Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

[jeffa4444]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

Leveraging economies of scale is the biggest reason to shift the 5DS/5DSr onto the 5D MKIV platform. A refined 50MP sensor i.e. better low light, and the expanded AF plus Wi-Fi in a slightly lighter package are all the refinement they would need to make as many of the features in the 5D MKIV appeared in the 5DS/5DSr such as the new mirror assembly, metering system, intervalomer etc.

The 5DS is a great camera if used for what it was intended for, its not a 5D MKIV and the two can coexist.

 

[GMCPhotographics]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

I'm guessing that within two more 5D generations, the 5D and 5DSR line will be unified back into a single camera again. I'm guessing that the standard 5D will have around 50+ mp by then and there will be little need for a 2nd 5D variant.

Remember the 120Mpx APS-H prototype? When the 5dm5 becomes 50Mpx, the "S" will have 120+ most likely Even today nothing prevents them to scale the 80D's 24Mpx 1.6x APS-C to FF so it'll be around 61Mpx.

Yes, I'm aware of that sensor resolution, but one has to ask if the extra MP actually do anything worth while? There has to be a tipping point in sensor resolution and a number of optimum quality.

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

Yes, I'm aware of that sensor resolution, but one has to ask if the extra MP actually do anything worth while? There has to be a tipping point in sensor resolution and a number of optimum quality.

Every detail obsessed, pixel-peeping landscaper just shrieked in horror at what you just posted. They feel the same way about giving up any detail at all for fps reasons. If a 100 MP rig @ 1 fps was offered, they'd sell their car to get it on day one.

- A

 

[Maiaibing]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

Every detail obsessed, pixel-peeping landscaper just shrieked in horror at what you just posted. They feel the same way about giving up any detail at all for fps reasons. If a 100 MP rig @ 1 fps was offered, they'd sell their car to get it on day one.

- A

Problems, problems. Well to me it sounds like a great solution;
I'll get the 120 MPIX Canon day one for sure. I can keep a car if and as needed. And I'll have no need to pixel peep, as increased detail is visible for the observant viewer even at smaller sizes and less than 100%. Don't do landscapes BTW. Shooting speed is likely to be 5 fps - amply enough for most anything.

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

Every detail obsessed, pixel-peeping landscaper just shrieked in horror at what you just posted. They feel the same way about giving up any detail at all for fps reasons. If a 100 MP rig @ 1 fps was offered, they'd sell their car to get it on day one.

- A

Problems, problems. Well to me it sounds like a great solution;
I'll get it the 120 MPIX Canon day one for sure. I can keep a car if and as needed. And I'll have no need to pixel peep, as increased detail is visible for the observant viewer even at smaller sizes and less than 100%. Don't do landscapes BTW. Shooting speed is likely to be 5 fps - amply enough for most anything.

5 fps x 120 MP = 2x the throughput of a $6,000 1DX2. That's not happening anytime soon.

- A

 

[rrcphoto]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

Seems odd to argue the resolution when canon already pretty much stated it was coming, and have shown it the last year in a 5D sized body.

the question is .. can they fit it into a 5D sized body with 3 processors?

or will they keep the 5Ds current AF system and upgrade to dual DiGiC 7 to handle the performance.

 

[Maiaibing]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

Every detail obsessed, pixel-peeping landscaper just shrieked in horror at what you just posted. They feel the same way about giving up any detail at all for fps reasons. If a 100 MP rig @ 1 fps was offered, they'd sell their car to get it on day one.

- A

Problems, problems. Well to me it sounds like a great solution;
I'll get it the 120 MPIX Canon day one for sure. I can keep a car if and as needed. And I'll have no need to pixel peep, as increased detail is visible for the observant viewer even at smaller sizes and less than 100%. Don't do landscapes BTW. Shooting speed is likely to be 5 fps - amply enough for most anything.

5 fps x 120 MP = 2x the throughput of a $6,000 1DX2. That's not happening anytime soon.

