DPReview: Canon EOS R first impressions with Chris and Rishi

RayValdez360

EOS RP
Jun 6, 2012
331
110
No it's not that. People just go against their own interests to support things or people they are familiar with. Remember when they put C Log in the 5D IV. Do you not think that was the result of people asking for it or complain about the lack of it.
So people bought the 5DIV without C-Log against their best interests? I bought it but without C-Lo even after C-Log was introduced - I don't do video so did I buy it against my own interests?
People buy the Sony even though they have a really poor touch-screen function. Ar they buying against their own interests, or do they just have different priorities?

People know in full what features a camera has and to tell them they are buying the wrong thing is really patronising.
You are a little too defensive to get the point. C log is an example of people acting noticing something important was missing and they spoke up which is what we should do as a consumer. Otherwise a brand would have no incentive to innovate or add features, just because because you believe you personally dont need it as if your needs reflects the entire photographic community. Your Sony example is terrible. that could just be boiled down to a few reasons from material costs to just not being able to do a good touch screen but i bet they will fix it if more people would complain (if it really is a problem i have little experience with sony cameras). It's not like Sony is saying " We will give them a crappy screen so they can buy an a9, but not make it that great so they can buy an fs7, but not make the FS7 too good so they have to buy an FS5 as well." That's how I feel about Canon's way of selling products. I forgot to add, the against interests part is about defending such a practice and not demanding the most.
 
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Mikehit

EOS 5D MK IV
Jul 28, 2015
3,181
379
You are a little too defensive to get the point. C log is an example of people acting noticing something important was missing and they spoke up which is what we should do as a consumer. Otherwise a brand would have no incentive to innovate or add features, just because because you believe you personally dont need it as if your needs reflects the entire photographic community.
I totally agree with what you say in that post.
I read your response to orangutan as being that people did not buy other brands because they needed guidance, and you followed that up by saying that people bought these brands against their best interests i.e. they were buying something that was not best for them because of Canon's marketing. So I was pointing out that they were fully aware that Canon (for example) did not include C-Log and still bought Canon which suggested the Canon list of compromises was better than the (e.g.) Sony list of compromises.

Now, whether Canon responded by adding C-Log to make it an even better product is a completely different issue.

Your Sony example is terrible. that could just be boiled down to a few reasons from material costs to just not being able to do a good touch screen but i bet they will fix it if more people would complain (if it really is a problem i have little experience with sony cameras). It's not like Sony is saying " We will give them a crappy screen so they can buy an a9, but not make it that great so they can buy an fs7, but not make the FS7 too good so they have to buy an FS5 as well." That's how I feel about Canon's way of selling products.
How do you know Sony don't do it? Do they put the same EVF/LCD in the A73 as in the A9? Nope.
Every company does it.


I forgot to add, the against interests part is about defending such a practice and not demanding the most.
Who is defending it? Understanding is not the same as complicity - if it were there would be an awful lot of criminal psychologists in prison!
And this point is made by so many so often that everyone must be aware of it and yet they still buy Canon so it is clearly not an issue in the real world beyond forums.
 
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bbb34

EOS T7i
Jul 24, 2012
63
45
Amsterdam
But why? Beside the EVF, the great thing is that mirrorless could be smaller. They even did make a new mount. And then the lenses are so big....
Have a look at that white paper. Canon made an effort to explain it, lens by lens.
TLDR? The RF 50/1.2 is optimized for optical performance, and it was consciously not optimized for size. You cannot have both. Neither Sony nor Canon will change the laws of optics.

It is true that mirrorless lenses could be smaller. Many of them are. It is "horses for courses".
 

Don Haines

Beware of cats with laser eyes!
Jun 4, 2012
7,998
1,448
Canada
Have a look at that white paper. Canon made an effort to explain it, lens by lens.
TLDR? The RF 50/1.2 is optimized for optical performance, and it was consciously not optimized for size. You cannot have both. Neither Sony nor Canon will change the laws of optics.

It is true that mirrorless lenses could be smaller. Many of them are. It is "horses for courses".
Exactly!

