SONY A99 ii VS Canon 5div

[romanr74]

The relevant point here is if i buy a camera now, will i be excited about this - or let down by it - either immediately or x weeks/months after, and how will this translate into my next purchase decision.

Now, put that in context of the fact that Canon has dominated the ILC market for >13 years, and that Canon was #3 in the MILC segment last year and is likely to move into #2 this year. It would seem a lot more people continue to be excited by Canon products...

I could have ghostwritten that reply for you to be honest. I am fascinated how in every second post you praise Canon over Sony, where I'm trying to make the general point that current sales is not a perfect indicator for customer satisfaction and hence furure sales.

Current and historical sales certainly do affect future purchases...not a perfect indicator, as you state, but a strong one. That's not true for all product classes, but for ILCs, system 'buy-in' is a key factor in future purchase decisions.

Seems you are having trouble distinguishing between praise and statement of fact. Praise: Canon is better than Sony. Fact: Canon has sold more ILCs than Sony or any other manufacturer for well over a decade. Which one sounds more like my statements?

to me you sound like a sheer fanboy. everytime there is remote criticism or other brand praise you pull the "canon is selling more cameras than sony" card. to me this sometimes just sounds like self-confirmation that one is betting on the right horse. this is fine with me, since i have my own way of making my mind.

 

[pokerz]

The relevant point here is if i buy a camera now, will i be excited about this - or let down by it - either immediately or x weeks/months after, and how will this translate into my next purchase decision.

Now, put that in context of the fact that Canon has dominated the ILC market for >13 years, and that Canon was #3 in the MILC segment last year and is likely to move into #2 this year. It would seem a lot more people continue to be excited by Canon products...

I could have ghostwritten that reply for you to be honest. I am fascinated how in every second post you praise Canon over Sony, where I'm trying to make the general point that current sales is not a perfect indicator for customer satisfaction and hence furure sales.

Current and historical sales certainly do affect future purchases...not a perfect indicator, as you state, but a strong one. That's not true for all product classes, but for ILCs, system 'buy-in' is a key factor in future purchase decisions.

Seems you are having trouble distinguishing between praise and statement of fact. Praise: Canon is better than Sony. Fact: Canon has sold more ILCs than Sony or any other manufacturer for well over a decade. Which one sounds more like my statements?

to me you sound like a sheer fanboy. everytime there is remote criticism or other brand praise you pull the "canon is selling more cameras than sony" card. to me this sometimes just sounds like self-confirmation that one is betting on the right horse. this is fine with me, since i have my own way of making my mind.

Excalty, and if Canon is really that good, why android and iphone dont use canon lens or sensors? The answer is simple.

8)

 

[Loswr]

to me you sound like a sheer fanboy. everytime there is remote criticism or other brand praise you pull the "canon is selling more cameras than sony" card. to me this sometimes just sounds like self-confirmation that one is betting on the right horse. this is fine with me, since i have my own way of making my mind.

You are, of course, welcome to your own opinion. To me, it's interjecting some real-world facts and objective data in the face of the often ridiculous assertions made on these forums, e.g. the one that started this thread: "5div killer? ...did Canon just get blown out of the water?" When Sony started using on-die ADCs (6 years ago?) and Nikon started buying Sony sensors, DxO scores started to separate and people claimed that the 'better IQ' of SoNikon (there's that subjectivity again) was a looming disaster for Canon. So, where are we now, 6 years later? Right where we were then, with Canon leading the ILC market.

As for the 'canon is selling more cameras than sony' card, when comparing brands on anything but the level of individual, personal preference, that's the only card that really matters. Conversely, when comparing on the level of individual preference, that card is essentially irrelevant. But, you cannot compare individual preferences objectively since they by are, by definition, unique to individuals. Thus, it's meaningful to look at sales data as an aggregate measure of individuals' buying choices.

 

[turtle]

I agree with much of this; however, Canon has immense market momentum and brand reputation (and great marketing) that can generate sales long after the products have waned. I am not suggesting that Canon products have waned entirely, but I am suggesting that sales today are not necessarily an indication of the future health of any company. Just look at Mercedes 15 years ago! They had a decade of awful build quality and frankly ugly designs. It took time, but consumer confidence in the brand did slowly erode and they had to work hard to rectify matters. I don't think Canon is in quite the same position, but I do think the relative lack of innovation will end up hurting them if they cannot start knocking it out of the park again. The EOS M5 looks like a fair crack at reinvigorating the EOS M line, but it isnt cheap and the competition is fierce. Too little too late? We'll see and I dont pretend to know.

