*UPDATED* Is This The Canon EOS M5?

[ahsanford]

Re: Is This The Canon EOS M5?

true, but you can pick up a T90 and it feels like any other digital canon.

AE-1 not so much, but the T90 was the birth of modern computerized Canon EOS cameras and ergonomic design.

Sure, but you're in chunky SLR grip fantasy land with that one. 100% agree with you, but no way that will fly with the "It's gotta fit in my pocket" camp (a.k.a. the 'reasonable' folks ;D).

Of course, there's little reason not to have a huge chunky grip once you leave the silly world of "I only need that great 22mm f/2 lens for my modular lens system!" Once you break the shackles of that fantasy, having a proper grip like the 5D3 makes a ton of sense:

• Once you leave pancake dream land, the grip will not be larger (front to back) than the EOS-M body + even a modest kit zoom lens purpose built for EF-M.
• a 5D3-like grip will fit your hands comfortably. (Revolutionary, I know.)
• You could have a lovely top LCD for quick setting of controls that uses less power than the EVF or LCD.
• You could put a bigger battery in there.

Just for fun, I frankensteined in the 5D3 grip on an EOS M3. (It's just to make a point, I recognize what a hot mess that looks like.) The point is this: I like to keep my camera packed in my bag with a lens on it, so the idea that a small grip 'keeps things small' generally only applies if you have the pancake on there or no lens at all (as a second body for travel). So the minute you put even a basically competent EF-M zoom on it (let alone an EF adaptor and bigger lenses), your space savings of that thin grip are effectively lost.

So Canon might be wise to avail themselves of all that front-to-back space and put a chunky SLR grip on it for all the reasons I listed above. 'Small' in mirrorless is a mirage unless you enjoy Canon's comprehensive EF-M pancake lineup... of one lens.

- A

 

[Luds34]

A fixed lens body can bury the lens in there to a somewhat dramatic effect.

- A

Yes, which is why the new Fuji XF 23mm f/2 lens is actually slightly longer then their 35mm f/2, in whatever case, it will stick out much farther then the integrated lens on the X100 line.

 

[Luds34]

say no to retro. What was necessary, right and possible in the analogue age means nothing but poor ergonomics in digital cameras. And bad looks too. The latter statement is subjective. ;D

Well so is the first statement.

I enjoy shooting both systems, each have little pluses and minuses when it comes to ergonomics. With the Canon, you need to decide in your head how you are shooting, aperture priority, shutter speed, priority, etc. You set the mode, and the dials/wheels will behave differently depending on the mode you chose. With the "retro"/Fuji, you have dedicated controls for aperture, shutter, even ISO and adjust them as you see fit. Don't care about a certain aspect, leave it in auto. The "mode" is implied at that point. One could (and many do) argue that the retro way is more intuitive.

People have a strong preference to one or the other, I'm equally comfortable and enjoy both sets of ergo/control.

As to this potential M5, I hear a lot of complaining. To me this looks like a natural evolution of the M line, and even more, an M that enthusiasts (like many on this board) can get a little excited about. An EVF? An 80D sensor with greater DR and most importantly DPAF?

Looks like a nifty little travel cam to this guy. Canon just needs to get the EF-M line going!

 

[LDS]

Re: Is This The Canon EOS M5?

I'm not saying go full retro like Fuji . because that's simply moronic and removes canon haptics and ergonomics .. but classic AE-1 styling? T90 styling? why not?

The AE-1 was innovative in its use of electronics, but its design was still quite alike the mechanical cameras of the era:

http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/canon/fdresources/SLRs/ae1/index1.htm

The A-1 was the first timid step towards a more modern design, with its small "action grip", and the "multi-functional" front dial (one of the firsts you could actually use while looking in the viewfinder):

http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/canon/fdresources/SLRs/a1/html/map.htm

The T90 designed with a lot of inputs from "organic bio-designer" Luigi Colani, inaugurated the actual design of SLRs, which is one of the best things happened to cameras, IMHO. First Canon attempts like the T70 were far inferior.

As much as I like old cameras (and collect some of them), I found retro designs just more cumbersome to handle and use. Although I discovered some novices and less experienced users find them more "friendly", because it's easier to tell and find what dial does what, and what is set to.

 

[ashmadux]

• Looking forward to the announcement...and the eventual price drop 8)
  
  Also looking forward to:
  
  • A heavy-ish metal casing not prone to the shakes/blurry images, ala M3
  • Return of the full touch interface - the powershot firmware stinks, and is slow as death
  • ANY third party willing to make a grip - ala M1. M3 had no such option
  
  Not looking forward to:
  
  • TERRIBLE decision to again use vertical only flip screen. why bother with this when can just copy the G5's great form factor. That flip screen ROCKS. Vertical screens are useless for vertical shooting. Arghhh.
  • battery lockout from 3rd parties- ala M3
  • weak battery life from evf, canon M batteries
    Almost certain to be useless servo+raw

Lets see what happens...

(drum roll..)

 

[Tugela]

It looks like a more sensible ergonomic design than the current iterations of the EOS-M series.

