal with anything less.

That said: there are mraw and sraw modes on the 5Ds, along with a large number of JPEG resolutions. I see no reason why the high resolution R won't have these as well. The 'Rs' won't be a niche camera due to resolution, but due to price. I imagine most people would rather pay less for less megapixels and maybe a small bump in fps or better video features.

Canon always had far more aggressive pricing on the 5Ds/sR models in Asia and almost from their release date they could be found for $2k gray market. Maybe we'll get lucky and the same will be true for the Rs.
I believe that Canon learnt their lesson with 5DS/R and market is better understood for them by now.
A ultra high res rig is an appealing proposition to many beyond the PJ and run and gun crowd.

I have no visibility into 5dS/R vs 5DIV sales data but would hazard a guess that market emphasis is on the 5D IV jack of all trades camera body.

I have never bumped o to an event, run and gun or pJ photog running with 5DS/R. I have done a fair number of public presos, public openings and red carpet gigs. All I see is: 5D III/IV and 1DX /II
 
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SecureGSM

2 x 5D IV
Feb 26, 2017
1,531
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Gotcha! You are correct. 5DSR is a capable camera that can certainly be used for a lower res, bread and butter shooting.
However my understanding is that the camera is optimised for a different type of work.
In my view there’re are two type of cameras: generalist type of camera and a specialist type of camera.

1DX and 5DS/r are a specialist type, pro cameras.
5D, 6D, 7D - a generalist type, pro camera.

You get the gist.
 
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Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
6,253
1,226
Alberta, Canada
Thanks sanj, I'm trying to post more illustrative images at the moment because I get the feeling to many posts are now not based in any kind of practical reality. I want to show actual examples of any 'issues' or 'limitations' I personally have with the equipment I chose to buy.

As an example, I recently made a simple request of two very regular posters who highly recommend a particular piece of software to post a simple before and after example of the results they are getting and are so impressed with. Neither have.

Of course for my big prints I would have been far better served with a 5DS/r but personally I rely on the durability and reliability of the 1 series bodies, I travel a lot and have found a single 1 series to be reliable enough to not need to carry a 'backup' most of the time, I'm also very used to the various 1 series niceties like AF point linked spot metering, internal viewfinder blind, day long battery life etc.
Scott, I could swear you were once debating with us that "I'm also very used to the various 1 series niceties like AF point linked spot metering" was marginally pointless?? ;)

Jack