What Do You Want to See in the EOS M System?

[scyrene]

Unless they introduce an aggressive, balls-out, mirrorless system whose goal is to be king of the hill, I'll probably abandon Canon altogether.

I've owned a 70D, M1 and now have a 6D and an M3. I loved my 70D but I love the IQ on the 6D better. The M1 was just OK, I only purchased it because it was cheap and I wanted something lighter. I've been impressed by the IQ on the M3. It's great if you live in a Canon bubble with a bunch of Canon EF/EF-s glass. Once you start exploring the competitors, you quickly realize just how much the M3 lacks. It's easy to ignore the findings because of your prior investment in Canon glass.

That said, I want to see:

• Full frame mirrorless
  At least 28MP
  IBIS
  Top tier low light performance (Backlit sensor?)
  Ability to use existing Canon glass with above average AF performance and dual pixel AF
  Built-in EVF
  Articulating touch LCD
  4K video
  Headphone jack
  Competitive price (somewhere between the Panasonic GX8 and Sony's A7RII) I'm willing to pay a premium but don't be ridiculous

This might sound like wishful thinking but all the technology exists. Canon's approach of providing only incremental updates is getting old. They need to stop BSing and swing for the fences. Heck, I'd be happy to see that feature set in a DSLR. I'm encouraged by the 6DMII rumors.

Sure, plenty of arguments for why not this or that definitely exist. I think most will agree Canon has been dragging their feet. Another incremental, half-baked update will be an insult to Canon loyalists and probably the last straw for me.

Bye then.

 

[Styrofoto]

-I'm always stumbling over some button I didn't mean to push. Better layout/ergonomics would be nice.
-55-200 lens performs well, but I can't believe I own a lens with a plastic mount. Maybe that's a personal prejudice, but I haven't seen a plastic mount since I sold my old Nifty Fifty.
-How about tethered capture? Or maybe that's an Adobe issue, haven't researched it further.

Really, I like the system. It's easy to carry anywhere, in a very small bag, with all the lenses. Great for hikes/nature walks, etc. Not so good for sports, photographing fast-moving kids, etc. I'm really happy with the image quality. I think the system has a lot of potential.

 

[Canon Rumors Guy]

Less buttons = more time in menus = takes longer to change the camera's settings whilst shooting.

More user definable buttons would be better and spaced so that they can be operated distinctively whilst wearing gloves in the snow during winter.

Look on the back of a Leica Q or Leica M. Even some of those buttons aren't needed. I honestly have no idea what people are changing in their cameras consistently that they need so many buttons and dials, especially on a camera like an EOS M.

 

[brad-man]

I'm not feeling the love for the M around here. Anyhow, 12mm, 35mm, 55mm and 75mm primes @ f/2-2.2 (one of the last two with macro capability). Obviously faster AF and at least a little taste of functional servo. Larger buffer and faster frame rate. And why the hell can't the M-Fn button be used to toggle the shutter wheel between shutter speed and ISO? Some faster zooms would be nice, but I don't want to be too demanding...

 

[Zv]

I'd like better ergonomics, the M3 is a step in the right direction. I haven't used one but I see it has dials on it. Ideally I'd like a front dial and rear dial - same as all Canon DSLRs to easily change the two most important settings, shutter speed and aperture. An ISO button might be useful if placed well and finally a drive mode button. Everything else can live in the Q menu accessed via touchscreen.

Trying to change shutter speed on the original M even with the thinnest of gloves is a pain in the ass. It keeps shifting the curser over to aperture or presses the star button. That dial is tiny and useless.

 

[Lee Jay]

By the time they did enough to the M to make me interested, it would be an SLR.

 

[Jopa]

The camera manufacturers can make small cameras but they can't beat physics and make small lenses. So at the end the camera size doesn't matter if you put a large tele lens on it. I could care less if it's a mirrorless or not as long as it has 1) fast AF 2) accepts EF lenses. After shooting a few years the Sony A7-series cameras I'm really tired of very limited native lens selection, random adapters and slow/unreliable AF via adapters. I hope Canon won't make the same mistake by introducing a new FF mirrorless mount. Tried the "Sony way" already - no thanks, don't want the same cr@p from Canon

 

[pwp]

If it means needing to charge $3k or more for an all-out brilliant, full featured, fast AF, industry best EVF, high performance M then I just wish Canon had the guts to just go for it. They will eventually. The current form factor/design of all DSLR's has its conceptual roots in film cameras. Historically the current crop of DSLR's will be seen as transitional. Maintaining the familiar form factor helped make the migration from film SLR to digital DSLR appealingly palatable, and was a marketing master-stroke. Fast forward another decade and it's likely we'll be grateful that we no longer work with clunky DSLR's. There's a bright future for a properly evolved professional level M.

