Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

[Richard8971]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

• Mirrorless becomes the new entry level multi-lens camera
• 4Ti/650D is the continuation of the xxD APS-C series (continuing the 60D body form factor step down from 50D)
• 70D is the entry level FF at $1500 (MP properly sized for proper video downsizing, but smaller MP than 5Diii)
• 7Dii remains the premier APS-C with new 22.1MP for improved video downsizing and the rumored 2.0 firmware features.
• A 5Diii variant (4D anyone or how about 5Diiix?) with FF big MP in a density/ratio that retains the 5Diii video downsizing benefits.

I would have to agree but I am not sure I see the XXD becoming FF. Reason? It's the same reason why the XD line will not become FF, too many XXD owners and XD owners have EF-s lenses. An upgrade HAS to be justified by the buyer and if the upgrade cannot use ones current hardware, what's the point of upgrading?

Example, the 5D line has ALWAYS been FF, just as the Rebel line has ALWAYS been APS-C and so on and so on. Canon intergrated two high performance lines (1Ds and 1D) for the better, BUT APS-H bodies CANNOT use EF-s lenses SO, it makes sense to upgrade to the newer body.

I forsee the XXD and XD line becoming the new flagship APS-C camera (into the 7DII) and a new 5 series (or 3D) FF entry level. Canon will likely stay within current camera labels or create new ones (I.E. 3D or 6D) Simple marketing is my reasoning, they will likely keep the current tried and proven trends going.

D

 

[wickidwombat]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

the whole EF-S lens thing is really a non issue for the following reasons

1) lets be real there are a total of 2 EF-S lenses worth having that are affected the 17-55 and the 15-85
the rest are blown away by EF lenses

2) yes there are good non canon Dx lenses but I dont think canon really care about them

3) when people are using the crop for reach arguement they are NOT talking about EF-S lenses they are using longer EF lenses and often L lenses

 

[Richard8971]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

the whole EF-S lens thing is really a non issue for the following reasons

Um WRONG. Some EF-s lenses are just as good as many "L" class lenses and Canon continues to produce them.

Example: Standard Zoom Lenses (7 EF-s lenses vs 3 EF lenses and 1 is a replacement)

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/ef_lens_lineup

Some EF-s lenses are very expensive, tell this to many happy EF-s lens owners, like myself, that Canon somehow will not take EF-s lenses into consideration when releasing an upgrade to a current camera line.

D

 

[wickidwombat]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

the whole EF-S lens thing is really a non issue for the following reasons

Um WRONG. Some EF-s lenses are just as good as many "L" class lenses and Canon continues to produce them.

Example: Standard Zoom Lenses (7 EF-s lenses vs 3 EF lenses and 1 is a replacement)

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/ef_lens_lineup

Some EF-s lenses are very expensive, tell this to many happy EF-s lens owners, like myself, that Canon somehow will not take EF-s lenses into consideration when releasing an upgrade to a current camera line.

D

yes i specified all 2 of them :

 

[Richard8971]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

yes i specified all 2 of them :

Well, say what you want, but I own EF-s lenses as well as EF "L" lenses and some EF-s lenses I have I will put against "L" glass anyday.

D

 

[wickidwombat]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

woops i missed the 10-22 so there are 3 the rest are pretty lackluster

 

[dlleno]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

the whole EF-S lens thing is really a non issue for the following reasons

1) lets be real there are a total of 2 EF-S lenses worth having that are affected the 17-55 and the 15-85
the rest are blown away by EF lenses

I don't think I can buy this argument. first of all, you left out the 10-22. All three are high dollar S lenses which equal or approach L optical quality in a less expensive build quality. serious APS-C body users will have one and usually two out of the three

3) when people are using the crop for reach arguement they are NOT talking about EF-S lenses they are using longer EF lenses and often L lenses

well this point is not valid either because when people use the crop for reach argument along with the EF-S lens question they are talking about preserving their camera body's ability to function at WA and UWA FOVs with their existing glass. Look up the price of the 10-22 and the 17-55, and then imagine the migration to a FF body, making that investment suddenly useless. Thats big evidence in favor of an APS-C 7D2, and 70D bodies.

 

[Richard8971]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

the whole EF-S lens thing is really a non issue for the following reasons

1) lets be real there are a total of 2 EF-S lenses worth having that are affected the 17-55 and the 15-85
the rest are blown away by EF lenses

I don't think I can buy this argument. first of all, you left out the 10-22. All three are high dollar S lenses which equal or approach L optical quality in a less expensive build quality. serious APS-C body users will have one and usually two out of the three

3) when people are using the crop for reach arguement they are NOT talking about EF-S lenses they are using longer EF lenses and often L lenses

well this point is not valid either because when people use the crop for reach argument along with the EF-S lens question they are talking about preserving their camera body's ability to function at WA and UWA FOVs with their existing glass. Look up the price of the 10-22 and the 17-55, and then imagine the migration to a FF body, making that investment suddenly useless. Thats big evidence in favor of an APS-C 7D2, and 70D bodies.

Well put, thank you.

