Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

[plutonium10]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

I still believe the XXD line will be dropped and the 7DII will take it's place.

I seriously doubt Canon would just drop the XXD line. I agree that a 7D MK II (if the 7D/60D product lines are in fact merged) could successfully become the spiritual successor to both the 7D and 60D in many regards, but dropping the actual XXD moniker? No. In my mind, it could make sense for the rumored entry-level FF camera to use the XXD badge, which would further help distance it from the more advanced features of the 5D III / 7D II. Then again, if it does end up being more expensive than the 7D II, the 6D name might be a better fit.

 

[Richard8971]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

I still believe the XXD line will be dropped and the 7DII will take it's place.

I seriously doubt Canon would just drop the XXD line. I agree that a 7D MK II (if the 7D/60D product lines are in fact merged) could successfully become the spiritual successor to both the 7D and 60D in many regards, but dropping the actual XXD moniker? No. In my mind, it could make sense for the rumored entry-level FF camera to use the XXD badge, which would further help distance it from the more advanced features of the 5D III / 7D II. Then again, if it does end up being more expensive than the 7D II, the 6D name might be a better fit.

OK, I could see keeping the XXD line IF the line went FF (which is very unlikely). BUT, not if the 70D and 7DII were APS-C sensors.

I forsee the XXD line being dropped in favor of a flagship 7DII and I forsee an entry level FF (3D or 6D, maybe) to replace the 5DII.

Besides the 70D and 7DII would more than likely be APS-C sensors. Given the features of the T4i where would you place the specs of the two? Any ideas anyone? My opinion? IF they released the 70D and 7DII the 7DII would have to be placed in the APS-C 32MP+, 8-10 fps range (with 1DX/5DII features). It's possible, but who knows really. The 70D would have to be placed in the 24MP+ 6-8 fps range to be better than the T4i.

D

 

[Richard8971]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

I seriously doubt Canon would just drop the XXD line.

Why not? They "just" "downgraded" it to a plastic body and lower FPS to not directly compete with the 7D. :-[

D

 

[plutonium10]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

I seriously doubt Canon would just drop the XXD line.

Why not? They "just" "downgraded" it to a plastic body and lower FPS to not directly compete with the 7D. :-[

D

That's true, they did just that, but the XXD name is useful in itself from a marketing perspective because it allows a model to be placed somewhat below the greatness of xD bodies and somewhat above the xxxD consumer line. This is what leads me believe that the xxD line will survive, and it's also why I think a "budget" FF could fit the name well. I do admit the idea is somewhat unlikely but who knows?

 

[RLPhoto]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Ill Take APS-H over APS-C any day. I really hope the 7D is 10FPS and APS-H.

 

[Richard8971]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

I seriously doubt Canon would just drop the XXD line.

Why not? They "just" "downgraded" it to a plastic body and lower FPS to not directly compete with the 7D. :-[

D

That's true, they did just that, but the XXD name is useful in itself from a marketing perspective because it allows a model to be placed somewhat below the greatness of xD bodies and somewhat above the xxxD consumer line. This is what leads me believe that the xxD line will survive, and it's also why I think a "budget" FF could fit the name well. I do admit the idea is somewhat unlikely but who knows?

True, but from a marketing standpoint the 70D and 7DII would continue the APS-C sensor trend. We are talking about some high MP, high performance cameras from both. Canon cannot keep every future camera at 18MP. If true, I cannot wait to see what Canon comes up with.

D

 

[Richard8971]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Ill Take APS-H over APS-C any day. I really hope the 7D is 10FPS and APS-H.

Yes I agree but to "upgrade" from a 7D to a "7DII" the upgrade would have to justify the cost. As suggested, too many 7D owners (myself included) own EF-s lenses. The EF-s (as of yet) is not compatible with an EF APS-H body. I don't see Canon making such a decision.

D

 

[RLPhoto]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Ill Take APS-H over APS-C any day. I really hope the 7D is 10FPS and APS-H.

Yes I agree but to "upgrade" from a 7D to a "7DII" the upgrade would have to justify the cost. As suggested, too many 7D owners (myself included) own EF-s lenses. The EF-s (as of yet) is not compatible with an EF APS-H body. I don't see Canon making such a decision.

D

Thats what the 70D will be. The next Flagship APS-c camera.

 

[briansquibb]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

There's a thread elsewhere about some Euro football shooter that is using the 1DX. Does he complain anywhere about no longer having a 1.3x crop? No. All he cares about is the autofocus performance and frame rate. Wonder of wonders.

I can't follow the logic of your threads - one minute you are advocating APS-C because of the reach now you are talking about ff. My difficulty is understanding why you are so anti APS-H.

You're being a troll now.

So I take that as meaning you dont have experience of both APS-C and APS-H on which to base your arguments.

