DDOS Attack Takes Down Russian Source of Canon Pre-Release Details

[neuroanatomist]

Gosh, what an unpleasant diatribe. Your immediate resort to personal insult is very telling - it's as sure a measure as one will ever find that someone has no valid argument. Suffice it to say that when it comes to both the subject of the history of that part of the world and certainly when it comes to linguistics, the ignorance is yours.

You might not like it, but history and languages are complex subjects. Generally speaking the native speaker should be afforded the right to speak his native tongue as he sees fit. To call the Ukraine, the Ukraine is perfectly valid English, in the same way you'll find many old Bombay families who are English speakers or from the Parsi community in Bombay won't call the city Mumbai when speaking their own language, even when Hindu right-wing thugs threaten them they (justifiably) refuse to change, or you'll find some people in various parts of China legitimately use the name Peking when writing English.

Combined with the right of the native speaker to speak his own language of course there is a desire to not offend and to try to reach compromise. But someone came on here and immediately and unfairly criticised another for saying the Ukraine. I thought it impolite, especially as said person wasn't a native speaker. The English language is hard to pin down, it takes many forms - this is actually a great strength. That there is no central committee who gets to dictate what word we use for this or that is a welcome reality.

Look, this isn't difficult and I'm sorry you seem to have trouble understanding. The government of Ukraine requested that their country be referred to as Ukraine, not The Ukraine. Yes, the person who made reference to the Ukraine was not a native English speaker, and an apology was made by the member who made that assumption. That's not the problem. The problem is you and others excusing the improper reference with the justification that it it is 'very normal' and that 'lots of people say it'. History is replete with examples of such justifications. Segregation, enslavement and genocide were considered 'normal' by many.

If an individual expresses a preference for others to use a particular personal pronoun, someone who chooses to use a different pronoun to refer to that individual is being disrespectful. Same goes for Ukraine.

 

[mjg79]

Look, this isn't difficult and I'm sorry you seem to have trouble understanding. The government of Ukraine requested that their country be referred to as Ukraine, not The Ukraine. Yes, the person who made reference to the Ukraine was not a native English speaker, and an apology was made by the member who made that assumption. That's not the problem. The problem is you and others excusing the improper reference with the justification that it it is 'very normal' and that 'lots of people say it'. History is replete with examples of such justifications. Segregation, enslavement and genocide were considered 'normal' by many.

Gosh, still more insults. Now I am accused of in some way being connected with the justification of slavery! I believe that's referred to as jumping the shark! Moreover that's a gross insult as it happens, half my ancestors came from India, on tracing my family history I found many who died in famines in late 19th century India. I don't need any lectures or insults from you.

I mean this sincerely, I hope you find some peace in life, I've seen you insult many people on here before and it's so needless. I didn't address you, you went out of your way to insult me - a stranger on the internet. It's just not worth it for a happy life. I haven't insulted you.

And just for the record - you are not "on the nice side" of history in demanding state control of language. Shiv Sena, Stalin, Chinese Communists etc all did the same - now I am not going to lower myself to your level and try to smear you as being on their side or responsible for the horrors of many authoritarian regimes but to speak frankly you are very ignorant of history and I would ask you to stop insulting me. If you wish to call the Ukraine simply Ukraine, that's fine, be happy. In English it was virtually always called the Ukraine until recently and it's no fault to continue that use today: the Ukrainian government, indeed no government, can control language.

Languages are complex and living things. The fact "lots of people say it" is very much what keeps a language alive and is the best test of it.

 

[AlanF]

@Photo Bunny, I think you are in that situation where the best way to get yourself out of a hole might be to stop digging.

I do find it interesting that English speakers seem hellbent on anglicizing even simply pronounced place names. For example, why we call Firenze "Florence" and Roma "Rome." Or, for that matter, how did Deutschland become "Germany?" I am sure there is some linguistic history there. And, it does seem like we are getting a bit better about respecting some place names -- Beijing instead of Peking and Mumbai instead of Bombay, for example.

