Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

[AprilForever]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

The 7D mk II HAS to be APS-C. If it is not, there will be blood, sweat, and tears!!!

On a serious note, neutering the 7D MK II would indeed be a marketing disaster. Will canon bloat the sensor to FF? I think not. The 5D MK III is nearly a FF 7d. Will Canon turn the 7D into the 70D? Only if they want Nikon to gobble that market.

Is it possible for Canon to do something mind-numbingly stupid? Yes. Anyone remember ET, the atari game?

Possible? Yes. Likely? No.

Don't despair. Canon is a shrewd, sophisticated company. They know their 7D customers and they know how to get us to upgrade to the II. We will see an APS-C 7DII and it will be spectacular. (And of course, they'll probably squeeze every cent out of us that they can. But we will go happily like lambs to the slaughter because we loves our 7Ds)

Indeed... A better 7D I would drop more for... I am guessing 2399.00...

 

[Loswr]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

A particular format of sensor has no IQ. There's nothing inherently better about APS-H than APS-C or FF.

True when you're talking about IQ on the pixel level, untrue when you're talking about IQ on the image level. The 20D and 5DII have the same size pixels. Yes, the 5DII pixels are 'better' but not better enough to account for the IQ differences between the sensors. The FF sensor has better IQ because as a whole, the larger sensor gathers more total light.

 

[unfocused]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

From a marketing perspective, a full frame 70D modeled after the 60D makes sense. It would allow an entry level full frame camera, to answer the Nikon D600 without putting to much pricing pressure on the 5D MkIII or the 7D MkII. It could be priced around the 7D without hurting its sales. Just like today most sport shooters would still buy a 1D MkIV over a 5D MkIII, they would by the 7D Mk II over the 70D entry level full frame.

Also an entry level full frame camera is still an entry level camera, not a pro camera, not marketed to pros, it doesn't need pro numbering or a pro body. A poly carb Super Rebel body like the 60D allows lower cost of production to keep the price low. It would work as a back up body for pro full frame shooters, or as an entry level full frame camera for those that want to step up.

100% agreement with your comments. Not sure about the numbering convention though. I think they'll call the full frame entrance level camera something different. (They are running out of numbers though, so not sure what they do) I'm still predicting the high megapixel camera will be called a 5DHD or something similar. Same body as the 5DIII, just a different sensor (and lower frame rate as a result). I think they still need the 70D in the lineup as an APS-C option for those who don't or won't spend as much as what a 7D costs.

Lots of people seem to think Canon and Nikon want to move everyone to full frame. But they might prefer to move everyone to two bodies: one full frame and one APS-C. Having a full range of choices in both formats gives them greater flexibility to suck every available dime out of us.

 

[Chuck Alaimo]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

It still makes sense to me that the 7d2 could be the FF offering. But, there is also a good argument for the 70D to be FF.

But if this is the competition:
New/updated Nikon D600 specifications:

24.7MP full frame sensor
Weight: 760g (850g with battery and memory cards), the D800 weights 900g
3.2" LCD with 921K dot with ambient sensor control
HDMI output
Video compression: H264/MPEG-4
Full HD with 30p, 25p, 24p, HD with 60p, 50p, 30p, 25p
Viewfinder coverage: 100% for FX , 97% for Dx
The Nikon D600 will have built-in AF motor
The body most probably will be weather sealed
The D600 may not have built-in *** as initially reported
ISO range: 100-6400 (with Lo-1 ISO 50 and Hi-2 ISO 25,600)
39 AF points (with an option of 11 AF points), 9 cross-type AF points
AF face detection
Exposure compensation: ±5 EV (same as the D800)
The D600 will probably use the EN-EL15 rechargeable Li-ion battery

If that's what the d600 is going to look like, then I'd say canon may be screwed if the the entry FF doesn't have some pro featured (like weather sealing). Canon has kind of forced themselves into a hole right now where they have to do something bold to stay competitive. Maybe nikon is seriously gambling, cause if those specs are retail price of $1500, they are mst certainly selling it at a loss to keep themselves relevant. Does a polycarb ff70d stand a chance???? can a ff super rebel make it (the ef-s glass issue is way more valid for the XXd series)..