As has been said countless times before, if you want a small lens, you want it for a crop image circle, or you want it to be slow....
 

rishi_sanyal

EOS 80D
Jun 26, 2014
143
2
Let's not give DPR and Rishi more attention, they are a thinly veiled anti-Canon review site who overemphasize Sony strengths (his obsession with dynamic range is just one example) while glossing over their weaknesses. Funny in this video it is Chris who mentions that Canon R will focus wide open stopped down, a critical Sony weakness never mentioned in Rishi's Sony reviews. Canon makes cameras for usability first and foremost. That means emphasis on auto-focus speed and accuracy, ergonomics, UI and menus, responsive and fully articulating touchscreen, closing the sensor when changing lenses, etc. Things that are not exciting for review sites, but important for real world use.
Funny that other sites are calling me the anodyne one trying to be diplomatic and apologetic for Canon while Chris is the one speaking the harsh truth about the Canon in this video.

Just for the purposes of setting the record straight instead of letting wildly inaccurate assertions live uncontested here:

I'm actually the one who tested wide open autofocus and made sure we made a point of it in the video, but we each broke up the points to make it a discussion. Chris only prompted me, b/c that's how the live discussion flowed at that moment (I'd explained it previously to him), but I explained it and indicated why it's great. Yet I'm the one who underplayed / overlooked it?

I'm literally the only person in the media that even brings the issue of stop down focusing up... And yet you accuse me of underplaying it?

Ironically, I'm the one who constantly insists we criticise Sony's stop down focus on every Sony review (not sure how you miss it: it's a complaint in most all our Sony reviews, just take a look at our latest a7 III review: we have examples showing how it causes misfocused). I even mentioned the issue in our Nikon z7 content/video.

Who else in the industry even knows this to be an issue? I'm the only person that keeps bringing it up, yet here I am accused of covering it up.
Fascinating, the power of preconceived bias.

Who else in the media is even talking about the Canon focusing wide open? Only us. But we're the ones not bringing it to light?

In our upcoming content we'll also talk about how PDAF striping will never be an issue with DPAF. I'm sure many of you will think I will not have been harsh enough, but my job is to represent all photographic equipment in context, not take sides.

If any of you have genuine concerns or things you'd like tested, do please let us know and we will try our best.
 
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rishi_sanyal

EOS 80D
Jun 26, 2014
143
2
I'm expecting old Rishi boy to be still complaining that the new Canon body still can't read his mind on which of the 5655 focus points it should "automagically" select when in AI Servo. :ROFLMAO::LOL::giggle:
Don't you worry, I will not disappoint!

In fact, I'll start right now. Canon's first and default AF mode in servo is 'Face+Tracking', with 'Auto' subject selection enabled by default.

Oh the irony...

But in case you want to choose one of those 5655 points yourself with your eye to the EVF, you'll either find yourself using the D-pad you can barely feel to move AF points one pixel at a time, taking you forever to get it anywhere, or defaulting to the button press plus two dials to move the point horizontally/vertically, or turn Touchpad AF on (it's off by default), configure it, then touch and drag to move the AF point which is unfortunately laggy and not nearly as precise as using an AF joystick.

Which they left out if this camera.

If anything, seems to be Canon is encouraging you to use the subject tracking capabilities of on sensor PDAF, which is smart, because it's getting so good.

The most usable AF method we found for faster action was to either just stick to center point that you don't move too much, and keep that over your subject. Or, my preferred way: Face+Tracking Servo mode, but with 'Initial Servo AF point in Face+Tracking' set to 'Initial AF point' as opposed to Auto (default). This way, you just place the center point (or wherever your AF point is) over your subject, then initiate AF and the camera will track it no matter where it moves. Fastest way to specify your subject, and DPAF does a pretty good job sticking to your subject. If it loses it, it only takes a fraction of a second for you to reframe to put your center point over your subject again and initiate AF again.

But make no mistake, it is nowhere as easy to quickly move your AF point around with your eye to the finder if your preferred way of working is to constantly move your AF point to keep it over your subject as they move or you recompose. I wish this weren't so, but then again the way this camera is set up by default and 'wants you to work' all point to Canon's recognition that subject recognition and tracking is the future.

And that is smart of them.
 