- A

Probably not. Neither is the 120 MPIX 5DS/RII. But in 4-5-6 years its probably happening.

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

Seems odd to argue the resolution when canon already pretty much stated it was coming, and have shown it the last year in a 5D sized body.

the question is .. can they fit it into a 5D sized body with 3 processors?

or will they keep the 5Ds current AF system and upgrade to dual DiGiC 7 to handle the performance.

One more time, with feeling and pictures and a distant hope that we'll all be reasonable here.

Not happening. Also note that all prior 'top throughput rigs' for each year are 1D rigs. I highly highly highly doubt a future 5DS2 (or whatever they call it) will get that spectacular a jump in throughput anytime in the next 3-5 years. It's one thing for a 5DS to arbitrarily get more throughput than a (later to market!) 5D4, but it's another entirely for a 5DS2 to push more data than a $6k flagship offering. Not happening anytime soon.

- A

 

[LordofTackle]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

One more time, with feeling and pictures and a distant hope that we'll all be reasonable here.

Not happening. Also note that all prior 'top throughput rigs' for each year are 1D rigs. I highly highly highly doubt a future 5DS2 (or whatever they call it) will get that spectacular a jump in throughput anytime in the next 3-5 years. It's one thing for a 5DS to arbitrarily get more throughput than a (later to market!) 5D4, but it's another entirely for a 5DS2 to push more data than a $6k flagship offering. Not happening anytime soon.

- A

I don't see why they would exclude each other. They serve completely different purposes. It's not only the faster processing powert that makes the 1DxII so much more expensive, it's also the tougher build, the better mechanics for mirror and shutter, etc etc.

I see a completely different problem with a 5fps 120mpx 5DS II: it's already pretty difficult to makes use of the high resolution of the 5Ds if you are not really careful with your technique (or use a tripod anyway). I guess 5fps with 120mpx would potentiate these problems massively and thus make the the 5fps completely unusable....

just my 2c
Sebastian

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

I see a completely different problem with a 5fps 120mpx 5DS II: it's already pretty difficult to makes use of the high resolution of the 5Ds if you are not really careful with your technique (or use a tripod anyway). I guess 5fps with 120mpx would potentiate these problems massively and thus make the the 5fps completely unusable....

just my 2c
Sebastian

The idea that handholding a camera at very high resolution camera eventually is not handholdable is not entirely true. You just need some combination of a bright scene or a high ISO to get the shutter speed fast enough to overcome the risk of movement effecting your shot, right?

But your point is (directionally) correct. Mo pixels, mo problems. If the 5DS changed the rules on 1/focal length minimum shutter speeds, a 120 MP would change it even further.

- A

 

[LordofTackle]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

The idea that handholding a camera at very high resolution camera eventually is not handholdable is not entirely true. You just need some combination of a bright scene or a high ISO to get the shutter speed fast enough to overcome the risk of movement effecting your shot, right?

Right, I just remember several forum members saying that they need to be extra careful and that 1/focal length doesn't do it at all. So I guess you can run into problems pretty fast if you don't take extra care.

if you shoot 5fps at 120mpx those problems will get even worse I guess (not only your movements you have to control, but also all the movement in the camera). OTOH, if you fire of several shots, you might get a sharp one

(I can already hear AvTvM cry for the mirrorless FF to get rid of the moving parts )

Sebastian

 

[Mikehit]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

Right, I just remember several forum members saying that they need to be extra careful and that 1/focal length doesn't do it at all. So I guess you can run into problems pretty fast if you don't take extra care.

if you shoot 5fps at 120mpx those problems will get even worse I guess (not only your movements you have to control, but also all the movement in the camera). OTOH, if you fire of several shots, you might get a sharp one

(I can already hear AvTvM cry for the mirrorless FF to get rid of the moving parts )

Sebastian

No, you don't run into problems
If the camera shake is just low enough that it is not noticeable on a 30MP camera at a given viewing size/distance, then using a 120MP camera will not make the shake noticable. What will happen is that the 120MP has no more resolution than the 30MP because it is effectively downgraded by the camera shake.
But if you control the camera shake the 120MP will show more detail.

