So sayeth DXO: "The a7R II poops on the 5DS"

[Mitch.Conner]

While I don't really know what to think of dxo, and I don't want to get into a debate about them, is anyone really questioning that the a7rii has an amazing sensor?

No, I doubt it. But lets keep it in perspective, even if you embrace the DXO scores it is 1 point 'better' than the Nikon D810, DXO says 5 points equates to 1/3 stop of sensitivity, so this new amazing sensor is 1/15 stop better than we already have.

We are not game changing here, there is a very modest improvement over the MkI, 3 DXO points, or 1/5 stop, and a 16% increase in MP, or 12% more linear resolution.

I didn't mean that it was amazingly better than its predecessor, just that it is an impressive piece of tech. Amazing to me.

 

[Mitch.Conner]

I don't doubt that the new Sony sensor is probably one of the best available now, but it's like having a great engine in a car with a jerky gearbox and rough suspension.
It looks good on paper but you don't want to drive it much.

But hopefully other companies that know how to build cars well will buy that engine to put in their cars.

Or, alternatively, maybe other car companies will try to push their engine technology to try to keep up with the state of the art.

Did I take the analogy too far?

 

[Sporgon]

I don't doubt that the new Sony sensor is probably one of the best available now, but it's like having a great engine in a car with a jerky gearbox and rough suspension.
It looks good on paper but you don't want to drive it much.

But hopefully other companies that know how to build cars well will buy that engine to put in their cars.

Or, alternatively, maybe other car companies will try to push their engine technology to try to keep up with the state of the art.

Did I take the analogy too far?

They are: Pentax in November.

Seriously though, if anyone thinks this BLS Exmor is significantly better than the 50 MP Canon in practice they'd better enjoy digging deep into those niches. It's a little like a Canon user repeatedly demonstrating that their 50 MP sensor has slightly more detail.......

 

[3kramd5]

I don't doubt that the new Sony sensor is probably one of the best available now, but it's like having a great engine in a car with a jerky gearbox and rough suspension.
It looks good on paper but you don't want to drive it much.

But hopefully other companies that know how to build cars well will buy that engine to put in their cars.

Or, alternatively, maybe other car companies will try to push their engine technology to try to keep up with the state of the art.

Did I take the analogy too far?

They are: Pentax in November.

Is that more than rumored at this point? I read something about Pentax using the sensor in a $2000 camera, which would be impressive indeed. The sensor is likely the most expensive part of the A7R2. If a third party can offer than sensor packaged in a camera for $1,200 less, wow. Granted, maybe Sony's camera division ate ALL the development costs and Pentax is getting it at the production-amortized value, but that would be silly business.

Shrug.

 

[Sony]

Well, it's a good news. But the best news: tomorrow I will get a 5DS R, not a7R II, from B&H. Lol.

 

[privatebydesign]

...
They could not re-test a *single* lens before they got their a7R II review completed. One might expect they'd now withhold all Canon lens retesting until they have the Sony lenses retested as well. Classic DXO.
...

Why don't you start up your own company to do what DxO does and show us how it is done?

Maybe when you've got limited staff and new products continually rolling in the door, you too will get to make decisions about what gets tested and when. It will then be your choice as to how to prioritize what gets tested and published. Then we'll get to criticize you for not doing it in the order that we want and that you're biased because of that.

That aside, I expect that the lens test results will get updated on the web after DxO have test results integrated into an update for DxO Optics. DxO Optics is their product that people pay money for, the rankings and scoring is just a side show the Internet gets to consume for free.

That weak reply hardly mitigates the accurate comments about easily evidenced DXO anti Canon bias.

We all refer to DXO on occasions and it is interesting to see the corporate bias so clearly as is this case.

The test results are not just a "free side show" they are a key element to the DXO marketing strategy by keeping their company profile in the news and in peoples faces. As far as marketing budgets go it costs them next to nothing, presenting their good measurements that they need to take for their products (the expensive bit) and presenting them in some bullshit black box proprietary format biased against companies they haven't worked with (the cheap bit, both financially and ethically).