If canon moves the 7D into FF territory, then they can for the firswt time really say that they xd series is their pro FF series.

From what I have heard, in Japan the number 6 is bad mojo, so its doubtful that they'd name anything with a 6 and no 0 after the 6.

no way the entry FF is called the 3d - 3D would have to fit in between the 1d and the 5d series, and if the rumors of a high MP body are true, the 3D would probably be that.

When it comes down to it though, we're all just have to sit and wait to see what actually happens!!!

 

[Loswr]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

A particular format of sensor has no IQ. There's nothing inherently better about APS-H than APS-C or FF.

True when you're talking about IQ on the pixel level, untrue when you're talking about IQ on the image level. The 20D and 5DII have the same size pixels. Yes, the 5DII pixels are 'better' but not better enough to account for the IQ differences between the sensors. The FF sensor has better IQ because as a whole, the larger sensor gathers more total light.

I'll beg to differ with you there. I'm pretty sure that if you took the center 8MP from a 5DII image that it would be better than the 20D's image when using the same lens at the same setting. e.g. from 20m away, use a 50/1.4 and photograph the same subject with both cameras. Yes, the images will not be the same but the center 8MP of both images should be. The center 8MP don't somehow magically benefit from the pixels around the edge of the sensor.

Yes, cropping throws away the benefit of the FF sensor gathering more total light. I'm saying that if you move closer with the FF camera (or zoom in with a zoom lens) so you're getting the same framing covering the sensor, you'll get better IQ from the FF sensor. That means there is an inherent advantage to FF, unless you go around shooting everything wider than you need and planning to crop away 60% of all your images.

 

[dlleno]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

From a marketing perspective, a full frame 70D modeled after the 60D makes sense. It would allow an entry level full frame camera, to answer the Nikon D600 without putting to much pricing pressure on the 5D MkIII or the 7D MkII. It could be priced around the 7D without hurting its sales. Just like today most sport shooters would still buy a 1D MkIV over a 5D MkIII, they would by the 7D Mk II over the 70D entry level full frame.

Also an entry level full frame camera is still an entry level camera, not a pro camera, not marketed to pros, it doesn't need pro numbering or a pro body. A poly carb Super Rebel body like the 60D allows lower cost of production to keep the price low. It would work as a back up body for pro full frame shooters, or as an entry level full frame camera for those that want to step up.

100% agreement with your comments. Not sure about the numbering convention though. I think they'll call the full frame entrance level camera something different.

yes I follow the reasoning to introduce an entry level FF, but you're right, imho, that the succession of 60D to 70D would be confusing for those who upgraded to 70D without knowing their APS-C lenses won't work.

... I think they still need the 70D in the lineup as an APS-C option for those who don't or won't spend as much as what a 7D costs.

Lots of people seem to think Canon and Nikon want to move everyone to full frame. But they might prefer to move everyone to two bodies: one full frame and one APS-C. Having a full range of choices in both formats gives them greater flexibility to suck every available dime out of us.

+1. for the pros who have 1DXs -- they will either buy more glass to get the reach once enjoyed by the 1D4, or they will turn to a different body. But with no1D5, the weight of evidence to me suggests a premium crop body of some flavor ,perhaps as a primary sports body for prosumers and secondary body for pros.

 

[dlleno]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Yes, cropping throws away the benefit of the FF sensor gathering more total light. I'm saying that if you move closer with the FF camera (or zoom in with a zoom lens) so you're getting the same framing covering the sensor, you'll get better IQ from the FF sensor. That means there is an inherent advantage to FF, unless you go around shooting everything wider than you need and planning to crop away 60% of all your images.

As a practical matter, I suspect the crop debate, at least in part, boils down to the fact that FF sensors are not likely to emerge with sufficient pixel density to produce IQ equivalent to a high quality crop sensor in distance constrained situations using the same lens, i.e. the same subject distance. At least not at a cost attractive to those who would be the most likely to benefit from such a camera. Perhaps the rumored high-MP FF would achieve this performance level I dont' know, but I note that the motivations for FF bodies are generally different from that of the cop bodies, such that to date we've not seen a FF body that can do this.

