DDOS Attack Takes Down Russian Source of Canon Pre-Release Details

[SteveC]

The J in Beijing is not exactly the same as pronounced in Jingle, but it’s much closer to that than the zh sound that you so often hear. Right?

Probably. At least, it's a stop or an affricate, rather than a fricative. I just looked it up; it would sound to me a lot like "ch". It's a t+German ch--not the one in Bach but the one in ich. I would guess it would strike you as a ch prounounced with an oddly high-pitched hissing sound. It shouldn't be voiced like our J. (Again, Chinese has a different attitude towards voiced consonants; they might occur accidentally in the same way we accidentally aspirate p's in some places. No letter in Chinese is routinely voiced other than m and n.)

This is yet another quirk of (some) English speakers. They see an unfamiliar foreign word with a j in it and assume it must be a zh sound. As if all foreign languages were French. Take, for instance 'Azerbaijan.' Nope, that's really a j-as-in-jump, not a j-as-in-bonjour. The Russians do not have a j-for-jump letter in their language but they fake it with d + zh (дж), which is actually what a j is in reality.

Now, you can listen to this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Zh-Beijing.ogg and decide what you think the most sensible English spelling is...I get Peiching. But I know that's not what it actually is, because that ch isn't really a ch.

 

[LogicExtremist]

Probably. At least, it's a stop or an affricate, rather than a fricative. I just looked it up; it would sound to me a lot like "ch". It's a t+German ch--not the one in Bach but the one in ich. I would guess it would strike you as a ch prounounced with an oddly high-pitched hissing sound. It shouldn't be voiced like our J. (Again, Chinese has a different attitude towards voiced consonants; they might occur accidentally in the same way we accidentally aspirate p's in some places. No letter in Chinese is routinely voiced other than m and n.)

This is yet another quirk of (some) English speakers. They see an unfamiliar foreign word with a j in it and assume it must be a zh sound. As if all foreign languages were French. Take, for instance 'Azerbaijan.' Nope, that's really a j-as-in-jump, not a j-as-in-bonjour. The Russians do not have a j-for-jump letter in their language but they fake it with d + zh (дж), which is actually what a j is in reality.

Now, you can listen to this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Zh-Beijing.ogg and decide what you think the most sensible English spelling is...I get Peiching. But I know that's not what it actually is, because that ch isn't really a ch.

In pinyin, the letter J is pronounced like 'jee' in the word 'jeep", with the flat of the tongue in the middle of your mouth, with the mouth also fairly wide.
In the name Bĕijīng, the falling-rising tone of the 'e' and the flat (long and level) tone on the second 'i' are what many miss, mispronouncing it as BAY-ZHING.

 

[takesome1]

OK, so you just (re-)proved my point. Thanks, I think ... I won't hold my breath for the apology.

I personally couldn't give a flying fornication whether 'many Americans' have ever heard of it, let alone whether they care. The point, as has been reiterated numerous times, is that this usage is now a real issue, as the question of whether Ukraine is a sovereign country, or a mere region of Russia about to be reintegrated, is coming to a crux.

That is funny. We're you personally insulted by the use of "The Ukraine? Or were you just being petty and looking for something to pick at someone about? I never debated whether it was correct or incorrect to use the word "The". I only debated the pettiness of the attack on those who were using the word.

To answer your last sentence, unless the US President and his allies grow a pair and stand up and do what is right, in a few weeks the government of Ukraine will be calling itself whatever Putin wants it to be called. The history written in Wikipedia changes and the name will change as well.

 

[dtaylor]

To answer your last sentence, unless the US President and his allies grow a pair and stand up and do what is right, in a few weeks the government of Ukraine will be calling itself whatever Putin wants it to be called. The history written in Wikipedia changes and the name will change as well.