A bunny likes being in hole and burrowing deeper. You learn so much from wildlife photography.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Gosh, still more insults. Now I am accused of in some way being connected with the justification of slavery! I believe that's referred to as jumping the shark! Moreover that's a gross insult as it happens, half my ancestors came from India, on tracing my family history I found many who died in famines in late 19th century India. I don't need any lectures or insults from you.

I mean this sincerely, I hope you find some peace in life, I've seen you insult many people on here before and it's so needless. I didn't address you, you went out of your way to insult me - a stranger on the internet. It's just not worth it for a happy life. I haven't insulted you.

And just for the record - you are not "on the nice side" of history in demanding state control of language. Shiv Sena, Stalin, Chinese Communists etc all did the same - now I am not going to lower myself to your level and try to smear you as being on their side or responsible for the horrors of many authoritarian regimes but to speak frankly you are very ignorant of history and I would ask you to stop insulting me. If you wish to call the Ukraine simply Ukraine, that's fine, be happy. In English it was virtually always called the Ukraine until recently and it's no fault to continue that use today: the Ukrainian government, indeed no government, can control language.

Languages are complex and living things. The fact "lots of people say it" is very much what keeps a language alive and is the best test of it.

That whooshing sound is the point flying over your head. Conflate much? You refer to jumping the shark then suggest that I am, "Demanding state control of language?" Lol.

This is really simple. You are arguing that it's acceptable to refer to Ukraine using language that the government of that country requested not be used, and your rationale is that 'everyone does it'. You are wrong. The end.

 

[Jethro]

In English it was virtually always called the Ukraine until recently and it's no fault to continue that use today: the Ukrainian government, indeed no government, can control language.

Languages are complex and living things. The fact "lots of people say it" is very much what keeps a language alive and is the best test of it.

Few things boil my blood more than infantile resorts to 'freedom of speech' or such nebulous concepts. Everything exists in the context of the real world. In that real world, Ukraine gained independence from the former soviet union in 1991. It had been referred to as 'THE Ukraine' within the soviet union as part of (linguistically) the effort to deny it any independent existence or statehood. If it is forced back into Russia after the current invasion, Putin will probably push to refer to it officially as 'THE Ukraine' again. The words are important because they represent independent identity on the one hand, versus subjugated territory on the other.

But frankly this has been explained to you several times in this thread, and if you want to continue to deny even that shred of linguistic support to a nation currently under existential threat, then ... sleep well.

 

[Deleted member 387325]

Come on, guys. And you wonder why every site bans talking about politics. For some reason it brings out the worst in folks. Would be nice to have a simple exchange of ideas and let the conversation flow off topic without insults and childish back and forth. You ruin it for the rest of us and hijacked the thread, as well.

 

[Jethro]

Come on, guys. And you wonder why every site bans talking about politics. For some reason it brings out the worst in folks. Would be nice to have a simple exchange of ideas and let the conversation flow off topic without insults and childish back and forth. You ruin it for the rest of us and hijacked the thread, as well.

Right, so it's fine to 'flow off topic', but not to challenge egregious errors that then come up? There was an early exchange about the use of words, which was conducted (and resolved) amicably. Others then wanted to defend the indefensible. Well, guess what, things are referred to as 'indefensible' for a reason.

What did you, by the way, think the thread was about, other than the loss (temporarily or otherwise) of access to a site which has previously provided useful info on Canon products, as a direct result of current events in Ukraine?

 

[Deleted member 381342]

@Photo Bunny, I think you are in that situation where the best way to get yourself out of a hole might be to stop digging.

I do find it interesting that English speakers seem hellbent on anglicizing even simply pronounced place names. For example, why we call Firenze "Florence" and Roma "Rome." Or, for that matter, how did Deutschland become "Germany?" I am sure there is some linguistic history there. And, it does seem like we are getting a bit better about respecting some place names -- Beijing instead of Peking and Mumbai instead of Bombay, for example.