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rishi_sanyal

EOS 80D
Jun 26, 2014
143
2
Time will tell. I am a bit surprised that they said anything major positive about the camera as DPReview seems to have negative towards Canon
Don't believe everything you read on the internet ;)

Does 87% Gold for 5D IV and 89% Gold for 1D X II indicate negative bias against Canon on our part?

We try to be as unbiased as possible, while considering products against the entire marketplace (not just within one brand). Inevitably that means we'll disappoint some with some reviews, others with others.

Hopefully though, those looking for the information they need will get it in our reviews. And if you don't, please let us know in the comments. Thanks.
 
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woodman411

EOS T7i
Aug 1, 2017
99
47
USA
Ironically, I'm the one who constantly insists we criticise Sony's stop down focus on every Sony review (not sure how you miss it: it's a complaint in most all our Sony reviews, just take a look at our latest a7 III review: we have examples showing how it causes misfocused). I even mentioned the issue in our Nikon z7 content/video.

In our upcoming content we'll also talk about how PDAF striping will never be an issue with DPAF. I'm sure many of you will think I will not have been harsh enough, but my job is to represent all photographic equipment in context, not take sides.

If any of you have genuine concerns or things you'd like tested, do please let us know and we will try our best.
Hello Rishi, yes I must have missed it in the a7r2 review, I stopped reading DPR reviews a while ago, because the Sony bias is so strong. It's there. Just because the 5d4 and 1dx2 got good DPR ratings and Sony reviews have their weaknesses listed, doesn't mean there is no bias (after all, if every Canon product got subpar DPR ratings and no Sony weaknesses were listed, the bias would be outright obvious). It's everything in-between - the content emphasis, tone, excitement and exuberance, or lack of. The perspectives and conclusions.

This video is a perfect example of Sony bias. After previewing a few Canon R features, both you and Chris already conclude that the Canon R is a "stop gap camera (primarily for existing Canon users)", since you claim "the bar is set by the best mirrorless", which I can only assume you mean... Sony. How is it you already came to that conclusion? (hint: starts with "b", "ia" in the middle, "s" at the end). Like I mentioned before, Canon puts usability and IQ first and foremost. I do too, but you don't. If you did, your reviews would be more like Bryan Carnathan's at the-digital-picture. Just one example: he rightly stated that Canon's anti-flicker technology is a "game-changer". Consistent exposure under inconsistent lighting. Kinda important. Kinda game-changing. DPR 5d4 review? Not one mention of this. Well, that's not true - you list it in the "Pro" section in the conclusions. That's it. No comment or care on this. Why? Because it's not important to you. You don't mention this as a "Con" in Sony reviews. You don't even mention how bad the anti-flicker works on the A7R3 like Bryan does. That's just one example.

But total confession time. I'm biased too. Because if someone gave me an a73 for free, I would ask for permission to sell it and buy a Canon R. Because I like Canon ergonomics and dislike Sony's ergonomics, especially for fast glass (again, something Bryan rightly showed and DPR did not). I like Canon is made in Japan and it's build quality. I love how Canon focuses (no pun intended) on usability, because the sensor closing when changing lenses is a game-changer, according to the countless Sony sensor-dust complaints. I like how anti-flicker works reliably. I like how... (I better stop... getting late).
 

privatebydesign

Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Jan 29, 2011
7,552
634
119
If any of you have genuine concerns or things you'd like tested, do please let us know and we will try our best.
I'd like you to post the RAW file, you remember the one with "..impossible-to-control background scene of high contrast, and exposing to retain the sky meant that shadow brightening to make the foreground anything but a sea of black resulted in noise and banding, which you can see even in the 50% crop below."

I'd like you to post it, but even though you post thousands of others I know you won't.
 

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rishi_sanyal

EOS 80D
Jun 26, 2014
143
2
Yes, you did miss it as it was covered in our a7R II review. We make a bigger deal of it now though because at least the a7R II focused wide open in AF-S (so it was still quite good stopped down in low light), but the newer ones don't even do that. That was actually the first camera where we uncovered the behavior, prompting us to investigate further and then show the problems it causes in subsequent reviews.

If your accusations of bias are based on you not even reading our reviews and just believing angry rants you read here, then, that's unfortunate and I'm not sure there's much I can or should do.