Canon's can now manufacture its own top quality sensors that are up to today's best standards and that's a great position to be in. It also means we get healthy competition to the Sony sensor monopoly.

....

You are, of course, welcome to your own opinion. To me, it's interjecting some real-world facts and objective data in the face of the often ridiculous assertions made on these forums, e.g. the one that started this thread: "5div killer? ...did Canon just get blown out of the water?" When Sony started using on-die ADCs (6 years ago?) and Nikon started buying Sony sensors, DxO scores started to separate and people claimed that the 'better IQ' of SoNikon (there's that subjectivity again) was a looming disaster for Canon. So, where are we now, 6 years later? Right where we were then, with Canon leading the ILC market.

As for the 'canon is selling more cameras than sony' card, when comparing brands on anything but the level of individual, personal preference, that's the only card that really matters. Conversely, when comparing on the level of individual preference, that card is essentially irrelevant. But, you cannot compare individual preferences objectively since they by are, by definition, unique to individuals. Thus, it's meaningful to look at sales data as an aggregate measure of individuals' buying choices.

 

[romanr74]

As for the 'canon is selling more cameras than sony' card, when comparing brands on anything but the level of individual, personal preference, that's the only card that really matters. Conversely, when comparing on the level of individual preference, that card is essentially irrelevant. But, you cannot compare individual preferences objectively since they by are, by definition, unique to individuals. Thus, it's meaningful to look at sales data as an aggregate measure of individuals' buying choices.

I guess I understand where you're trying to go. I however don't think the sales numbers are a relevant figure when people try to compare products to each other from a technical point of view. History has proven often enough that it is not the technically "best" product that wins in the market place but that many other parameters decide over market success. So it might very well be that other manufacturers camera bodies currently have an edge over Canon's but that other circumstances still lead to Canon selling more bodies. In such situation it is valid to "criticize" or dislike parameters of Canon's offering. And the sales numbers do not make these "technical facts" go away. Hence I think the "Canon still sells more thus is right" argument doesn't really do the trick...

 

[Loswr]

I don't think Canon is in quite the same position, but I do think the relative lack of innovation will end up hurting them if they cannot start knocking it out of the park again.

Tell me about this 'relative lack of innovation'. How do you define that? Is DPAF not innovative? Dual-pixel RAW with the ability to correct (minor) focus issues and adjust the appearance of bokeh in post...not innovative? Adding IR data into the metering sensor to help with scene analysis...no innovation there? Sony's new wireless flash system that copies what Canon released four years ago...is that Sony innovation?

It seems that you're defining innovation as 'things I personally like or want to see,' and that's highly subjective. Moreover, while it may not be 'innovative' to make well-designed, robust products and service them quickly and efficiently when they break, that sort of thing does help sell cameras.

 

[Loswr]

As for the 'canon is selling more cameras than sony' card, when comparing brands on anything but the level of individual, personal preference, that's the only card that really matters. Conversely, when comparing on the level of individual preference, that card is essentially irrelevant. But, you cannot compare individual preferences objectively since they by are, by definition, unique to individuals. Thus, it's meaningful to look at sales data as an aggregate measure of individuals' buying choices.

I guess I understand where you're trying to go. I however don't think the sales numbers are a relevant figure when people try to compare products to each other from a technical point of view. History has proven often enough that it is not the technically "best" product that wins in the market place but that many other parameters decide over market success. So it might very well be that other manufacturers camera bodies currently have an edge over Canon's but that other circumstances still lead to Canon selling more bodies. In such situation it is valid to "criticize" or dislike parameters of Canon's offering. And the sales numbers do not make these "technical facts" go away. Hence I think the "Canon still sells more thus is right" argument doesn't really do the trick...

We're saying the same thing. I am not contending that the fact that Canon sells more cameras means those cameras are 'better', it just means that more people choose to buy them becuase those cameras meet their own needs better than the alternatives. As pointed out above, some people may choose a 5DIV over an a7DII or a99II because 40+ MP is too high. For them, a lower MP count is technically better. Maybe you feel differently, maybe not...the point is, that's individual decision with no objective measure.