I am rather enjoying the debate, though thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Deleted member 381342]

A bunny likes being in hole and burrowing deeper. You learn so much from wildlife photography.

Speaking of bunnies I finally found the village burrows.

 

[Deleted member 387325]

Right, so it's fine to 'flow off topic', but not to challenge egregious errors that then come up? There was an early exchange about the use of words, which was conducted (and resolved) amicably. Others then wanted to defend the indefensible. Well, guess what, things are referred to as 'indefensible' for a reason.

What did you, by the way, think the thread was about, other than the loss (temporarily or otherwise) of access to a site which has previously provided useful info on Canon products, as a direct result of current events in Ukraine?

Not sure what you’re going on about but I’m speaking specifically to the name calling and childish insults. I contributed my own political comment earlier on and that’s fair game to me and part of the discussion. Personally I’d like to be able to digress into politics on occasion when they impact my hobbies, but my point was that if every time a discussion like that occurs and the insults and childishness start to dominate, then inevitably the mods ban the conversation and it ruins discussion for everyone.

 

[takesome1]

The problem is you and others excusing the improper reference with the justification that it it is 'very normal' and that 'lots of people say it'. History is replete with examples of such justifications. Segregation, enslavement and genocide were considered 'normal' by many.

Many "Americans" find it offensive to be referred to as Yanks, I wonder how that relates to Segregation and Enslavement.

Semantic debates are often on this site, but todays debate about the word "the" and its political implications is a bit extreme.

 

[Jethro]

Semantic debates are often on this site, but todays debate about the word "the" and its political implications is a bit extreme.

I genuinely don't want to keep this going, because it becomes counter-productive. But ...

The distinction between 'Ukraine' and 'The Ukraine' is not semantic. As stated earlier, it is the distinction between the usage of an aggressor (Russia) who characterises 'The Ukraine' as a part of greater Russia (a little as someone might refer to 'the Western countryside') and the Ukrainian people, who consider their country a separate and distinct entity, not part of a greater pan-slavic Russia. Words are important when they represent something - and that is what these words (very clearly) represent. It is what Ukrainians believe, and at this historical juncture, it is the height of disrespect not to at least acknowledge that fact.

 

[neuroanatomist]

I agree with you,@Jethro.

It’s unfortunate that @mjg79 believes that since she and others use ‘The Ukraine’ to refer to Ukraine, it is acceptable for her and others to continue to do so. It’s a bit ironic that @takesome1 thinks a debate over ‘the’ in the name of a country is extreme but she felt a debate over pronunciation of the name of a country was reasonable for her to engage in.

The internet being what it is, it’s unlikely that diwcussion here will change their attitudes.

 

[takesome1]

I agree with you,@Jethro.

It’s unfortunate that @mjg79 believes that since she and others use ‘The Ukraine’ to refer to Ukraine, it is acceptable for her and others to continue to do so. It’s a bit ironic that @takesome1 thinks a debate over ‘the’ in the name of a country is extreme but she felt a debate over pronunciation of the name of a country was reasonable for her to engage in.

The internet being what it is, it’s unlikely that diwcussion here will change their attitudes.

Maybe ironic, but a silly debate can be entertaining. I doubt anyone in harms way tonight in Ukraine is taking offense. Being safe is more important. My Japanese daughter in law has never taken exception to any of us referring to Japan as "Japan".

Also, I believe you just assigned me a gender. Are you sure on that one, some would take offense if you missed the mark. Would it be similar and wrong if I were to believe you were a "she" based on you possibly having an educational background similar to Blossom's. This is not an insult either, she is a very intelligent lady.

 

[takesome1]

I genuinely don't want to keep this going, because it becomes counter-productive. But ...