We actually put usability and IQ (and AF and video) very high on our priority list, with the understanding that usability is somewhat subjective. It's part of why most of us at the event concluded that the camera itself is a bit of a stop-gap, though the system holds much promise.

But we all have our different weightings on priorities, which is why I hope our new scoring system with personalized scores will help.

Bryan and I had a great chat today - wonderful guy, with a similar set of priorities and dedication to education.

FWIW, I personally enjoyed shooting with the EOS R, and the new optics are phenomenal. These are exciting times for creatives.
 
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Sep 8, 2018
2
0
I have a 5D MkIV, a C300 Mk2 and a Sony A7S2 and have enjoyed shooting on my friend’s A9 but still found the 5D MKIV my preferred camera, but truthfully I’m brand agnostic. What drives me crazy is people talking about features that don’t exist on cameras and just damning a camera out of the gate THAT THEY HAVENT EVEN SHOT WITH. Dear god people. It doesn’t have 4K 60p??? Is there any other full frame DSLR that does other than the Canon 1DX Mark II? I don’t believe any Sony’s do but I could be wrong. I love my Sony A7S 2 but it’s utter shit for still photos on pro shoots which is why picked up the 5D Mark IV. So what would be awesome is more people talking about useful applications for this type of camera so we could start forming opinions on what would be a proper use for this particular tool. Sony A7s 2: awesome low light 4K full frame video beast with less than ideal skin tones (imo), very unreliable stills camera. Everyone complains about 5D Mark IV crop factor in 4K that it took me a month to realize there was no crop in FullHD and I just switched over to that because truthfully I was just shooting 4K because why not? But my clients really only want HD for bandwidth reasons and then I have no crop factor. Anyways late night rant, can’t wait to actually be able to hold the camera in a store and see how it feels. Probably will wait for the next iteration and keep building my EF glass library but damn that control ring looks sexy as f***.
 

Sporgon

5% of gear used 95% of the time
I'd like you to post the RAW file, you remember the one with "..impossible-to-control background scene of high contrast, and exposing to retain the sky meant that shadow brightening to make the foreground anything but a sea of black resulted in noise and banding, which you can see even in the 50% crop below."

I'd like you to post it, but even though you post thousands of others I know you won't.
You've got no chance Private !

I now have a 5Ds and although the DR and malleability of the files at 100 ISO aren't up to the latest on chip ADC chips it's actually pretty close in practical terms. That image and comment in DPR was and still is a disservice to the general consumer looking for a very high res camera because the image must have been taken twenty to thirty minutes after sundown, so it was dark, and the sky (the light source itself ) was under exposed. No camera would have lifted that data well.
 

rishi_sanyal

EOS 80D
Jun 26, 2014
143
2
Don't cross keys work as a surrogate for joystick, or aren't they fast enough?
The directional pad? Apart from the fact you can barely even feel even you've clicked it (forget about operating it even with a light glove), the D-pad moves the AF point far too slowly to be useful. Just because you have 5655 selectable AF point positions certainly doesn't mean you should make them all available for user selection in general shooting... But... That's what they did.
 

Kit.

EOS 6D MK II
Apr 25, 2011
1,086
515
The directional pad? Apart from the fact you can barely even feel even you've clicked it (forget about operating it even with a light glove), the D-pad moves the AF point far too slowly to be useful. Just because you have 5655 selectable AF point positions certainly doesn't mean you should make them all available for user selection in general shooting... But... That's what they did.
I'm not a fan of their new button layout and I hope they return to the proven one for a larger camera to follow, but theoretically they might turn the M-Fn button into a "jump" modifier for the cross keys. Could be done with a firmware update.
 

BillB

EOS 6D MK II
May 11, 2017
1,046
272
You are a little too defensive to get the point. C log is an example of people acting noticing something important was missing and they spoke up which is what we should do as a consumer. Otherwise a brand would have no incentive to innovate or add features, just because because you believe you personally dont need it as if your needs reflects the entire photographic community. Your Sony example is terrible. that could just be boiled down to a few reasons from material costs to just not being able to do a good touch screen but i bet they will fix it if more people would complain (if it really is a problem i have little experience with sony cameras). It's not like Sony is saying " We will give them a crappy screen so they can buy an a9, but not make it that great so they can buy an fs7, but not make the FS7 too good so they have to buy an FS5 as well." That's how I feel about Canon's way of selling products. I forgot to add, the against interests part is about defending such a practice and not demanding the most.
I guess "demanding the most" might work sometimes, but there are plenty of reasons to put out a firmware update on a camera, and I don't see how you are so sure you know why Canon and Sony did what they did.
 