This is not a question of "growing a pair." Putin put nukes on the table with his first speech. Russia remains capable of turning western Europe and America into glass parking lots. Well we got them too! won't matter one single bit after everything we know is destroyed. And Putin won't really do it! is not a strategy, it's wishful thinking. The time to prevent this was 8 years ago. 6 years ago. Even one year ago.

You are right that the name doesn't matter. Not one bit. Absent a miracle, Russia will win this. The best we can hope for at this point is that once they've won, Putin will be willing to trade an independent Ukraine for an end to sanctions and written/signed security guarantees. That's wishful thinking too. But it's at least plausible wishful thinking given the array of sanctions against Russia and the realities of their nuclear arsenal.

 

[sanj]

I just finished reading this thread. Must say it was much more fun than threads on 'Dynamic Range' Carry on!

 

[takesome1]

This is not a question of "growing a pair." Putin put nukes on the table with his first speech. Russia remains capable of turning western Europe and America into glass parking lots. Well we got them too! won't matter one single bit after everything we know is destroyed. And Putin won't really do it! is not a strategy, it's wishful thinking. The time to prevent this was 8 years ago. 6 years ago. Even one year ago.

You are right that the name doesn't matter. Not one bit. Absent a miracle, Russia will win this. The best we can hope for at this point is that once they've won, Putin will be willing to trade an independent Ukraine for an end to sanctions and written/signed security guarantees. That's wishful thinking too. But it's at least plausible wishful thinking given the array of sanctions against Russia and the realities of their nuclear arsenal.

What I didn't like about Biden's response, just immediately before the invasion.
He said he was going to hit him with sanctions, and were going to be tough about it.

Then he says in the same statement:
"Let me be clear: These are totally defensive moves on our part. We have no intention of fighting Russia," (cut from a CNN website)

Biden lost his bargaining power. He was very clear with Putin, he knew the consequences at that point and was willing to accept the sanctions.

The US's position of placing, or not placing troops was completely taken off the table.
This should have never been known to Putin, regardless of what we truly thought we should do.
Sure the US Citizens would be nervous without that reassurance. But didn't we elect our President to negotiate from the best possible position, sometimes protecting our interest is worth a little stress.

Weak negotiations on our part, and it makes us look weak.

The more we see what is truly going on, public opinion may change Biden's opinion. The show last night in Prime Time should have pulled at a few hearts. (I thought it sad and somewhat offensive last night that during the show one of the sponsors was begging for money for homeless dogs, at the same time we are watching families separated and scattered all over Europe)

 

[takesome1]

I just finished reading this thread. Must say it was much more fun than threads on 'Dynamic Range' Carry on!

Unlike the "Dynamic Range" debate where we have Sony and Nikon trolls bashing Canon, I am not sure we have had a true Russian troll bashing the situation.

 

[Kit.]

You reply when you have zero knowledge of recent history in the region. Why?

Maybe you should have checked your assumptions before replying?

There have already been two presidential elections in Ukraine since Euromaidan.

2019 Ukrainian presidential election - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

2014 Ukrainian presidential election - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[dtaylor]

Maybe you should have checked your assumptions before replying?

There have already been two presidential elections in Ukraine since Euromaidan.

Seriously?

The Russians in the east rejected the revolution which led to Poroshenko's 'snap election', which means they implicitly rejected the election results. Their subsequent separation and the resulting civil conflict means they didn't recognize or participate in Zelenskyy's election either. It doesn't matter if you, I, or anyone else thinks that they are wrong. They think they are right and they felt so strongly about it they left, and didn't come back even under threat of violence.

When that happens you can try to peacefully convince the separatists that they are wrong and should come back. Or you can let them go. Or you can resort to violence. Option 3 is always a rotten option. But it's especially stupid when the separatists are ethnic Russians living on your border with Russia. Sticking your head in the sand and saying but there was an election!!! is pretty much what led us to this point.

I feel for the Ukrainian people who are now fighting for their country. I feel for Zelenskyy who is courageously standing with his people trying to repel this. I feel for him even though I think he could have and should have taken steps to prevent this. And I despise Putin for blowing this situation wide open. Do not think I excuse Putin his evil because of my critiques of the governments of the west and of Ukraine.