D

 

[Richard8971]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

woops i missed the 10-22 so there are 3 the rest are pretty lackluster

Well, that's still 3 EF-s lenses to 2 EF lenses (In ONLY the standard zoom line), and Canon has shown it's dedication to the EF-s line by coming out with some pretty impressive EF-s lenses, hands down.

Oh, and not every "EF" lens ever produced were of excellent quality either, BUT some EF-s lenses HAVE shown themselves to be "L" class quality optically.

D

 

[wickidwombat]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

yeah I added the 10-22 that I missed out and you will notice the 3 lenses are they 3 that preserve the wide end on APS-C they are they only EF-S lenses that fit into the higher quality bracket. for the tele end APS-C give you the 2 added benefits on the EF lenses of sweet spot effect and the additional reach.

If the 70D steps back into having decent build quality and good features and regain the top level APS-C crown

it leaves room for a high performance APS-H camera which has the following significant advantages over APS-C

1) significantly better image quality
2) still get the sweet spot effect
3) till get some additional crop factor reach but not at the expense of image quality
4) ability to increase FPS over FF

of course this is all based on current sensor tech, If crop sensors can overcome the current IQ issues and approach current FF IQ then I would expect to see a similar jump in corresponding FF image quality.

Personally I think the way to go would be for a APS-H camera to enable a crop mode similar to nikon with EF-S lenses giving a boosted FPS due to smaller file sizes
for example 8 FPS in APS-H mode and with an EF-S ens attached the image size is reduced automatically to fit the image circle and FPS increase to 10 FPS

Also important would be to not use the new 61pt AF and use the old 1D 45 pt AF including the f8 AF

this would be the best way to make a killer crop camera that can really hand it to the competition but more importantly fill several gaps appearing in canons line.

I still maintain there are only 3 EF-S lenses made by canon worth owning

 

[unfocused]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Just to add some fuel to the fire: I don't think we know what the quality of the new 18-135 STM lens is yet, so that might be Number Four.

Does make you wonder too, if Canon is considering changing formats, why they would be releasing their first affordable zoom for video in EF-S format?

I think I'm just going to surrender on the whole APS-H format discussion. It's become a religious issue for some people and no amount of logic or facts will shake their faith that APS-H will rise from the dead and walk the earth again.

 

[wickidwombat]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

Just to add some fuel to the fire: I don't think we know what the quality of the new 18-135 STM lens is yet, so that might be Number Four.

Does make you wonder too, if Canon is considering changing formats, why they would be releasing their first affordable zoom for video in EF-S format?

I think I'm just going to surrender on the whole APS-H format discussion. It's become a religious issue for some people and no amount of logic or facts will shake their faith that APS-H will rise from the dead and walk the earth again.

true about the 18-135 STM however looks like its going to be more of a video lens than for stills.

I am a self confessed shameless APS-H fanboi. I have no problem admitting that

APS-C crowd have their fair share of zealots too

I think alot of people that have never owned or used 1D bodies write APS-H off as a half way solution
they dont realise that those are actually where its strengths lie
everyone that use them know how much better they are than the on paper specs appear
ever used a 16-35 f2.8L II on an APS-H? it gives you 20-48mm effectively corner to corner sharp
and makes for the best walkaround lens around IMO (many other will agree)

 

[Richard8971]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

If the 70D steps back into having decent build quality and good features and regain the top level APS-C crown...

Your words, itallics and underline mine. That my friend is a BIG IF!!!

The downgrade of the XXD line (I.E. 60D... R.I.P. XXD line... ) and the upgrade of the Rebel line tells me that the XXD line will soon pass like the cassette tape and Beta video tape player. (Dodo bird, Dinosaurs... you get the idea) I mean come on, WHY would Canon make the T4i so close to the 60D in features if that wasn't the plan? That is one HUGE jump for the lowely "Rebel" line, really.

The XD (7D) body was meant to be a test bed for the features found in the 5DIII, 1DX and other future cameras and was DESIGNED AND MARKETED to be the flagship APS-C camera.

Now, tell me WHY Canon would "upgrade" a dying, "downgraded" XXD class body in favor of dropping it's current flagship XD line? (7D)

The 7D upgrade (7DII) WILL remain APS-C AND the flagship camera body, you can bank on it.

D

 

[Richard8971]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

And just for the record, I own BOTH FF and APS-C camera bodies. I love them both for what they can and cannot do. I mean come on, Canon WILL NOT make ONE camera for everyone, they can't!!! So, each camera body offers something that appeals to one shooter and not to another, for whatever reason.

There will ALWAYS be APS-C cameras and FF and whatever sensors... Not one is better than another, depending on your budget/shooting needs. Get over it.

D

 

[wickidwombat]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

If the 70D steps back into having decent build quality and good features and regain the top level APS-C crown...

Your words, itallics and underline mine. That my friend is a BIG IF!!!