 

[tron]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

The idea that handholding a camera at very high resolution camera eventually is not handholdable is not entirely true. You just need some combination of a bright scene or a high ISO to get the shutter speed fast enough to overcome the risk of movement effecting your shot, right?

Right, I just remember several forum members saying that they need to be extra careful and that 1/focal length doesn't do it at all. So I guess you can run into problems pretty fast if you don't take extra care.

if you shoot 5fps at 120mpx those problems will get even worse I guess (not only your movements you have to control, but also all the movement in the camera). OTOH, if you fire of several shots, you might get a sharp one

(I can already hear AvTvM cry for the mirrorless FF to get rid of the moving parts )

Sebastian

I do not care at all for mirrorless. But to tell the truth a global shutter would help in very high resolution. It was mentioned that in that case we need tripods. High speed shooting does not help because above flash sync speed (1/200, 1/250) it is being simulated by the moving blades. With small pixels (or smaller microlenses if you will) movement would show easier even with high speed.

 

[tron]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

As far as what I wish to see on a 5DsR MkII:

1. Almost (if not) the same number of pixels with improvements in high iso and DR.
2. A higher fps say 7 fps with increased buffer.
3. The AF system of 5DMkIV

That's all

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

I do not care at all for mirrorless. But to tell the truth a global shutter would help in very high resolution. It was mentioned that in that case we need tripods. High speed shooting does not help because above flash sync speed (1/200, 1/250) it is being simulated by the moving blades. With small pixels (or smaller microlenses if you will) movement would show easier even with high speed.

Oh sure, if you're shooting with flash you are SOL with these super high res rigs: too slow and you get motion ruining the detail and too fast you have to use HSS.

...our you have to tripod up for portraiture. Ouch.

- A

 

[privatebydesign]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

I do not care at all for mirrorless. But to tell the truth a global shutter would help in very high resolution. It was mentioned that in that case we need tripods. High speed shooting does not help because above flash sync speed (1/200, 1/250) it is being simulated by the moving blades. With small pixels (or smaller microlenses if you will) movement would show easier even with high speed.

Oh sure, if you're shooting with flash you are SOL with these super high res rigs: too slow and you get motion ruining the detail and too fast you have to use HSS.

...our you have to tripod up for portraiture. Ouch.

- A

Good gracious, what a complete load of garbage!

 

[tron]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

...
...our you have to tripod up for portraiture. Ouch.

- A

And use tripod for landscapes too. No real problem with that. Or they could hopefully not increase the megapixels more than what they are now in 5DsR. I believe they are more than enough both for landscapes and birding...

Good gracious, what a complete load of garbage!

Care to explain?

EDIT: @both: Also read my post that is last in the previous page. Not caring for an increase in mpix so probably all these do not apply that much...

 

[Fleetie]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

I do not care at all for mirrorless. But to tell the truth a global shutter would help in very high resolution. It was mentioned that in that case we need tripods. High speed shooting does not help because above flash sync speed (1/200, 1/250) it is being simulated by the moving blades. With small pixels (or smaller microlenses if you will) movement would show easier even with high speed.

Was it you who claimed, only the other day, that high shutter-speeds "don't help because they are only 'simulated' by the moving blades", and were told that this is rubbish? Someone tried to use this argument here, only a few days ago.

If fast shutter speeds were only "simulated", then how is it that as you make shutter speed faster, keeping everything else the same, the exposure decreases linearly, and the photo gets less exposed?

Ok. You're talking about camera-shake causing pixel-level blurring. YES, it's true that at fast shutter-speeds, one side of the photo is still "taken" say, 1/250s "later" than the other side, so the whole photo "spans" 1/250s, even if you have a faster shutter speed selected.