But I will not stick my head in the sand. This is a shocking failure across three U.S. presidential administrations, the administrations of multiple European nations, and the last two Ukrainian presidents. No one was an adult in this situation. For 8 years no one considered the hard realities of the situation or the potential consequences of their actions.

 

[dtaylor]

What I didn't like about Biden's response, just immediately before the invasion.
He said he was going to hit him with sanctions, and were going to be tough about it.

Then he says in the same statement:
"Let me be clear: These are totally defensive moves on our part. We have no intention of fighting Russia," (cut from a CNN website)

I definitely see your point here. And I would be inclined to agree if this situation involved a power other than Russia. I'll be up front that I believe there is a lot of blame which can be placed on Biden in this situation, dating back to the Obama administration. But I can't critique him on this point. There's no way he was willing to go to war with our only nuclear peer over this, nor should he be. Leaving it on the table at the last minute is a bluff that Putin would have called. After that why would Putin believe anything Biden had to say? This only would have made Biden and the U.S. look weaker to Putin and his generals, and to the world.

The US's position of placing, or not placing troops was completely taken off the table.
This should have never been known to Putin, regardless of what we truly thought we should do.

Again, I would probably agree with you if it was anyone else. Putin knew that was never on the table.

The more we see what is truly going on, public opinion may change Biden's opinion.

I hope to God not. I'm sorry, but the potential death toll and destruction to civilization is staggering. It cannot happen. And I despise any and every politician, any and every member of any western administration, who in any way misled Zelenskyy on this point. If Zelenskyy had known he would be on his own in this he might have taken steps which would have prevented it. Everyone who misled him has blood on their hands.

 

[takesome1]

I definitely see your point here. And I would be inclined to agree if this situation involved a power other than Russia. I'll be up front that I believe there is a lot of blame which can be placed on Biden in this situation, dating back to the Obama administration. But I can't critique him on this point. There's no way he was willing to go to war with our only nuclear peer over this, nor should he be. Leaving it on the table at the last minute is a bluff that Putin would have called. After that why would Putin believe anything Biden had to say? This only would have made Biden and the U.S. look weaker to Putin and his generals, and to the world.


Again, I would probably agree with you if it was anyone else. Putin knew that was never on the table.


I hope to God not. I'm sorry, but the potential death toll and destruction to civilization is staggering. It cannot happen. And I despise any and every politician, any and every member of any western administration, who in any way misled Zelenskyy on this point. If Zelenskyy had known he would be on his own in this he might have taken steps which would have prevented it. Everyone who misled him has blood on their hands.

I hear what you are saying, and Putin probably believes that Biden never would. He has looked weak on other issues, why would he stand up on this one. But if a a bluff is never played a bluff never works.

And if Zelensky had known the outcome?
Perhaps he would have known the Budapest Memorandum was not going to stop Russia and Ukraine would now be a nuclear power again.

"but the potential death toll and destruction to civilization is staggering. It cannot happen." It seems to be the position we have taken. It appears that very little is worth that type of conflict. Putin has said he takes nothing off the table. What non Nato country can Russia now invade without fear of the USA defending that country?

 

[dtaylor]

I hear what you are saying, and Putin probably believes that Biden never would. He has looked weak on other issues, why would he stand up on this one. But if a a bluff is never played a bluff never works.

Fair enough. Neither of us can predict that, and maybe, just maybe, the bluff would have worked and Russia would not have invaded.

And if Zelensky had known the outcome?
Perhaps he would have known the Budapest Memorandum was not going to stop Russia and Ukraine would now be a nuclear power again.

Well...as a mere citizen I don't want more nations to have nuclear weapons. But if I was the leader of a nation state, a nuclear weapon is the best way to insure that no one ever invades. Ukraine almost certainly regrets giving up their nukes for what is now a worthless piece of paper. I hate to say that, but reality is what it is, not what anyone might wish it to be.