The downgrade of the XXD line (I.E. 60D... R.I.P. XXD line... ) and the upgrade of the Rebel line tells me that the XXD line will soon pass like the cassette tape and Beta video tape player. (Dodo bird, Dinosaurs... you get the idea) I mean come on, WHY would Canon make the T4i so close to the 60D in features if that wasn't the plan? That is one HUGE jump for the lowely "Rebel" line, really.

The XD (7D) body was meant to be a test bed for the features found in the 5DIII, 1DX and other future cameras and was DESIGNED AND MARKETED to be the flagship APS-C camera.

Now, tell me WHY Canon would "upgrade" a dying, "downgraded" XXD class body in favor of dropping it's current flagship XD line? (7D)

The 7D upgrade (7DII) WILL remain APS-C, you can bank on it.

D

That pretty sound logic and I agree

(its nice to be able to have these discussions / arguements without it degenerating into name calling )

definately see room for only 2 APS-C bodies too

I think canon need to step up the game with the 70D to counter the nikon and sony offerings

I would be disapointed to see the use the same sensor from the 650D in the top line APS-C since it doesnt really look like much more than a rehash of the existing sensor (this is said without any real reviews being done at this date)

there is no reason they couldn't make the 70D the next 7D take the existing body maybe tweak the weathe sealing a bit and bugger up the image review zoom like they did on the 5Dmk3
give it dual card slots better AF (personally I would just bolt the 1Dmk4 AF straight in and call it done) better sensor say a new gapless microlens 22MP APS-C to further differentiate from the rebel.

this gives them the 80D and 90D for 2 more generations by which time the playing field will be vastly different with mirroless etc and the landscape changing alot

I really dont know what they will do with the 7D maybe keep it as an experimental proving ground?

I dont care what its called but I would like to see a high end APS-H sensor equiped camera that is a 5D form factor.

same goes for the king of crops be it a 70D or a 7Dmk2 it needs to substantially stand out from the rebels

 

[Richard8971]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

(its nice to be able to have these discussions / arguements without it degenerating into name calling )

Oh I agree. Part of the "rumors" thing is that I really don't know for sure, but it's fun to speculate.

D

 

[Richard8971]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

I dont care what its called but I would like to see a high end APS-H sensor equiped camera that is a 5D form factor.

I don't think the APS-H is "dead" as others would think. I would believe that Canon will produce a APS-H high performace camera body in the next year or so, based on the 120MP APS-H prototype sensor they made a year ago.

D

 

[wickidwombat]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

I dont care what its called but I would like to see a high end APS-H sensor equiped camera that is a 5D form factor.

I don't think the APS-H is "dead" as others would think. I would believe that Canon will produce a APS-H high performace camera body in the next year or so, based on the 120MP APS-H prototype sensor they made a year ago.

D

LOL wouldnt that be funny wait for all the MP junkies to have switched to nikon sold all their lovelly L glass then say "stuff it you know what lets just release this bad boy who cares if anything can actually resolve it"
mind you even with dual digic 5+ i would think 120MP APS-H would struggle to push out more than 2 fps if it was lucky, still landscapers would go gaga for it

 

[Chewngum]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

I dont care what its called but I would like to see a high end APS-H sensor equiped camera that is a 5D form factor.

I don't think the APS-H is "dead" as others would think. I would believe that Canon will produce a APS-H high performace camera body in the next year or so, based on the 120MP APS-H prototype sensor they made a year ago.

D

I sincerely doubt the 120MP sensor will be making into a DSLR, imagine the 200MB files with current computing power and storage speeds. I do think that APS-H is not coming back and hope that it doesn't. I would much prefer Canon put some real R&D into APS-C and produce something which even nearly matches what competitors have been offering for years, think Pentax K5 or Sony 16MP. APS-C would give the reach people are asking for in a pro body, pair it with the 1d4 AF and your set. Then it would retain f8 focusing for the people who like essentially using telescopes and given the right build would be a worthy filler for the wildlife and super-duper-telephoto photographers. Price it at $2500AUD $2100US 2000EURO and people will happily pay the premium for some pro-er features and it'll be king of the crops.

 

[Wild]

Re: Odds & Ends: 70D, 7D2, New Full Frame, D600 & Photoshop CS6

I dont care what its called but I would like to see a high end APS-H sensor equiped camera that is a 5D form factor.

I don't think the APS-H is "dead" as others would think. I would believe that Canon will produce a APS-H high performace camera body in the next year or so, based on the 120MP APS-H prototype sensor they made a year ago.

D

120 megapixels?! Those'd sell like hotcakes! Why aren't they selling those already???

In all seriousness though, I think the safest bet here is an upgraded 70d to the top of the line aps-c, and getting rid of the 7d line. Why? Because Canon won't just let Nikon steal all the thunder with an entry-level FF. And with an entry level FF at a similar price point to a 7dii, what's the point of the 7d line? (We know the point, but most consumers wouldn't) Why not just go back to the old days where xxD was top of the line aps-c?

Make the 70d a 7dii-equivalent, but price it a few hundred less than the FF entry level camera, and everybody is happy (including Canon since they won't have two cameras at the same price competing for sales).

Oh and if they do decide to release an entry-level full frame, my money is going to it being called a 6d ;D