BUT still, each cluster of neighbouring pixels is still only illuminated - and therefore capable of suffering shake-induced blurring - for the much shorter time of the exposure.

HOWEVER, you are right that an effect could manifest itself at fast shutter-speeds: Imagine you're taking a fast photo of, say, a building with long, straight walls, and the building fills most of the frame. As you're taking the photo, your hands are shaking because:

a) You've got a hangover and you need more booze and you've got the shakes
b) It's cold
c) A bird flies over and poos on your head and you recoil in disgust
d) Someone shoves you

Now the camera moves significantly during the exposure, and IS is absent or cannot compensate.

The photo will show those straight lines of the building as wavy, rather than straight. But those lines, despite being wavy, will not be blurred; they'll still be sharp, because at the pixel level, exposure time was still, say, 1/2000s or whatever.

The effect is more like a kind of still-photo-rolling-shutter.

 

[privatebydesign]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

...
...our you have to tripod up for portraiture. Ouch.

- A

And use tripod for landscapes too. No real problem with that. Or they could hopefully not increase the megapixels more than what they are now in 5DsR. I believe they are more than enough both for landscapes and birding...

Good gracious, what a complete load of garbage!

Care to explain?

EDIT: @both: Also read my post that is last in the previous page. Not caring for an increase in mpix so probably all these do not apply that much...

Care to explain? Sure, but use my actual quotes.

I do not care at all for mirrorless. But to tell the truth a global shutter would help in very high resolution. It was mentioned that in that case we need tripods. High speed shooting does not help because above flash sync speed (1/200, 1/250) it is being simulated by the moving blades. With small pixels (or smaller microlenses if you will) movement would show easier even with high speed.

Oh sure, if you're shooting with flash you are SOL with these super high res rigs: too slow and you get motion ruining the detail and too fast you have to use HSS.

...our you have to tripod up for portraiture. Ouch.

- A

Good gracious, what a complete load of garbage!

First off, tripods for portraiture.

One of the greatest living portrait shooters is Gregory Heisler, he always uses a tripod. One of the greatest living head shot photographers is Peter Hurley, he always uses a tripod. One of the most well know commercial photographers specializing in sports people and athletes is Joel Grimes, he always uses a tripod. Funnily enough they all use the 5DS/R too, but they used tripods before that.

However there are just as many high resolution camera shooters not using tripods, the image sharpness depends entirely on your stability and your exposure.

Now onto the flash/shutter sync erroneous thinking.

When you make a flash exposure, especially in a studio/controlled environment, the flash makes 100% of the exposure, the sync speed is irrelevant because the ambient does not contribute to the exposure. Ergo the flash duration is the effective length of exposure, not the shutter speed. Flash durations, even with modest flashes like PCB Einsteins, can be as low as 1/13,500 sec. There is no "motion ruining the detail" going on, if your effective exposure duration is from 1/1000 to 1/13,000 of a second you can handhold a 100MP Hasselblad and get perfect pin sharp pixel level detail.

To illustrate the fact here is a test shot prior to a shoot with a lacrosse player. The ball is tack sharp with a shutter speed of 1/160 sec. Oh, and the entire series of sessions have been done on a tripod. The second image is a 100% crop of the ball from the preceding image. The third is a flash miss/no fire from the previous session with the same camera settings.

 

[ahsanford]

Re: Update to EOS 5DS & 5DS R Coming in 2017? [CR1]

PBD -- excellent post, thanks. Everything you said was spot on and I continue to learn from your experience. Appreciated!

Now please consider someone who isn't you and lacks your sense of studio portraiture methodology, your commitment to detail, etc.

Like a wedding photographer with a 5DS who has to work a hurry. Using speedlites only. Who may will not crack out a tripod all day. Who may want some ambient light in the shot. Surely they would be in a bit of a pickle juggling higher shutter speeds for that high MP rig vs. their sync speed, right?

I am a rank amateur in this arena, I am not trying to pick an argument so much as understand. Please set me straight!

- A