Predictions on What to Expect From Canon in 2016

[neuroanatomist]

All cameras with a Digic 7 processor will have the capability of shooting 4K video. So, if all of these cameras are projected to include a Digic 7, then all of them will shoot 4K.

Dual Digic 5+ gives the capability to shoot 4K video, so by your logic cameras with Dual Digic 5+ or the faster Dual Digic 6 should shoot 4K. The fact that only one of the five cameras with those processors actually does shoot 4K indicated that your logic is flawed.

The Digic 7 is the stills equivalent of the Digic DV5, in other words it will have a 4K encoder BUILT INTO the processor. The XC10 can shoot 4K without having thermal issues, so the same will apply to every other camera that uses the Digic 7/DV5 processor family.

Digic 5 processors DO NOT have a hardware encoder for 4K, it is done in software only. Neither does Digic 6. Digic 6 (and the corresponding Digic DV4) introduced 60p HD, and that is what it's hardware encoder does. If any camera containing those processors does 4K, it is done in firmware, not hardware, and that is why you needed multiple processors to handle the load and large bodies to fit into the thermal envelope.

If you look at the entire history of Digic processors, where a particular video format is implemented in hardware for that particular processor, the format is available for all cameras that have the processor.

But hey, let us completely ignore Canon's entire history with Digic, and pretend that something else will happen.

If these cameras have Digic 7, they will be able to shoot 4K as well. Perhaps not great 4K, but they will be able to do it.

But hey, let us completely ignore Canon's entire history of excluding (for marketing reasons) features of which products are technically capable. If you'd stopped at 'any camera with Digic 7 will be capable of shooting 4K' that makes sense. But to say they all will shoot 4K is not necessarily true.

Why isn't the 430EX III-RT an optical master?

 

[jeffa4444]

All cameras with a Digic 7 processor will have the capability of shooting 4K video. So, if all of these cameras are projected to include a Digic 7, then all of them will shoot 4K.

Dual Digic 5+ gives the capability to shoot 4K video, so by your logic cameras with Dual Digic 5+ or the faster Dual Digic 6 should shoot 4K. The fact that only one of the five cameras with those processors actually does shoot 4K indicated that your logic is flawed.

The Digic 7 is the stills equivalent of the Digic DV5, in other words it will have a 4K encoder BUILT INTO the processor. The XC10 can shoot 4K without having thermal issues, so the same will apply to every other camera that uses the Digic 7/DV5 processor family.

Digic 5 processors DO NOT have a hardware encoder for 4K, it is done in software only. Neither does Digic 6. Digic 6 (and the corresponding Digic DV4) introduced 60p HD, and that is what it's hardware encoder does. If any camera containing those processors does 4K, it is done in firmware, not hardware, and that is why you needed multiple processors to handle the load and large bodies to fit into the thermal envelope.

If you look at the entire history of Digic processors, where a particular video format is implemented in hardware for that particular processor, the format is available for all cameras that have the processor.

But hey, let us completely ignore Canon's entire history with Digic, and pretend that something else will happen.

If these cameras have Digic 7, they will be able to shoot 4K as well. Perhaps not great 4K, but they will be able to do it.

But hey, let us completely ignore Canon's entire history of excluding (for marketing reasons) features of which products are technically capable. If you'd stopped at 'any camera with Digic 7 will be capable of shooting 4K' that makes sense. But to say they all will shoot 4K is not necessarily true.

Why isn't the 430EX III-RT an optical master?

Price pure & simply

 

[neuroanatomist]

Why isn't the 430EX III-RT an optical master?

Price pure & simply

Erm...huh? Not sure what you're saying - are you suggesting that adding optical master capability to the 430EX III-RT would add to the cost?

 

[Don Haines]

All cameras with a Digic 7 processor will have the capability of shooting 4K video. So, if all of these cameras are projected to include a Digic 7, then all of them will shoot 4K.