 

[ahsanford]

That aside, I expect that the lens test results will get updated on the web after DxO have test results integrated into an update for DxO Optics. DxO Optics is their product that people pay money for, the rankings and scoring is just a side show the Internet gets to consume for free.

Someone else on this forum who uses DxO optics stated that the 5DS / 5DS R profiles have already been updated -- not knowing the program, does that mean lens testing on those rigs have been completed? (I don't use that program so I don't know.)

I generally roll my eyes at DXO more than hate them, but their lens rankings (not the score) need to be thrown out. See attached -- that's misleading at best. Just report how lenses perform and be done with it. An overall lens ranking implies there is a standardized means to look at lenses across all mounts -- which, other than LR's OLAF rig -- doesn't exist to my knowledge.

So if you stick with DXO's zany scores & rankings, all EF mount glass should launch to the top of their rankings simply because there are now more pixels behind the lenses than the D810 can muster. I rather openly want to see DXO have to eat crow by stating that the 24-70L II or 70-200 f/2.8L IS II might be better than 835th and 1,096th best out there, respectively.

It's not about Canon pride or fanboyism -- it's about a comical course correction that must occur due to their absurd rankings. And one might argue they are withholding that course correction until lens testing on the A7R II is available to soften that blow.

I suppose they didn't see the need to report the lens testing so quickly -- the 5DS is only a semi-pro camera, after all -- who'd want to see lens testing on that silly toy?

- A

#dxo #fairandbalanced

 

[Sporgon]

I don't doubt that the new Sony sensor is probably one of the best available now, but it's like having a great engine in a car with a jerky gearbox and rough suspension.
It looks good on paper but you don't want to drive it much.

But hopefully other companies that know how to build cars well will buy that engine to put in their cars.

Or, alternatively, maybe other car companies will try to push their engine technology to try to keep up with the state of the art.

Did I take the analogy too far?

They are: Pentax in November.

Is that more than rumored at this point? I read something about Pentax using the sensor in a $2000 camera, which would be impressive indeed. The sensor is likely the most expensive part of the A7R2. If a third party can offer than sensor packaged in a camera for $1,200 less, wow. Granted, maybe Sony's camera division ate ALL the development costs and Pentax is getting it at the production-amortized value, but that would be silly business.

Shrug.

It is only a rumour regarding the FF Exmor R sensor being used. As is the £2000 price tag. However the Pentax FF is a cert after the launch of the new FF lenses.

I think they could produce one for a $2200 retail price. Would Sony want them to when theirs is $1000 more ? I expect to see the a7rII come down in price pretty quickly.

My forecast is that the new FF Pentax will be the best value FF dslr by far when it's launched - the addition of lenses not withstanding.

 

[KeithBreazeal]

I'll only put down my coffee and take notice when I see the Olympic and major sports photographers using Sony bodies with Canon glass.

 

[ahsanford]

It is only a rumour regarding the FF Exmor R sensor being used. As is the £2000 price tag. However the Pentax FF is a cert after the launch of the new FF lenses.

I think they could produce one for a $2200 retail price. Would Sony want them to when theirs is $1000 more ? I expect to see the a7rII come down in price pretty quickly.

My forecast is that the new FF Pentax will be the best value FF dslr by far when it's launched - the addition of lenses not withstanding.

People will lose it if a Pentax FF SLR comes out because it's Pentax. They've always been ahead of the curve on no AA, weathersealing, shockproofing, etc.

The problem is that it will have to almost be sold for a loss to get people hooked, wouldn't they? Pentax doesn't have much on the FF glass front, I thought. (Or do they have older film FF glass that they can use? I don't know much about them.) If they lack an FF lens portfolio, their value proposition will be painfully similar to the first Sony A7 models and they'll have to slash price for the first few generations until they amass more glass.