 

[BobSanderson]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

A particular format of sensor has no IQ. There's nothing inherently better about APS-H than APS-C or FF.

True when you're talking about IQ on the pixel level, untrue when you're talking about IQ on the image level. The 20D and 5DII have the same size pixels. Yes, the 5DII pixels are 'better' but not better enough to account for the IQ differences between the sensors. The FF sensor has better IQ because as a whole, the larger sensor gathers more total light.

I'll beg to differ with you there. I'm pretty sure that if you took the center 8MP from a 5DII image that it would be better than the 20D's image when using the same lens at the same setting. e.g. from 20m away, use a 50/1.4 and photograph the same subject with both cameras. Yes, the images will not be the same but the center 8MP of both images should be. The center 8MP don't somehow magically benefit from the pixels around the edge of the sensor.

Yes, cropping throws away the benefit of the FF sensor gathering more total light. I'm saying that if you move closer with the FF camera (or zoom in with a zoom lens) so you're getting the same framing covering the sensor, you'll get better IQ from the FF sensor. That means there is an inherent advantage to FF, unless you go around shooting everything wider than you need and planning to crop away 60% of all your images.

Agree -I think many of the "experts" at camera shops don't understand this either.

 

[Loswr]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

As a practical matter, I suspect the crop debate, at least in part, boils down to the fact that FF sensors are not likely to emerge with sufficient pixel density to produce IQ equivalent to a high quality crop sensor in distance constrained situations using the same lens, i.e. the same subject distance.

Surprisingly, when you shoot the same subject at the same distance and crop the FF image to the FoV of the APS-C sensor, the IQ isn't too different, at least based on my comparison of the 5DII with the 7D. The 7D image was slightly sharper, the 5DII image was slightly less noisy (and you can trade noise for sharpness, meaning effectively a wash). But...the cropped 5DII image is only 8 MP, compared to the full 18 MP of the 7D. So...if you need to crop further (or if 8 MP is not enough resolution for your desired output), then the APS-C sensor is the better choice.

Practically speaking, I often need to crop my 7D images of birds shot at 400mm, therefore I'm keeping my 7D after getting the 1D X.

 

[BobSanderson]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

"IF" Canon can still change their plans to compete more effectively with Nikon's FFs I think what would make most sense would be:

The forthcoming 70D would become the premiere Canon APS-C with many of the bells, whistles of and structure of the past 7D with faster fps and a newer AF but stay at 18 MP. Priced somewhere between $1,400 to 2,000...a better value (and much better than the new Rebel) with an improved sensor (dynamic range and IQ upped a little)

The 7D II would go FF with many of the same features of the 5D III tempered down (less AF points, not as wonderful weather sealing...) with faster FPS but also at 22 MP. Similar but less robust than the 5D III. Call it the Jr. at about $500 more than the 7D II. This still leave a large pricing gap to reach the 5D III. It would be the prosumer FF.

The 5D II would be retired after great service to Canon and photographers.

The 5D III would begin to be offered, after catching up with demand, with some tactical rebates and lens offers to compete more effectively with D800 on price - updates would tweek some of the complaints and offer new features to make this great camera even better and the price would settle down at around $3,000 eventually.

Canon would start looking to deliver a high MP camera with a latest sensor for landscapers and others worried about MP wars....

 

[KyleSTL]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

TTMartin and unfocused are singing my tune. If Canon released a 60D body with a FF sensor in it, I would be all over it. Furthermore, it would probably push down the selling price of the 5DI, due to lower market demand. A $500 5DI sounds awesome. It would also probably affect the 5DII market since it would almost definitely have 9 cross-type AF sensors (from the 40D, 50D, 60D, and T4i) and a newer sensor and Digic 5, etc of the latest generation. I hope the D600 comes out soon, since we're likely to see a reply from Canon shortly thereafter.