It's more than just processing power. The storage/card slots need to be up to speed, not to mention the sensor read out speed and heat dissipation capability. And thats without even mentioning the marketing department.

SDXC UHSII cards are pretty fast. Any camera with a modern slot interface will have no issues with the data rates involved.

The XC10 can do 4K, is roughly the size of your typical DSLR, and it has a single processor. So, obviously Canon have already solved the read out speed and thermal envelope issues.

Even a GoPro can do 4K video.....

The problem with processing video in a DSLR comes down to the type of processing used. You can use a general purpose CPU, or you can use dedicated hardware. Using dedicated hardware takes a lot less power and generates a lot less heat in the camera. A GoPro has dedicated hardware.... a DSLR uses a general purpose CPU. This gives the DSLR a lot more flexibility, but at the expense of speed and power...

Of course, nothing stops Canon from doing both..... Take a 1DX with dual processors and either add a third processor or change one to a video codec and you have a battery-efficient 4K monster.....

 

[AvTvM]

All cameras with a Digic 7 processor will have the capability of shooting 4K video. So, if all of these cameras are projected to include a Digic 7, then all of them will shoot 4K.

Dual Digic 5+ gives the capability to shoot 4K video, so by your logic cameras with Dual Digic 5+ or the faster Dual Digic 6 should shoot 4K. The fact that only one of the five cameras with those processors actually does shoot 4K indicated that your logic is flawed.

No. It just highlight Canons unwillingness and inability - as in so many other areas and dimensions.
(Although I don't care for any sort of video capture at all and only want a really decent Canon stills camera without mirror).

 

[Don Haines]

All cameras with a Digic 7 processor will have the capability of shooting 4K video. So, if all of these cameras are projected to include a Digic 7, then all of them will shoot 4K.

Dual Digic 5+ gives the capability to shoot 4K video, so by your logic cameras with Dual Digic 5+ or the faster Dual Digic 6 should shoot 4K. The fact that only one of the five cameras with those processors actually does shoot 4K indicated that your logic is flawed.

No. It just highlight Canons unwillingness and inability - as in so many other areas and dimensions.
(Although I don't care for any sort of video capture at all and only want a really decent Canon stills camera without mirror).

There is also the possibility that the problem is heat....

 

[Tugela]

All cameras with a Digic 7 processor will have the capability of shooting 4K video. So, if all of these cameras are projected to include a Digic 7, then all of them will shoot 4K.

Dual Digic 5+ gives the capability to shoot 4K video, so by your logic cameras with Dual Digic 5+ or the faster Dual Digic 6 should shoot 4K. The fact that only one of the five cameras with those processors actually does shoot 4K indicated that your logic is flawed.

The Digic 7 is the stills equivalent of the Digic DV5, in other words it will have a 4K encoder BUILT INTO the processor. The XC10 can shoot 4K without having thermal issues, so the same will apply to every other camera that uses the Digic 7/DV5 processor family.

Digic 5 processors DO NOT have a hardware encoder for 4K, it is done in software only. Neither does Digic 6. Digic 6 (and the corresponding Digic DV4) introduced 60p HD, and that is what it's hardware encoder does. If any camera containing those processors does 4K, it is done in firmware, not hardware, and that is why you needed multiple processors to handle the load and large bodies to fit into the thermal envelope.

If you look at the entire history of Digic processors, where a particular video format is implemented in hardware for that particular processor, the format is available for all cameras that have the processor.

But hey, let us completely ignore Canon's entire history with Digic, and pretend that something else will happen.

If these cameras have Digic 7, they will be able to shoot 4K as well. Perhaps not great 4K, but they will be able to do it.

But hey, let us completely ignore Canon's entire history of excluding (for marketing reasons) features of which products are technically capable. If you'd stopped at 'any camera with Digic 7 will be capable of shooting 4K' that makes sense. But to say they all will shoot 4K is not necessarily true.