The distinction between 'Ukraine' and 'The Ukraine' is not semantic. As stated earlier, it is the distinction between the usage of an aggressor (Russia) who characterises 'The Ukraine' as a part of greater Russia (a little as someone might refer to 'the Western countryside') and the Ukrainian people, who consider their country a separate and distinct entity, not part of a greater pan-slavic Russia. Words are important when they represent something - and that is what these words (very clearly) represent. It is what Ukrainians believe, and at this historical juncture, it is the height of disrespect not to at least acknowledge that fact.

For Americans and those darn Yanks that live here, we watch our news sources and they often say it with a "The". Make fun of their ignorance if you will but those same people will push to do what is right. The majority of the people know little about what you just described.

We hear from our news sources a certain story, but the Russian news sources have a different view.

We hear stories of bombing schools and daycares. The Russians put out stories that their is genocide in parts of Ukraine. People should be weeding through the news story to find out what is really going on. Is our press truthful? Is theirs? Most importantly should we be speaking out to our government that we should do more. I know if I were in their position, I would be saying send me help, call us what ever you want but send "The" help.

Back to the original article, it is about a denial of service.
I do hope it is our boys doing their job, and not at just one agency.

United States Cyber Command - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Edit: OPPS/ after I posted this I noticed I did the same thing as @neuroanatomist, I assigned Gender. I should have said our boys, girls and all the others.

 

[Jethro]

For Americans and those darn Yanks that live here, we watch our news sources and they often say it with a "The". Make fun of their ignorance if you will but those same people will push to do what is right. The majority of the people know little about what you just described.

We hear from our news sources a certain story, but the Russian news sources have a different view.

Nothing in my posts made fun of 'Yanks' or their 'ignorance'. I was replying to you and telling you the context of something. So, by definition, you're no longer ignorant.

If you want to go into full 'fake news' mode, good on you. If you want to draw an equivalence between what you're (presumably) seeing on the news every night (and tonight will include the Russians shelling the largest nuclear power station in Europe), and propaganda around Ukrainian fascists committing genocide in the breakaway regions of the country (a claim discredited by every reputable source since it came up years ago), then again: good on you. I've got no further interest in communicating with you.

 

[LogicExtremist]

The Ukraine comes from the more literal translation being The border lands. Like how we call Nipol, Japan. I am unsure why we don't just call each country by their own defined name, it seems daft each language has their own word for another nation.

That would be nice, but can't see it happening. Probably because we all speak different languages that may have different sounds that don't exist in others, or complex tones that change the ,meanings of words when used incorrectly. I'm sure many in the anglo-centric US would have trouble pronouncing Zhōngguó which means 'Middle Kingdom' in Mandarin and is the Chinese name for China. Tht;s the pinyin spelling, which is not phonetic, it's not pronounced like it's read. Just one example of many...

 

[LogicExtremist]

What the heck are you talking about?

I believe the poster is referring to what is commonly referred to as US interventionist foreign policy, been reported widely in the nightly news over many decades, and complained about by other nations for just as long lol!

 

[LogicExtremist]

Just when you thought the Sony-Canon Fanboy Wars that have been running for a decade were divisive, there's nothing like a bit of politics to reignite the primal tribalism buried deep within the human psyche. It subtly reminds us that despite all our technological advances, and time spent arguing about which $6K camera body is the best, were still just primitive primate savages, albeit with fancy machines. Human history keeps repeating, regrettably we haven't evolved that much.

 

[unfocused]

...The distinction between 'Ukraine' and 'The Ukraine' is not semantic. As stated earlier, it is the distinction between the usage of an aggressor (Russia) who characterizes 'The Ukraine' as a part of greater Russia (a little as someone might refer to 'the Western countryside') and the Ukrainian people, who consider their country a separate and distinct entity, not part of a greater pan-slavic Russia. Words are important when they represent something - and that is what these words (very clearly) represent. It is what Ukrainians believe, and at this historical juncture, it is the height of disrespect not to at least acknowledge that fact.

Well stated. There is a war going on that, at its heart, is rooted in these "semantics." Within the word "the" lies the difference between an independent nation and a region subjigated by a more powerful and aggressive neighbor.