 

[Loswr]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Same light per unit area, true (thus, same exposure). More area = more total light. If you frame the subject identically (which, IMO, is the most relevant comparison since composition determines the picture), the subject is occupying a larger fractional area of the image circle, meaning more total light from the subject will fall on a FF sensor.

Right, so if the 1DX was 46MP and had the same pixel density as the 7D then you could dispense with the crop camera

Heck, if it was 36 MP and could still deliver that high frame rate, I'd dispense with the 7D...

 

[dlleno]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Right, so if the 1DX was 46MP and had the same pixel density as the 7D then you could dispense with the crop camera

There is little question that one could produce a FF sensor with the same pixel density as a crop sensor and therefore preclude the need to crop externally, but I'm not convinced that today's state-of-the-art is capable of producing such a camera in a way that makes it attractive to those who want to use it for its FF capabilties, i.e. without throwing away the advantages relating to low pixel pitch.

There is, certainly, some FF pixel count which will produce the optimimum "end to end resolution IQ" competition for an 18MP crop sensor, of the same technology cycle, for the distance-constrained situations where one must crop the FF image to obtain the same FOV. I suspect that pixel count is less than 46, and that such a camera would produce images inferior to the otherwise equivalent lower density FF in those situations that benefit from that lower density.

THere is no question that the FF is superior when the subject can be framed optimially. The only area in which the crop debate rightfully exists, imho, is in those situations where is not NOT possible to frame the subject optimally-- for example, wildlife situations where the subject distance cannot be reduced, or one does not have a longer lens

 

[TTMartin]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

I would be surprised if there weren't already FF sensors in existence with the same pixel density as crop sensors today. The problem is manufacturing. With a larger sensor there is also a similar increase in the chance of a flaw in the fabrication process to render the sensor useless. With fewer sensors per slice of silicon than with crop sensors, the requirements for a good yield are much more stringent with full frame sensors. The chance of a flaw during production goes up as the size of the pixels go down and the megapixel count goes up.

Nikon/Sony delivering a 36MP sensor camera for $500 less than the 5D3 also says a lot about the manufacturing processes being used. It may be that Canon have got more catching up to do than we realise.

Well, Canon has built a 120mp APS-H sensor.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/2010/8/24/canon120mpsensor

And a huge CMOS Sensor.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/2010/08/31/canonlargestsensor

Everybody talks like Sony/Nikon have some sort of amazing technological advantage over Canon. Except for DXOMark scores there is nothing that shows this. Dispite what DXOMark says tests at DPReview show that the 5D Mk III has more dynamic range than the D800 http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d800-d800e/19

So either Nikon has some really crappy processors that mess up the 2.7 stop advantage that DXOMark says the D800 has, or we should stop quoting, worrying about, or looking at what DXOMark says.

If we're going to base or view of Canon's sensors on DXOMark scores, than Canon might as well not do anything. Because no matter how good a sensor Canon produces, DXOMark will still rate it the same.

 

[x-vision]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

APS-C does not give the same IQ as APS-H
APS-H has more reach than ff

... but by that logic, APS-H does not give the same IQ as FF, no?

APS-H is the compromise solution that has no major weakness

Nope.

Even the kids know that bigger is better 8).
So, from a marketing perspective, APS-H has one really major flaw: it's smaller than FF.
And if your camera has a smaller thingy than the competition, you can't charge same/more than the competition.
It's that simple.

Nikon switched from DX to FX in their pro Dx line because Canon was winning with a bigger thingy in their cameras.
And Canon in turn switched from APS-H to FF in the 1-series because now Nikon had a bigger thingy.

So, despite all the cheerleading, APS-H is out forever. Get over it .

 

[poias]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Dispite what DXOMark says tests at DPReview show that the 5D Mk III has more dynamic range than the D800 http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d800-d800e/19

You are joking, right? Turn the ADL to Extra High and see D800 range go from the end to end. Let's face it, 5D3's DR is even worse than its 4 year old predecessor's.

 

[TTMartin]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

APS-C does not give the same IQ as APS-H
APS-H has more reach than ff

... but by that logic, APS-H does not give the same IQ as FF, no?

APS-H is the compromise solution that has no major weakness

Nope.