Why isn't the 430EX III-RT an optical master?

I will bow to your wisdom, but first, satisfy my curiosity. Can you name any Canon camera that has failed to deliver on at least the native capability of the hardware encoder in the processor?

 

[PureClassA]

I think Canon could easily hit a homerun simply allowing DSLR 1080p RAW output via HDMI to an external recorder. The hardware can obviously do it, given MagicLantern's success. I don't know what the limitation is between sending it to a CF card (like now via ML) vs sending it HDMI. Someone smarter than I could probably elaborate more. But it seems the camera is capable of slinging the data (5D2 5D3 etc...).

Doing this still keeps a sacred Canon distance between, say, a 5D3 shooting video at 1080p, and a Cinema series with all the true cinema bells and whistles and then 4k in upper models. Even if they didn't have 4k on a 5D4 and just allowed for 1080p RAW output via HDMI would be great.

 

[Tugela]

All cameras with a Digic 7 processor will have the capability of shooting 4K video. So, if all of these cameras are projected to include a Digic 7, then all of them will shoot 4K.

It's more than just processing power. The storage/card slots need to be up to speed, not to mention the sensor read out speed and heat dissipation capability. And thats without even mentioning the marketing department.

SDXC UHSII cards are pretty fast. Any camera with a modern slot interface will have no issues with the data rates involved.

The XC10 can do 4K, is roughly the size of your typical DSLR, and it has a single processor. So, obviously Canon have already solved the read out speed and thermal envelope issues.

Even a GoPro can do 4K video.....

The problem with processing video in a DSLR comes down to the type of processing used. You can use a general purpose CPU, or you can use dedicated hardware. Using dedicated hardware takes a lot less power and generates a lot less heat in the camera. A GoPro has dedicated hardware.... a DSLR uses a general purpose CPU. This gives the DSLR a lot more flexibility, but at the expense of speed and power...

Of course, nothing stops Canon from doing both..... Take a 1DX with dual processors and either add a third processor or change one to a video codec and you have a battery-efficient 4K monster.....

DSLR processors are not general purpose CPUs, they have dedicated hardware built in to handle video. This is particularly true of the ones Canon uses. That is the reason why firmware upgrades generally can't change the encoding done by the processor in consumer models. If you want to do anything more than what the hardware encoder has been designed for, you have to do it in software, and for that you need extra processors.

The processor is designed specifically for the task. For that reason the overall capabilities of a camera (from the point of view of video) using a particular generation of processor will be the same for all cameras that use that processor, unless they have additional computational capabilities added. We already know that the Digic 7/DV5 family has the capability to do basic 4K video, so the hardware encoders are present without question.

If a Canon camera has a Digic 7 processor in it, it will shoot 4K 30p video, provided that a modern storage interface has been included. Higher frame rates in 4K and higher resolutions, however, will not happen without extra hardware in the design.

 

[scyrene]

(Although I don't care for any sort of video capture at all and only want a really decent Canon stills camera without mirror).

No way, really? We had no idea.

 

[Tugela]

I think Canon could easily hit a homerun simply allowing DSLR 1080p RAW output via HDMI to an external recorder. The hardware can obviously do it, given MagicLantern's success. I don't know what the limitation is between sending it to a CF card (like now via ML) vs sending it HDMI. Someone smarter than I could probably elaborate more. But it seems the camera is capable of slinging the data (5D2 5D3 etc...).

Doing this still keeps a sacred Canon distance between, say, a 5D3 shooting video at 1080p, and a Cinema series with all the true cinema bells and whistles and then 4k in upper models. Even if they didn't have 4k on a 5D4 and just allowed for 1080p RAW output via HDMI would be great.

Uncompressed output is the least demanding method of encoding. Any camera is capable of doing that, provided that there is a mechanism to read the data stream (such as clean HDMI).