"but the potential death toll and destruction to civilization is staggering. It cannot happen." It seems to be the position we have taken. It appears that very little is worth that type of conflict. Putin has said he takes nothing off the table. What non Nato country can Russia now invade without fear of the USA defending that country?

If they invade more non-NATO states concurrent with, or immediately after, this invasion then they run the very real risk that NATO will decide there is no choice but to go to war. If they do nothing after this and 10 years down the road some other altercation results in a Russian invasion of a single non-NATO state, they'll probably get away with it.

That's been the historical reality though since roughly the end of World War II. After the treaty organizations were formed, NATO states didn't touch Warsaw Pact states and Warsaw Pact states didn't touch NATO states. Otherwise both the U.S. and Russia invaded states without consequence from the other power. I'm not trying to create equivalence here. Some invasions could be morally justified and others not so much. Just pointing out that reality hasn't changed. If Russia decides they have reason to invade a non-NATO state there's not much we're willing to do about it, even if their reasons are nonsense and their actions are evil. This has been true for a long time in both directions.

 

[AlanF]

I just finished reading this thread. Must say it was much more fun than threads on 'Dynamic Range' Carry on!

I have read this thread too. It is fortunate for humanity that some here spend their time fighting over Dynamic Range rather than being in charge of international politics.

 

[takesome1]

THAT makes the US look not just strong, but nearly god-like.

Sure Biden did exactly what he said he would do. Russia has the expertise to know what the impact of the action would be.
"god like" hardly. The conflict will end, Russia's economy will recover.
I understand your scared of Putin. If you run like a sheep you will be chased by wolves.

 

[Ozarker]

Not to get political. But I take what you supposedly quoted as meaning that the US response is to weak. Budapest Agreement.

He was, I think, referring to the losing and former president. That stable genius. The chosen one. The dolt.

 

[takesome1]

He was, I think, referring to the losing and former president. That stable genius. The chosen one. The dolt.

A person can only blame the former so long.

 

[neuroanatomist]

A person can only blame the former so long.

A person can be blamed for making idiotic statements forever, particularly when there are indelible records of them. That applies equally to presidents and forum posters, and there have been some noteworthy examples in this thread.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Also, I believe you just assigned me a gender. Are you sure on that one, some would take offense if you missed the mark. Would it be similar and wrong if I were to believe you were a "she" based on you possibly having an educational background similar to Blossom's. This is not an insult either, she is a very intelligent lady.

Incidentally, to close the loop on this — yes, I did. It was intentional and based on an assumption that I was assigning you (and @mjg79) a gender that you did not choose for yourself. As you say, some would take offense at another using a pronoun that they did not want applied to themselves. It's disrespectful. As is using an article in the name of a country that the country does not want applied to itself. That was kinda the point.

 

[takesome1]

Incidentally, to close the loop on this — yes, I did. It was intentional and based on an assumption that I was assigning you (and @mjg79) a gender that you did not choose for yourself. As you say, some would take offense at another using a pronoun that they did not want applied to themselves. It's disrespectful. As is using an article in the name of a country that the country does not want applied to itself. That was kinda the point.

Keeping in mind, I never referred to Ukraine as "The" Ukraine. My point was never whether it was correct, or incorrect, rather the rudeness toward those those who did not know that they should not use "The Ukraine".

For you assigning gender, I took no offense. I am not that Politically Correct.

 

[takesome1]

A person can be blamed for making idiotic statements forever, particularly when there are indelible records of them. That applies equally to presidents and forum posters, and there have been some noteworthy examples in this thread.

True, but no matter what you post, I post or anyone else posts on this thread there is no impact in Ukraine or that situation.
Fourteen months in, how many of those idiotic statements from past Presidents or their actions impact this situation?
It seems to me this is all Bidens to deal with.
Of course it was influenced over the last decade by US and NATO policies.