My understanding of a troll would seem to fit you like a glove:

"a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response"

 

[distant.star]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6


.
Wow, that's some definition. I've seen people described as trolls, but never had a precise meaning, and this is amazing. That suggests some people actually have an emotional attachment to photographic equipment? Maybe this gay marriage thing really has gone too far. Someone will marry their camera next?

Oh, and so I'm not a troll...

Again, I don't believe Canon will use the APS-H again in still cameras. I don't think there will be a 70D either.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.

"a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response"

 

[briansquibb]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

That suggests some people actually have an emotional attachment to photographic equipment?

I understand that might be more of name calling, posting a very controversial or illogical argument knowing that it would provoke an angry response

 

[plutonium10]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

"a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response"

Anyone who says good things about Nikon. :

 

[Rocky]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

There are a few interesting and heated discussion about APS-H. Here is my take on it. APS-H is 56% larger than the APS-C. A 28 MP APS-H will have the same pixel density density as the 18 MP APS-C. So it is an easy way to increase pixel count without losing image quality. If we go the opposite way. Keep 18MP on the APS-H we will have better picture quality, better dynamic range than the 18MP APS-C. The cost of APS-H sensor will be definitely less than the FF sensor.
So far there are two argument against the APS-H: "Reach" and not enough wide angle lenses. For me both are not as important as it sounds. There is only a 20% difference in "Reach" between APS-H and APS-C. It is not such a big deal. It is the same difference between a 250mm lens and a 300mm lens. In real world. It doe not matter. As for wide angle. There is a 14mm L. It will be equal to 18mm on the APS-H and 22.4mm on the APS-C. There Is a EF-S 10-22mm. That will make it a 16 to 35mm on APS-C. There is about 10% difference in coverage between 18mm and 16mm coverage. It is a big deal when we need it. But how many of us will be using these focal length???
For the APS-C user that is having a 17-40mm L. Your effective wide angle will be increased from a 27mm coverage to 22mm coverage. That is a bonus.

Therefore I am totally for a APS-H body with 18MP and no grip to give us good IQ and DR. A poor man's 1D without the weight and size. Or Canon can put it it a GOOD mirrorless and make it a poorman's M8.

 

[expatinasia]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

There are a few interesting and heated discussion about APS-H. Here is my take on it. APS-H is 56% larger than the APS-C. A 28 MP APS-H will have the same pixel density density as the 18 MP APS-C. So it is an easy way to increase pixel count without losing image quality. If we go the opposite way. Keep 18MP on the APS-H we will have better picture quality, better dynamic range than the 18MP APS-C. The cost of APS-H sensor will be definitely less than the FF sensor.
So far there are two argument against the APS-H: "Reach" and not enough wide angle lenses. For me both are not as important as it sounds. There is only a 20% difference in "Reach" between APS-H and APS-C. It is not such a big deal. It is the same difference between a 250mm lens and a 300mm lens. In real world. It doe not matter. As for wide angle. There is a 14mm L. It will be equal to 18mm on the APS-H and 22.4mm on the APS-C. There Is a EF-S 10-22mm. That will make it a 16 to 35mm on APS-C. There is about 10% difference in coverage between 18mm and 16mm coverage. It is a big deal when we need it. But how many of us will be using these focal length???
For the APS-C user that is having a 17-40mm L. Your effective wide angle will be increased from a 27mm coverage to 22mm coverage. That is a bonus.

Therefore I am totally for a APS-H body with 18MP and no grip to give us good IQ and DR. A poor man's 1D without the weight and size. Or Canon can put it it a GOOD mirrorless and make it a poorman's M8.

Great post Rocky. Very informative.

 

[dlleno]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

From my ownership of both the 7D I am suggesting a replacement for the 7D as a APS-H super sports camera not a replacement for the 1DX. I would be interested to know whether 7D owners would like to upgrade to:

- 10fps
- 24mps
- twin CF slots
- 42 point AF
- AF point metering

All these features would be available by migrating down the technology from the 1D4. Not a big deal and from my experience a very valid suggestion.

I'm very serious here. Brian if that were the case, I'd buy that over the 1D X and be very happy.

I would be all over that one too -- even without integrated grip, but otherwise nicely weather sealed. And no, Canon has made no announcment (correct me if wrong, here) that the APS-H has been placed in end of life status. That doesn't mean it isn't at the end of its life, it just means Canon hasn't said so. All they've said is that 1D and 1DS are merged in the 1DX and they remain committed to sports/wildlife. whatever that means. I still think their plans to fulfil this commitment have not yet been telegraphed -- other wise we wouldn't be speculating so vigorously

Of course, what Canon wants us to do is buy the 1DX AND some other body.

Without APS-H in the picture, that "other body" has to be a flagship APS-C , probably 7D2. It better be good, as I say 'more convincing' than the 7D's present edge over cropped 5D3 images. But then we would still have four APS-C bodies so one of those has to either go away or go to FF in my opinion. Who knows, maybe we'll see both a 7D2 (APS-C) and 7DX (FF), while 70D drops.