It's always valid to criticize Canon – or any manufacturer – if you dislike their offering(s) or their features. The problem is when people take their own personal dislike as evidence that Canon as a brand is somehow in trouble.

 

[romanr74]

As for the 'canon is selling more cameras than sony' card, when comparing brands on anything but the level of individual, personal preference, that's the only card that really matters. Conversely, when comparing on the level of individual preference, that card is essentially irrelevant. But, you cannot compare individual preferences objectively since they by are, by definition, unique to individuals. Thus, it's meaningful to look at sales data as an aggregate measure of individuals' buying choices.

I guess I understand where you're trying to go. I however don't think the sales numbers are a relevant figure when people try to compare products to each other from a technical point of view. History has proven often enough that it is not the technically "best" product that wins in the market place but that many other parameters decide over market success. So it might very well be that other manufacturers camera bodies currently have an edge over Canon's but that other circumstances still lead to Canon selling more bodies. In such situation it is valid to "criticize" or dislike parameters of Canon's offering. And the sales numbers do not make these "technical facts" go away. Hence I think the "Canon still sells more thus is right" argument doesn't really do the trick...

We're saying the same thing. I am not contending that the fact that Canon sells more cameras means those cameras are 'better', it just means that more people choose to buy them becuase those cameras meet their own needs better than the alternatives. As pointed out above, some people may choose a 5DIV over an a7DII or a99II because 40+ MP is too high. For them, a lower MP count is technically better. Maybe you feel differently, maybe not...the point is, that's individual decision with no objective measure.

It's always valid to criticize Canon – or any manufacturer – if you dislike their offering(s) or their features. The problem is when people take their own personal dislike as evidence that Canon as a brand is somehow in trouble.

I dislike the "Canon is doomed" prayers as much as you do. Let's leave them out of this discussion. They are not the point.

There is a difference, however, between Canon's capability of maximizing their business economically (which is their primary target, and rightly so) vs. if their products are (perceived as) maxing what's technically possible in an attempt to put a leading edge latest and greatest product in customers hands. There is a widespread feeling that Canon doesn't need to provide to their customers what they technically could to reach the economic targets. Economically this might even be a necessity to prevent cannibalization within the own product range. And there is also benefits from that for instance when it comes to reliability.

However there are sometimes features which feel crippled and where same price point competitor products are by objective measure superior. These cases should not be played down to "personal dislike".

 

[Loswr]

There is a difference, however, between Canon's capability of maximizing their business economically (which is their primary target, and rightly so) vs. if their products are (perceived as) maxing what's technically possible in an attempt to put a leading edge latest and greatest product in customers hands.

Nice strawman. Who is arguing that Canon is or even should be attempting to maximize 'what's technically possible in an attempt to put a leading edge latest and greatest product in customers hands'? Sure, technogeeks love that stuff, DPR gobbles it up like candy. But for many photographers, a robust and reliable system is what matters. By some objective measures, Sony is lagging on that front.

There is a widespread feeling that Canon doesn't need to provide to their customers what they technically could to reach the economic targets.

A 'widespread feeling'? "Me and some people on the Internet think this?" Wow, that's not exactly definitive evidence, is it? Still, it's quite reasonable...techincally, Canon could charge only a little more for a 7DII than for a T6i, the production costs likely aren't too different...or heck, Canon could just put all the 7DII features into the T7i. Why not? It's technically feasible.

These are business decisions, and treated as such. Other companies make different business decisions, and certainly a company's position in the market (leader vs. #3, for example) affects the factors influencing those business decisions.

However there are sometimes features which feel crippled and where same price point competitor products are by objective measure superior. These cases should not be played down to "personal dislike".

Perhaps.

Is it objectively superior to offer 4K video, when the implementation causes overheating? Is it objectively superior to offer a choice between lossy RAW compression and uncompressed RAW with the concomitant hit against buffer depth?

One could argue that 42 MP is objectively superior to 30 MP, but there are trade-offs for that, e.g. image storage and processing hardware requirements. One could argue that a dedicated PDAF sensor with 79 AF points is objectively superior to one with 61 AF points, if one is willing to ignore the geometry (line vs. cross) and accuracy (f/2.8 vs. f/5.6 baseline) of those AF points. So, I think you need to be careful how you define 'objective measures'.

Moreover, in general, features are not free – there's a cost to developing and testing them, even for 'firmware-only' features.