 

[Don Haines]

DSLR processors are not general purpose CPUs, they have dedicated hardware built in to handle video. This is particularly true of the ones Canon uses. That is the reason why firmware upgrades generally can't change the encoding done by the processor in consumer models. If you want to do anything more than what the hardware encoder has been designed for, you have to do it in software, and for that you need extra processors.

The processor is designed specifically for the task. For that reason the overall capabilities of a camera (from the point of view of video) using a particular generation of processor will be the same for all cameras that use that processor, unless they have additional computational capabilities added. We already know that the Digic 7/DV5 family has the capability to do basic 4K video, so the hardware encoders are present without question.

If a Canon camera has a Digic 7 processor in it, it will shoot 4K 30p video, provided that a modern storage interface has been included. Higher frame rates in 4K and higher resolutions, however, will not happen without extra hardware in the design.

I did not know that. I thought they were a RISC design...., but what you say makes sense.

 

[neuroanatomist]

All cameras with a Digic 7 processor will have the capability of shooting 4K video. So, if all of these cameras are projected to include a Digic 7, then all of them will shoot 4K.

Dual Digic 5+ gives the capability to shoot 4K video, so by your logic cameras with Dual Digic 5+ or the faster Dual Digic 6 should shoot 4K. The fact that only one of the five cameras with those processors actually does shoot 4K indicated that your logic is flawed.

The Digic 7 is the stills equivalent of the Digic DV5, in other words it will have a 4K encoder BUILT INTO the processor. The XC10 can shoot 4K without having thermal issues, so the same will apply to every other camera that uses the Digic 7/DV5 processor family.

Digic 5 processors DO NOT have a hardware encoder for 4K, it is done in software only. Neither does Digic 6. Digic 6 (and the corresponding Digic DV4) introduced 60p HD, and that is what it's hardware encoder does. If any camera containing those processors does 4K, it is done in firmware, not hardware, and that is why you needed multiple processors to handle the load and large bodies to fit into the thermal envelope.

If you look at the entire history of Digic processors, where a particular video format is implemented in hardware for that particular processor, the format is available for all cameras that have the processor.

But hey, let us completely ignore Canon's entire history with Digic, and pretend that something else will happen.

If these cameras have Digic 7, they will be able to shoot 4K as well. Perhaps not great 4K, but they will be able to do it.

But hey, let us completely ignore Canon's entire history of excluding (for marketing reasons) features of which products are technically capable. If you'd stopped at 'any camera with Digic 7 will be capable of shooting 4K' that makes sense. But to say they all will shoot 4K is not necessarily true.

Why isn't the 430EX III-RT an optical master?

I will bow to your wisdom, but first, satisfy my curiosity. Can you name any Canon camera that has failed to deliver on at least the native capability of the hardware encoder in the processor?

If you like...

Canon stated that the Digic 4 processor encodes 1080p @ 30 fps. The 5DII, T2i/550D, and 60D (among others) all have Digic 4, and all shoot 1080p @ 30 fps. The T1i/500D, which launched just a few months after the 'video revolutionary' 5DII, has Digic 4 and shoots 1080p, but is limited to 20 fps (it shoots 720p @ 30 fps). The 50D, which launched just a few months before the 5DII, has Digic 4 and doesn't shoot video at all...or at least it didn't until 2013 when Magic Lantern hacked it to shoot 1080p (albeit at only 24 fps for short clips due to limitations in the buffer).

So that's two Canon dSLRs that fail to deliver the native capability of the hardware encoder in the processor. But you asked about 'Canon cameras' so I'll add that Digic 4 was also used in a bunch of PowerShots, such as the G10 that launched around the time of the 5DII and manages only 480p @ 30 fps but also the SX1 IS that launched around the time of the T1i and does shoot 1080p @ 30 fps.