I'd love a glimpse behind the closed doors of the R&D departments of Canon and Nikon. Alongside the predictable conservative developments would be a vision of the future, and I'm saying that will be mirrorless. Just give them time...

-pw

 

[neuroanatomist]

The current form factor/design of all DSLR's has its conceptual roots in film cameras. Historically the current crop of DSLR's will be seen as transitional. Maintaining the familiar form factor helped make the migration from film SLR to digital DSLR appealingly palatable, and was a marketing master-stroke. Fast forward another decade and it's likely we'll be grateful that we no longer work with clunky DSLR's.

The form factor of film cameras provided good ergonomics, as do dSLRs. Holding a small MILC in your hand for a day's shooting is not a pleasant experience, particularly with a large, fast lens (f/2.8 zoom, for example) mounted.

 

[unfocused]

So, in less than four pages there are maybe 30 different scenarios, almost all of them in conflict with one another.

Simple? Not.

 

[Canon Rumors Guy]

So, in less than four pages there are maybe 30 different scenarios, almost all of them in conflict with one another.

Simple? Not.

You're absolutely correct, that's why I did the post. I think it really sheds light on the difficulties manufacturers face when developing a mirrorless system.

 

[candc]

I have been using an a7rii for about a month now and like it a lot. Its by far the best camera I have ever used with manual focus lenses. I like the size and the way it handles. The crop mode works the way it should. You see an aps-c size image in the finder and get a 18mp raw file. I would like to see canon make a similar type camera with a high resolution ff dpaf sensor and a built in rt flash trigger. Get rid of all the extra buttons and dials and give it a touchscreen

 

[neuroanatomist]

So, in less than four pages there are maybe 30 different scenarios, almost all of them in conflict with one another.

Simple? Not.

You're absolutely correct, that's why I did the post. I think it really sheds light on the difficulties manufacturers face when developing a mirrorless system.

In the case of Canon and Nikon I think those difficulties are self-imposed, based on the size (relatively small) of the mirrorless market.

Consider that Canon dSLRs range from the comparatively tiny SL1 to the comparatively large 1D X, with 3-4 intermediate sizes, comprising five current levels of APS-C bodies and three levels of FF bodies. If Canon were to make a comparable investment in the MILC segment, it's quite likely there would be 'something for everyone'. However, it seems the size of the MILC market simply isn't substantial enough to justify that sort of investment.

 

[JoeDavid]

This is an easy one. I'd like something along the lines of the Fujifilm X-E2 but with a DPAF sensor and better IQ than Canon's current crop of sensors. The patent with the on-sensor A/Ds may go a ways at improving noise and DR. It would be good to be able to use EF and EF-S lenses with it but smaller, L quality lenses would be preferred. I'm perfectly fine with my photo backpack and a 5D3, 5Ds, and 4 or 5 lenses most of the time but there are times when I'd like to have a much smaller kit and appear more armature and less "professional". I'd pre-order something like the X-E2 with a next generation DPAF sensor and a smaller EF-M 24-105/4L IS in a heartbeat.

 

[russ]

I agree with most of what you say but Canon should shoot higher for the APS version. Show the world Canon makes the best APS and FF cameras (mirrorless or otherwise) once again.

Yes, Canon needs to embrace the future and fully go for mirrorless and makes sense to do both APS and FF. I'd probably get both- the APS for travel (to keep it small so I can carry on all my camera gear) and FF for more local shooting and landscapes. My 1DX is amazing but not something I care to travel with and I travel a lot right now.

In short a FF body that competes head to head with Sony A7RII FF mirrorless but takes Canon flash and existing EF lenses (heck, a lot of Sony folks use Canon lenses because Sony still doesn't have a good inventory of high end lenses). That means a new Canon sensor since the newer Canon FF ISO performance and dynamic range don't compete with Sony (or Nikon 810).

For APS side- Give us a 7D mirrorless camera (smaller, lighter but still built tough with same performance). Same EOS 5D/7D basic control layout or something close. EX-RT Flash support is a must. It doesn't have to be super small and I'd argue the M3 is too small. My travel camera, the Fuji X-T1 size is really nice and has a nice set of lenses now. The Fuji control layout is killer- really fast to change exposure compensation, ISO and focus points. For Canon to compete they need good ergonomics (eg. EOS 1D, 5D, 7D like controls). That said, all I need from Fuji is remote TTL flash ala Canon 600ex-rt + controller (make the controller smaller though Canon!) and I'd have little reason to come back to Canon for my travel camera.