 

[zim]

Does anybody know the percentage of Canon sales being done in the US, Japan and England versus the rest of the world?

England? or by US do you mean Texas?

 

[romanr74]

Neuro, I dont know what it is, but something keeps your brain from even considering that Canon is not always on the perfect sweet spot with their decisios and choices - and there is an impressive fixation on Sony (coming thrugh in every second post even when not mentioned or related to by the peer in the discussion).

 

[Loswr]

Neuro, I dont know what it is, but something keeps your brain from even considering that Canon is not always on the perfect sweet spot with their decisios and choices - and there is an impressive fixation on Sony (coming thrugh in every second post even when not mentioned or related to by the peer in the discussion).

That's an overinterpretation at best, closer to an outright misrepresentation. As for repeated mentions of Sony, glance up at the topic title and try to let your brain acknowledge the attempt to keep somewhat on topic.

 

[romanr74]

Neuro, I dont know what it is, but something keeps your brain from even considering that Canon is not always on the perfect sweet spot with their decisios and choices - and there is an impressive fixation on Sony (coming thrugh in every second post even when not mentioned or related to by the peer in the discussion).

That's an overinterpretation at best, closer to an outright misrepresentation. As for repeated mentions of Sony, glance up at the topic title and try to let your brain acknowledge the attempt to keep somewhat on topic.

amen

 

[xps]

Positive: The AF system looks like taken from an (I do think you call that so) ego-shooter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrcpJLjpVjU


But impressive fast and silent shutter.

 

[xps]

As I am "family-biased" we met some Sony salesmen after Photokina in the evening.
The are really happy with their A99II, as they thought the A-mount would have been dead too.
They think that in some month the A9 will follow. About the price of the Pro models of Canon/Nikon, but with the same resolution as the A7Rii and with about 1-5fps and an superfast and wider AF system. Packed full with the newest inventions. Let us wait, if this will be just hot air, or will cme true.

 

[scyrene]

The relevant point here is if i buy a camera now, will i be excited about this - or let down by it - either immediately or x weeks/months after, and how will this translate into my next purchase decision.

Now, put that in context of the fact that Canon has dominated the ILC market for >13 years, and that Canon was #3 in the MILC segment last year and is likely to move into #2 this year. It would seem a lot more people continue to be excited by Canon products...

I could have ghostwritten that reply for you to be honest. I am fascinated how in every second post you praise Canon over Sony, where I'm trying to make the general point that current sales is not a perfect indicator for customer satisfaction and hence furure sales.

Are you suggesting buzz/excitement is a better indicator of future sales than past sales?

 

[xps]

Oh, and I was listening interested about their rumors. But I think, I cornerd them, when I asked, when they will open the first pro-service-center here in Germany.

 

[3kramd5]

As I am "family-biased" we met some Sony salesmen after Photokina in the evening.
The are really happy with their A99II, as they thought the A-mount would have been dead too.
They think that in some month the A9 will follow. About the price of the Pro models of Canon/Nikon, but with the same resolution as the A7Rii and with about 1-5fps and an superfast and wider AF system. Packed full with the newest inventions. Let us wait, if this will be just hot air, or will cme true.

1-5fps would be silly, especially if the sensor readout is fast enough for 12.

 

[deadwrong]

As I am "family-biased" we met some Sony salesmen after Photokina in the evening.
The are really happy with their A99II, as they thought the A-mount would have been dead too.
They think that in some month the A9 will follow. About the price of the Pro models of Canon/Nikon, but with the same resolution as the A7Rii and with about 1-5fps and an superfast and wider AF system. Packed full with the newest inventions. Let us wait, if this will be just hot air, or will cme true.

1-5fps would be silly, especially if the sensor readout is fast enough for 12.

Kinda wonder if he typoed and meant 15.

 

[3kramd5]

As I am "family-biased" we met some Sony salesmen after Photokina in the evening.
The are really happy with their A99II, as they thought the A-mount would have been dead too.
They think that in some month the A9 will follow. About the price of the Pro models of Canon/Nikon, but with the same resolution as the A7Rii and with about 1-5fps and an superfast and wider AF system. Packed full with the newest inventions. Let us wait, if this will be just hot air, or will cme true.

1-5fps would be silly, especially if the sensor readout is fast enough for 12.

Kinda wonder if he typoed and meant 15.

Or 1-5 FPS faster than a7rii.

Clearly erroneous.