 

[scottgoh]

love a 5D4 and a 1dX2

 

[AvTvM]

So far I was under the impression that Canon uses different (hatdware) versions of same numbered DIGIC processors. E.g. a Powershot Digic 4 was not equal to a DSLR Digic 4 in capability/functionality. That may also explain the differences between different Canon cameras outlined by Neuro in his earlier post. Since we are talking Canon, it may however also be a combination of both hardware "differentiation" and firmware crippling that brings about those differences between various Canon cameras equipped with same number Digic processors.

 

[neuroanatomist]

So far I was under the impression that Canon uses different (hatdware) versions of same numbered DIGIC processors. E.g. a Powershot Digic 4 was not equal to a DSLR Digic 4 in capability/functionality. That may also explain the differences between different Canon cameras outlined by Neuro in his earlier post. Since we are talking Canon, it may however also be a combination of both hardware "differentiation" and firmware crippling that brings about those differences between various Canon cameras equipped with same number Digic processors.

I suspect that economies of scale make it rather unlikely there are several different versions of a Digic processor. Firmware-based deactivation of certain features is certainly a possibility.

Either way, it supports the contention that the statement, "If it has Digic 7 it will shoot 4K," is likely false, whether that's through firmware 'crippling' of a single chip called Digic 7 or different hardware chips all called Digic 7.

Also, note that I pointed out dSLRs with Digic 4 that both could and could not shoot the stated capability of 1080p @ 30 fps, and I also pointed out different PowerShot models with Digic 4 where one could and the other could not. So for the different hardware with the same Digic designation, there would have to be more 'flavors' than just dSLR vs. PowerShot for a given Digic chip, but rather several varieties for each. Finally, the ML hack of the 50D suggests that the capability is there but turned off in firmware, as does the outlier of the T1i being limited to 20 fps at 1080p.

 

[rfdesigner]

So far I was under the impression that Canon uses different (hatdware) versions of same numbered DIGIC processors. E.g. a Powershot Digic 4 was not equal to a DSLR Digic 4 in capability/functionality. That may also explain the differences between different Canon cameras outlined by Neuro in his earlier post. Since we are talking Canon, it may however also be a combination of both hardware "differentiation" and firmware crippling that brings about those differences between various Canon cameras equipped with same number Digic processors.

I suspect that economies of scale make it rather unlikely there are several different versions of a Digic processor. Firmware-based deactivation of certain features is certainly a possibility.

Either way, it supports the contention that the statement, "If it has Digic 7 it will shoot 4K," is likely false, whether that's through firmware 'crippling' of a single chip called Digic 7 or different hardware chips all called Digic 7.

Also, note that I pointed out dSLRs with Digic 4 that both could and could not shoot the stated capability of 1080p @ 30 fps, and I also pointed out different PowerShot models with Digic 4 where one could and the other could not. So for the different hardware with the same Digic designation, there would have to be more 'flavors' than just dSLR vs. PowerShot for a given Digic chip, but rather several varieties for each. Finally, the ML hack of the 50D suggests that the capability is there but turned off in firmware, as does the outlier of the T1i being limited to 20 fps at 1080p.

You also may alo find it's a case of different packaging of chips.

i.e. the DSLR Digic4 is in a 300pin 11x11mm package, while the Point and shoot chip is in a 100pin 7x7mm.

So you may get a smaller form factor for the smaller camera, but you also lose certain interfaces... a fast parallel interface on the DSLR is replaced by a slower serial interface, or the parallel interface is halved in width and now takes two cycles per operation. This doesn't just affect the size of the Digic chip, but can also impact the size of anything it's connected to and the amount of PCB area needed for routing.

This sort of thing is quite common on many commercial ICs.

 

[neuroanatomist]

So far I was under the impression that Canon uses different (hatdware) versions of same numbered DIGIC processors. E.g. a Powershot Digic 4 was not equal to a DSLR Digic 4 in capability/functionality. That may also explain the differences between different Canon cameras outlined by Neuro in his earlier post. Since we are talking Canon, it may however also be a combination of both hardware "differentiation" and firmware crippling that brings about those differences between various Canon cameras equipped with same number Digic processors.