BillB

EOS 6D MK II
May 11, 2017
1,046
272
I have a 5D MkIV, a C300 Mk2 and a Sony A7S2 and have enjoyed shooting on my friend’s A9 but still found the 5D MKIV my preferred camera, but truthfully I’m brand agnostic. What drives me crazy is people talking about features that don’t exist on cameras and just damning a camera out of the gate THAT THEY HAVENT EVEN SHOT WITH. Dear god people. It doesn’t have 4K 60p??? Is there any other full frame DSLR that does other than the Canon 1DX Mark II? I don’t believe any Sony’s do but I could be wrong. I love my Sony A7S 2 but it’s utter shit for still photos on pro shoots which is why picked up the 5D Mark IV. So what would be awesome is more people talking about useful applications for this type of camera so we could start forming opinions on what would be a proper use for this particular tool. Sony A7s 2: awesome low light 4K full frame video beast with less than ideal skin tones (imo), very unreliable stills camera. Everyone complains about 5D Mark IV crop factor in 4K that it took me a month to realize there was no crop in FullHD and I just switched over to that because truthfully I was just shooting 4K because why not? But my clients really only want HD for bandwidth reasons and then I have no crop factor. Anyways late night rant, can’t wait to actually be able to hold the camera in a store and see how it feels. Probably will wait for the next iteration and keep building my EF glass library but damn that control ring looks sexy as f***.
But if we all waited until we tried the camera, what would we reading now?
 
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privatebydesign

Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Jan 29, 2011
7,552
634
119
Yes, you did miss it as it was covered in our a7R II review. We make a bigger deal of it now though because at least the a7R II focused wide open in AF-S (so it was still quite good stopped down in low light), but the newer ones don't even do that. That was actually the first camera where we uncovered the behavior, prompting us to investigate further and then show the problems it causes in subsequent reviews.

If your accusations of bias are based on you not even reading our reviews and just believing angry rants you read here, then, that's unfortunate and I'm not sure there's much I can or should do.

We actually put usability and IQ (and AF and video) very high on our priority list, with the understanding that usability is somewhat subjective. It's part of why most of us at the event concluded that the camera itself is a bit of a stop-gap, though the system holds much promise.

But we all have our different weightings on priorities, which is why I hope our new scoring system with personalized scores will help.

Bryan and I had a great chat today - wonderful guy, with a similar set of priorities and dedication to education.

FWIW, I personally enjoyed shooting with the EOS R, and the new optics are phenomenal. These are exciting times for creatives.
Then simply posting the RAW file would be very educational, helpful and show that you truly did make an honest representation of the exposure and capabilities of the camera.
 

privatebydesign

Would you take advice from a cartoons stuffed toy?
Jan 29, 2011
7,552
634
119
You've got no chance Private !

I now have a 5Ds and although the DR and malleability of the files at 100 ISO aren't up to the latest on chip ADC chips it's actually pretty close in practical terms. That image and comment in DPR was and still is a disservice to the general consumer looking for a very high res camera because the image must have been taken twenty to thirty minutes after sundown, so it was dark, and the sky (the light source itself ) was under exposed. No camera would have lifted that data well.
Of course not. Dedication to education only goes so far. ;)
 

Etienne

EOS 6D MK II
Sep 19, 2010
1,338
135
Ottawa Ontario
Unfortunately it's back to the waiting game with Canon. This EOS-R has a huge crop in 4K, sub-par codec, terrible rolling shutter, and no usable slo-mo mode. All of this, and more, is available in the competition.
One wonders if Canon just can't compete in mirrorless video. All the wonderful build quality, ergonomics and great lenses don't make up for the technical inferiority. This article lays it all out... https://www.eoshd.com/2018/09/dishonest-misleading-unnecessary-eos-r-and-cropped-4k/