- A

 

[bedford]

Seriously though, if anyone thinks this BLS Exmor is significantly better than the 50 MP Canon in practice they'd better enjoy digging deep into those niches. It's a little like a Canon user repeatedly demonstrating that their 50 MP sensor has slightly more detail.......

I think overall, in photographical relevant terms the Sony Exmor sensor is about 1 stop better in low-iso dynamic range and less than 1 stop better in noise. For me hardly a reason to consider switching systems anymore (hoping this difference will also be true for the 5D IV and 6D II).

Personallly I'm currently looking more at the cost when switching to FF. And regarding the large choice of lenses for Canon (incl. Sigma and Tamron) I think Canon is probably still the best investment.

Regards,
Oliver

 

[Perio]

Who cares?

 

[sdsr]

People will lose it if a Pentax FF SLR comes out because it's Pentax. They've always been ahead of the curve on no AA, weathersealing, shockproofing, etc.

The problem is that it will have to almost be sold for a loss to get people hooked, wouldn't they? Pentax doesn't have much on the FF glass front, I thought. (Or do they have older film FF glass that they can use? I don't know much about them.) If they lack an FF lens portfolio, their value proposition will be painfully similar to the first Sony A7 models and they'll have to slash price for the first few generations until they amass more glass.

- A

There's a huge array of vintage Pentax/Takumar lenses that could be used, many of them without an adapter and many of them very impressive, but most of them are MF, which is rather a pain on a dslr, so their appeal would likely be limited (unless the forthcoming FF body has an EVF, which would make a huge difference in that regard; I have several and use them on Sony a7 bodies, which, like other mirrorless/EVF bodies make MF easy). Some current Pentax AF lenses are old enough that they were designed for FF, but they all use slow noisy screw AF. In fact, AF hasn't been a Pentax strong-point; I've not kept up with their more recent bodies but when I switched from their then-top-of-the-line body (K5) to a 5DII (!) a few years ago I was shocked by the superiority of Canon AF in terms of speed and accuracy. Even if the new camera has better AF accuracy, they're going to lag seriously in terms of AF speed as far as many/most of their AF lenses are concerned. Those who think the mark of a good camera is its usefulness at Olympics will likely want to hold off....

 

[benperrin]

Having used both the 5ds and owning the a7r2 I have to say that I'm bemused as to how they arrive at such conclusions. I'll say this with full disclosure; I haven't taken the a7r2 out on a proper shoot yet just tests around the house. Getting used to the mirrorless has been a challenge. The a7r2 just isn't as fast as the 5ds nor is it as reliable. Now I know that the system isn't being tested but the sensor itself. Downsampling everything to 8mp clearly disadvantages the 50mp sensor. My own real world experience shows that the 5ds files are beautiful in real life and noise wasn't a factor in my experience (I rarely leave iso100 for landscape work) even though I was at times pushing the shadows.

My conclusion in my first week of owning the a7r2 is that it definitely isn't the perfect camera like people have been saying. It is a great camera that is very capable but mirrorless has far too many flaws right now to be a better camera than the current DSLR kings. My other conclusion is to never trust test charts or companies like dxomark. Real life experience will always trump them.

 

[3kramd5]

I think they could produce one for a $2200 retail price. Would Sony want them to when theirs is $1000 more ? I expect to see the a7rII come down in price pretty quickly.

Unless Pentax is selling them as a loss-leader to get people to buy into their system.

 

[3kramd5]

Downsampling everything to 8mp clearly disadvantages the 50mp sensor.

Actually, it is advantageous to the higher res sensor, in that it improves via noise-reducing averaging the dynamic range, which is the big ticket item.

 

[ahsanford]

Downsampling everything to 8mp clearly disadvantages the 50mp sensor.

Actually, it is advantageous to the higher res sensor, in that it improves via noise-reducing averaging the dynamic range, which is the big ticket item.

+1. Bryan Carnathan's unabashed hard sell of the 5DS was that noise what just as good as a 5D3 when you downsample those 50 MP shots to the 5D3's native resolution.