For lower end APS- Canon already has the M3 so keep it in the lineup as the low end. Sure hope it's much better than the M1 I owned for a while before realizing I couldn't get around the poor and unpredictable autofocus (thank you, EBay).

Do I think any of the above will happen? Not really. Canon doesn't have the vision or fortitude to make bold steps like Fuji or Sony. Still hoping I'm wrong. I've been with Canon since EOS-1 film days and got the original D30 (late 2000) and have owned the 1D, 1D-mkII, mkIII, mkIV and still have the 1DX shooting 100s of thousands of frames with my 1D bodies. Very disappointed by Canon (and Nikon for that matter since I owned the V1 for a bit)

Russ

Really simple:
1. APS-C: 2 models, one small, dirt-cheap and simple (M10), and one hi-end, sized like M3, but built-in top-notch EVF plus sensor as good as Samsung NX-1/NX-500 plus AF system at least as good as Sony A6000 plus regular EOS UI (not Powershot firmware!). Grip can be a bit bigger to accomodate LP-E6N battery to give it 500+ shots. Price definitely below 999 body only.
Existing EF-M lens lineup is perfectly fine, just add a compact short portrait tele e.g. EF-M 80/2.4 IS STM. Plus a firmware update for the EF/EF-M adapter to provide full AF speed with USM EF lenses.

2. FF sensor: just copy Sony A7 II family, bring 3 FF models - one fast shooting, one hi-rez, one "cine" version to keep the "it must have 4k" crowd happy. Not bigger and definitely not more expensive. To make it a full success bring a sensible line-up of new native short-flange back lenses that are as cheap and optically good as the EF-M ones. Expensive L lenses to be added later on. Make sure Canon RT radio wireless transmitter is built in, next to WIFI, NFC and GPS - all of them switched off by default. And buy the bloody 42MP sensor from Sony, rather than messing about in your own fab.

So easy. just do it, Canon!

 

[1Zach1]

I'd rather not see a larger camera, I love the M because it's a portable option over a DSLR. Adding a mirrorless version of the Rebel or something would be fine, but I want to see advanced options in a camera the size of the M3, not being forced to something larger, or having to settle a sub-part portable camera.

 

[unfocused]

In the case of Canon and Nikon I think those difficulties are self-imposed, based on the size (relatively small) of the mirrorless market.

Consider that Canon dSLRs range from the comparatively tiny SL1 to the comparatively large 1D X, with 3-4 intermediate sizes, comprising five current levels of APS-C bodies and three levels of FF bodies. If Canon were to make a comparable investment in the MILC segment, it's quite likely there would be 'something for everyone'. However, it seems the size of the MILC market simply isn't substantial enough to justify that sort of investment.

I think it goes beyond that, to the form factor itself, which may be the real limiting factor, and much harder to overcome than Nikon's and Canon's assessments of the market. Indeed, the limits of the core design may be what limits the market.

There are solid reasons why the SLR form beat out the rangefinder form and relegated rangefinders to a very small niche dominated by Leica. Many of these reasons have already been cited here, with the most problematic being that the traditional rangefinder form lends itself very well to lenses in the 35mm to 135 mm range, but not to lenses much wider or much longer. These digital rangefinder bodies fill a niche, but aren't versatile enough to truly threaten DSLRs, especially when manufacturers are now making affordable 600mm zooms and under 20mm wide angles for DSLRs

On the other hand, the electronic viewfinder mirrorless cameras that mimic SLRS may ultimately replace true SLRs once the viewfinder technology surpasses the exquisite simplicity of the single lens reflex. But, the traditional mirror design sets a high bar, since it requires no power, is as reliable as physics and as fast as the speed of light. When and if EVFs surpass mirrors, the cameras will look very much like our current DSLRs, likely be about the same size, will be available in the same variety of bodies and will certainly accept the same lenses. Evolution, not revolution.

 

[distant.star]

.
Easy...

They subcontract the whole deal out to Staples.

They'll produce a one-button camera, and every time you push the button it takes the picture and says, "That was easy."

 

[michi]

Minimize buttons? Heck no, more buttons. The more direct control the better. That's a really odd request in my opinion.

I had the original M. Kinda liked it, but not enough. Was willing to spend money on a system but when all the interesting lenses were not available in the US and it was iffy if the system would continue, I lost interest. My small carry everywhere camera is now a SL1. Love that thing. Can't wait for a SL2. At this point I don't think Canon can convince me to buy into another system again.

 

[TeT]

my wants for the M would be Pop up, hot shoe, EVF, touch, C1 C2 modes, lots of sensitive focus points, quick focus no lag...

The IQ is fine, FF would be nice, I would have to realign my lens lineup a little for APC & everyday use...