I suspect that economies of scale make it rather unlikely there are several different versions of a Digic processor. Firmware-based deactivation of certain features is certainly a possibility.

Either way, it supports the contention that the statement, "If it has Digic 7 it will shoot 4K," is likely false, whether that's through firmware 'crippling' of a single chip called Digic 7 or different hardware chips all called Digic 7.

Also, note that I pointed out dSLRs with Digic 4 that both could and could not shoot the stated capability of 1080p @ 30 fps, and I also pointed out different PowerShot models with Digic 4 where one could and the other could not. So for the different hardware with the same Digic designation, there would have to be more 'flavors' than just dSLR vs. PowerShot for a given Digic chip, but rather several varieties for each. Finally, the ML hack of the 50D suggests that the capability is there but turned off in firmware, as does the outlier of the T1i being limited to 20 fps at 1080p.

You also may alo find it's a case of different packaging of chips.

i.e. the DSLR Digic4 is in a 300pin 11x11mm package, while the Point and shoot chip is in a 100pin 7x7mm.

You get a smaller form factor for the smaller camera, but you also lose certain interfaces... a fast parallel interface on the DSLR is replaced by a slower serial interface, or the parallel interface is halved in width and now takes two cycles per operation.

This sort of thing is quite common on many commercial ICs.

Thanks, good point. Still supports the idea that saying any Digic 7 camera will shoot 4K is incorrect.

 

[rfdesigner]

So far I was under the impression that Canon uses different (hatdware) versions of same numbered DIGIC processors. E.g. a Powershot Digic 4 was not equal to a DSLR Digic 4 in capability/functionality. That may also explain the differences between different Canon cameras outlined by Neuro in his earlier post. Since we are talking Canon, it may however also be a combination of both hardware "differentiation" and firmware crippling that brings about those differences between various Canon cameras equipped with same number Digic processors.

I suspect that economies of scale make it rather unlikely there are several different versions of a Digic processor. Firmware-based deactivation of certain features is certainly a possibility.

Either way, it supports the contention that the statement, "If it has Digic 7 it will shoot 4K," is likely false, whether that's through firmware 'crippling' of a single chip called Digic 7 or different hardware chips all called Digic 7.

Also, note that I pointed out dSLRs with Digic 4 that both could and could not shoot the stated capability of 1080p @ 30 fps, and I also pointed out different PowerShot models with Digic 4 where one could and the other could not. So for the different hardware with the same Digic designation, there would have to be more 'flavors' than just dSLR vs. PowerShot for a given Digic chip, but rather several varieties for each. Finally, the ML hack of the 50D suggests that the capability is there but turned off in firmware, as does the outlier of the T1i being limited to 20 fps at 1080p.

You also may alo find it's a case of different packaging of chips.

i.e. the DSLR Digic4 is in a 300pin 11x11mm package, while the Point and shoot chip is in a 100pin 7x7mm.

You get a smaller form factor for the smaller camera, but you also lose certain interfaces... a fast parallel interface on the DSLR is replaced by a slower serial interface, or the parallel interface is halved in width and now takes two cycles per operation.

This sort of thing is quite common on many commercial ICs.

Thanks, good point. Still supports the idea that saying any Digic 7 camera will shoot 4K is incorrect.

agreed

 

[AvTvM]

Thanks, good point. Still supports the idea that saying any Digic 7 camera will shoot 4K is incorrect.

In the literal sense: Yes. I know, it s of utmost importance for you to "be right". ;D
In the real world: No.
Canon could - or should be able to - implement 4k in any camera with a Digic 7 processor. Different limitations might apply - eg. max. fps rate ddepending on interface speed/storage media used, or maximum duration of 4k capture depending on cooling possibilities/heat sinks in a specific camera body etc.
But generally 4k capture should technically be possible in any Digic 7 Canon camera. They just don't unlock/implement it.