In other words, the 5DS is a beast in the studio on or on a tripod, but if are working in low light, fear not: it's just as good as a 5D3 noisewise in high ISO, but you lose the 5DS's high res output to pull that off.

(At least that's how I read his take on the 5DS.)

- A

 

[benperrin]

Downsampling everything to 8mp clearly disadvantages the 50mp sensor.

Actually, it is advantageous to the higher res sensor, in that it improves via noise-reducing averaging the dynamic range, which is the big ticket item.

Yes, it helps in terms of noise reduction for the sake of charts but even if there is slightly more noise in a 50mp file based on a per pixel level the extra detail of the 50mp opens new possibilities such as being able to push noise reduction further. It is a personal preference but I wouldn't consider something like an a7s due to the low (relatively) resolution of the sensor compared to the 5ds. There is an advantage in the real world that the resolution brings that is lost when downsampled to 8mp. Now for plenty of people the a7s has more than enough resolution which is great but to dismiss a 50mp camera based on dxomarks methods is ludicrous at best. Having said that most people probably don't need or want 50mp at this time.

 

[Aglet]

People will lose it if a Pentax FF SLR comes out because it's Pentax. They've always been ahead of the curve on no AA, weathersealing, shockproofing, etc.

The problem is that it will have to almost be sold for a loss to get people hooked, wouldn't they? Pentax doesn't have much on the FF glass front, I thought. (Or do they have older film FF glass that they can use? I don't know much about them.) If they lack an FF lens portfolio, their value proposition will be painfully similar to the first Sony A7 models and they'll have to slash price for the first few generations until they amass more glass.

- A

There's a huge array of vintage Pentax/Takumar lenses that could be used, many of them without an adapter and many of them very impressive, but most of them are MF, which is rather a pain on a dslr, so their appeal would likely be limited (unless the forthcoming FF body has an EVF, which would make a huge difference in that regard; I have several and use them on Sony a7 bodies, which, like other mirrorless/EVF bodies make MF easy). Some current Pentax AF lenses are old enough that they were designed for FF, but they all use slow noisy screw AF. In fact, AF hasn't been a Pentax strong-point; I've not kept up with their more recent bodies but when I switched from their then-top-of-the-line body (K5) to a 5DII (!) a few years ago I was shocked by the superiority of Canon AF in terms of speed and accuracy. Even if the new camera has better AF accuracy, they're going to lag seriously in terms of AF speed as far as many/most of their AF lenses are concerned. Those who think the mark of a good camera is its usefulness at Olympics will likely want to hold off....

I think Pentax has about 9 lenses in their current catalog that are FF compatible, most being old film era primes.

you can see them here:

http://ricoh-imaging.ca/en/products/lenses/

The the D FA series, for digital-optimized
and the FA & FA Limited series (but not FA 645)

I hope they also enable a crop mode to use the DA (crop) series glass too.
BUT, if you're a real Pentaxian, you've been collecting old FF film era glass for the past few years so you'll have something to use on the new FF Pentax body when it arrives.

 

[jrista]

Re: Sony A7R II scores 98, new king of DxO Mark (by a nose)

How has this not been posted yet? Forgive and delete if it has:


http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Sony/A7R-II


Nikon D810 has slightly more DR, not as good at high ISO.

The D810 has about a stop more DR than the A7R-II at the lowest ISOs (64/32), which is actually pretty amazing. Remember, dynamic range is powers of two. They also somehow eeked more FWC out of the same 36.3mp sensor. Not sure how they did that.



No one should be surprised that the Sony scores better than the 5Ds. Until Canon reduces their read noise, that will always be the case. That said, the 5Ds does have better noise characteristics, and in a couple tests I did, it definitely supported a bit more shadow pushing than any prior Canon camera. It still had the classic Canon color blotch, but it was a bit more neutral-colored, rather than heavily red. I did not see any banding either. I thought that was nice.

If I was doing landscape photography, I still wouldn't pick a Canon camera, but the 5Ds should perform well for most things.