Even the kids know that bigger is better 8).
So, from a marketing perspective, APS-H has one really major flaw: it's smaller than FF.
And if your camera has a smaller thingy than the competition, you can't charge same/more than the competition.
It's that simple.

Nikon switched from DX to FX in their pro Dx line because Canon was winning with a bigger thingy in their cameras.
And Canon in turn switched from APS-H to FF in the 1-series because now Nikon had a bigger thingy.

So, despite all the cheerleading, APS-H is out forever. Get it over with .

Well, remember the original APS-H spec (Kodak Film) was for a 16X9 aspect ratio. With the same height as APS-C. So, Canon could have a 16X9 APS-H sensor with a mirror that was the same height as an APS-C camera, only wider. So, it would clear EF-S lenses. If they did that, Canon could have an APS-H sensor camera that was compatible with EF-S lenses.

 

[Albi86]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Everybody talks like Sony/Nikon have some sort of amazing technological advantage over Canon. Except for DXOMark scores there is nothing that shows this. Dispite what DXOMark says tests at DPReview show that the 5D Mk III has more dynamic range than the D800 http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d800-d800e/19

Well, it's obvious that Sony is a much bigger company with a much bigger wallet, and thus can afford to invest a lot more in R&D than Canikon. Also, Sony is into many more things than just photography.

A sensor is a piece of tech, by itself has little to do with photography. I think Nikon was very smart to buy them from someone who knows better in this respect, while keeping processor coding in-house.

 

[TTMartin]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Everybody talks like Sony/Nikon have some sort of amazing technological advantage over Canon. Except for DXOMark scores there is nothing that shows this. Dispite what DXOMark says tests at DPReview show that the 5D Mk III has more dynamic range than the D800 http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d800-d800e/19

So either Nikon has some really crappy processors that mess up the 2.7 stop advantage that DXOMark says the D800 has, or we should stop quoting, worrying about, or looking at what DXOMark says.

Or dpreview is using JPEGs and not RAW data.

While you're on that dpreview page, make these changes:
Set the "Canon EOS 5D Mark III" to "HTP On"
Set the "Nikon D800" to "ADL Extra High"

This should give you:
Canon EOS 5D Mark II - ~33 to ~2
Nikon D800 - ~38 to ~2

The whole point about DXOMark is that they are supposed to be measuring the sensor without all the electronic nannies.

So, yes ADL and HTP can stretch the data to expand the dynamic range, but, DXOMarks claim that the D800s sensor alone has more dynamic range just doesn't hold water.

Or just look at DXOMarks own data the Canon 5D Mk III matches or outscores the Nikon D800 on the screen scores for ISO Sensitivity, SNR 18%, Tonal Range, and Color Sensitivity, yet for some reason the Nikon D800 has a massive Dynamic Range advantage? My understanding that all of those other scores are necessary components that would give the camera its dynamic range. It just doesn't add up!

The Canon 50D was the first casualty of DXOMark. It had much better sensor performance than the D90, yet, people kept pointing to DXOMark and saying how lacking the camera was. Well, sorry the vast majority of people who actually have owned a 50D know it was one heck of a camera, much better than it was ever given credit for.

So, stop getting a complex over Canon's sensors because of DXOMark, and focus on how they actually perform.

 

[simonxu11]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

I would be surprised if there weren't already FF sensors in existence with the same pixel density as crop sensors today. The problem is manufacturing. With a larger sensor there is also a similar increase in the chance of a flaw in the fabrication process to render the sensor useless. With fewer sensors per slice of silicon than with crop sensors, the requirements for a good yield are much more stringent with full frame sensors. The chance of a flaw during production goes up as the size of the pixels go down and the megapixel count goes up.

Nikon/Sony delivering a 36MP sensor camera for $500 less than the 5D3 also says a lot about the manufacturing processes being used. It may be that Canon have got more catching up to do than we realise.

Well, Canon has built a 120mp APS-H sensor.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/2010/8/24/canon120mpsensor

And a huge CMOS Sensor.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/2010/08/31/canonlargestsensor

So what? Where are the cameras with these sensors?