Honestly Brian I wish Canon would pull off just the surprise you mention, as a differentiator. Such a body would fill the frame better than the tog next to you who has a FF body -- when you are both using a 600mm f/4 + 1.4x TC trying to capture a black bear cub in the tree. You can't get closer but you are both glad to have noise performance and shadow detail superior to what an APS-C sensor would provide due to its elevated pixel density. who's gonna get the better photo?

I Refer to Rocky's well articulated analysis of the FOV benefits and tradeoffs. Great job Rocky.

On another note -- honestly I don't consider any of the historical argments valid at all, i.e. why or how APS-H came to be. I don't care how it came to be, I care that it is. I care about whether or not its benefits will survive the market pressures and perceptions, and I care whether or not it is part of Canon's strategic roadmap.

 

[Loswr]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

There are a few interesting and heated discussion about APS-H. Here is my take on it. APS-H is 56% larger than the APS-C. A 28 MP APS-H will have the same pixel density density as the 18 MP APS-C. So it is an easy way to increase pixel count without losing image quality. If we go the opposite way. Keep 18MP on the APS-H we will have better picture quality, better dynamic range than the 18MP APS-C. The cost of APS-H sensor will be definitely less than the FF sensor.

I'd prefer the 28 MP APS-H, personally.

So far there are two argument against the APS-H: "Reach" and not enough wide angle lenses. For me both are not as important as it sounds. There is only a 20% difference in "Reach" between APS-H and APS-C. It is not such a big deal. It is the same difference between a 250mm lens and a 300mm lens. In real world. It doe not matter. As for wide angle. There is a 14mm L. It will be equal to 18mm on the APS-H and 22.4mm on the APS-C. There Is a EF-S 10-22mm. That will make it a 16 to 35mm on APS-C. There is about 10% difference in coverage between 18mm and 16mm coverage. It is a big deal when we need it. But how many of us will be using these focal length???
For the APS-C user that is having a 17-40mm L. Your effective wide angle will be increased from a 27mm coverage to 22mm coverage. That is a bonus.

Not sure I buy this - where do you draw the line? 20% more reach is 400mm to close to 500mm - that's significant. 10% wider doesn't sound like a lot, but when you look at 16mm vs 18mm, it's a bigger difference than it sounds.

What I'd really like is for Canon to deliver an APS-C sensor with significantly lower ISO noise, and put it in a 1-series type body.

 

[unfocused]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

What I'd really like is for Canon to deliver an APS-C sensor with significantly lower ISO noise, and put it in a 1-series type body.

I'd be happy with that sensor in a 5- or 7-series body.

 

[wickidwombat]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

I think 28MP APS-H would be a bit much with current sensor tech
i'd be concerned about potential IQ issues also it will kill the ability to have high FPS

stick it at 22MP
9 or 10 FPS
dual cards
5D3 body, same VF etc, same level of customisation
1Dmk4 AF including keeping the f8 AF

 

[dlleno]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

I think 28MP APS-H would be a bit much with current sensor tech
i'd be concerned about potential IQ issues also it will kill the ability to have high FPS

as long as we're still amusing ourselves with the possibility of an APS-H body...

yes this is what, imho, makes it less likely that an APS-C body will become a go-to crop body for pro wildlifers along side the 1DX. Even if Canon pulls some astonishing breakthrough that makes APS-C viable for this purpose, it would seem the advantage would even better realized if such a breakthrough were applied to APS-H instead -- unless of course the breakthrough were so astonishing that H offered little advantage over C, in which case the next 48MP FF will render the whole question moot anyway.

So -- until such a breakthrough happens, Canon could keep dodging and dancing with the competition instead of confronting it head on -- by offering an H body with a unique mix of reach and IQ.

I would also suggest that the "missing" FOV/Focal length concerns relative to APS-H are not important if Canon is expecting the pro togs to also carry a 1DX.

 

[PhotoCharlie]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

So long as we're all speculating (whether you can justify it technically, or with market segmentation, or with competition, let's all agree it's simply fun to speculate), here's some I haven't seen suggested, or haven't seen in this thread.

• Mirrorless becomes the new entry level multi-lens camera
• 4Ti/650D is the continuation of the xxD APS-C series (continuing the 60D body form factor step down from 50D)
• 70D is the entry level FF at $1500 (MP properly sized for proper video downsizing, but smaller MP than 5Diii)
• 7Dii remains the premier APS-C with new 22.1MP for improved video downsizing and the rumored 2.0 firmware features.
• A 5Diii variant (4D anyone or how about 5Diiix?) with FF big MP in a density/ratio that retains the 5Diii video downsizing benefits.

So there would be 2 mid level segments with APS-C and FF cameras for each: the mostly affordable entry level enthusiast and the more expensive advanced enthusiast/pro.

My 2 cents (or at least my current speculation whether I beleive it or not).