However, I suspect that the internal electronics will still have meh performance though. Being cutting edge is not the Canon way sadly.

 

[Fatfaso]

Doesn't matter how it looks. It's not going to be a viable option unless Canon makes more dedicated lens for the system. Hard to see Canon focusing on EF-S and EF-M simultaneously.

 

[docsmith]

Just thinking about what it would take for me to buy this. I currently have the M1, but do not use it much. Mostly as a backup when traveling and for some instances where I want small. But, as with the 18-55, it isn't pocketable, I am very tempted by the G7X II.

So, what would get me to buy this camera....battery and AF. It needs to have enough juice to obtain AF quickly when using the adaptor and my EF lenses. If it can't do this, I think I'll go with either the 80D or 7DII as my back up body and G7x as my small camera.

 

[Sporgon]

• A heavy-ish metal casing not prone to the shakes/blurry images, ala M3
  

• 
  
  You may have a valid point here. I'm beginning to think that the M3 is so light when you mount it on a light tripod the shutter action is enough to cause shake. I'm in the rather ludicrous position of using the M3 on my 17 lb studio tripod to get the best results out of it.

 

[deleteme]

Re: Is This The Canon EOS M5?

Hope it won't be too bulky otherwise it will lose its size advantage.

While a small size is desirable at times it is not necessarily the only advantage of a mirrorless design.
EVF, complete silence and accurate AF are all features that I prize in my mirrorless cameras in addition to their compact size.

The Leica SL did go against the grain in this regard by being quite large. one huge advantage in a larger body is the ability to use a larger battery. The current Achilles heel of mirrorless.

Furthermore, the demand for fast lenses and bigger batteries coupled with the immutability of physics will lead us to a bulkier camera despite starting with a small body.

 

[DtEW]

If this incorporates the 80D's DPAF, on-chip ADC sensor (possible) and can drive EF long lenses with an adapter... My (fairly extensive) A6000 kit is going to be up on the market.

(And I can wish for weather sealing, but I won't hold my breath.)

 

[AvTvM]

Doesn't matter how it looks. It's not going to be a viable option unless Canon makes more dedicated lens for the system. Hard to see Canon focusing on EF-S and EF-M simultaneously.

excuse me please, what additional EF-M lenses do you want? o am asking, because i can only think of a missing compact short tele/portrait prime. anything really fast (eg f/1.4) or beyond 200mm or below 15mm would be way to big and is already available as EF/EF-S lens.

there are 2 EF-M kit zooms, 1 tele zoom, 1 UWA zoom, 1 macro lens and a pancake WA prime. got them all (except 15-45) and am happy with resulting kit for all travel, city, street, outdoor/mountaineering/skiing, landscape, people/events.

i really do not understand the wish for more EF-M lenses. to
me the problem is entirely the lack of well-featured, technically fully competitive EOS cameras. all i want is a compact A6300 equivalent from canon with EF-M mount up front.

 

[ahsanford]

excuse me please, what additional EF-M lenses do you want? o am asking, because i can only think of a missing compact short tele/portrait prime. anything really fast (eg f/1.4) or beyond 200mm or below 15mm would be way to big and is already available as EF/EF-S lens.

there are 2 EF-M kit zooms, 1 tele zoom, 1 UWA zoom, 1 macro lens and a pancake WA prime. got them all (except 15-45) and am happy with resulting kit for all travel, city, street, outdoor/mountaineering/skiing, landscape, people/events.

i really do not understand the wish for more EF-M lenses. to
me the problem is entirely the lack of well-featured, technically fully competitive EOS cameras. all i want is a compact A6300 equivalent from canon with EF-M mount up front.

Size size size. 'More EF-M lenses please' = more smallest possible EF-M lenses, please. Sure, we an adapt our EF glass, but some of the combinations are unnecessarily large.

Consider these two good examples (below) of when Canon offered an EF-M variant of an EF-S lens -- the aggregate footprint was kept small by the decision to offer these lenses in EF-M. Similar EF-M sized options don't exist for many common lenses, like a nifty fifty equivalent (no, a 28mm f/3.5 macro does not count), a FF 85mm equivalent, etc.

I recognize EF-S itself has never been afforded any non-macro / non-pancake primes by Canon, but 24mm-85mm FF equivalent primes for EF-M could be attractively small in comparison.

- A

 

[asl]

If this incorporates the 80D's DPAF, on-chip ADC sensor (possible) and can drive EF long lenses with an adapter... My (fairly extensive) A6000 kit is going to be up on the market.

(And I can wish for weather sealing, but I won't hold my breath.)

And a couple of weather sealed M lenses, would be great for landscape
Also not holding my breath, but if Canon went all in with the mirrorless line maybe it could happen.

 

[ashmadux]

• A heavy-ish metal casing not prone to the shakes/blurry images, ala M3
  

• 
  
  You may have a valid point here. I'm beginning to think that the M3 is so light when you mount it on a light tripod the shutter action is enough to cause shake. I'm in the rather ludicrous position of using the M3 on my 17 lb studio tripod to get the best results out of it.

• 
  
  
  
  I tested the hell out of them(3), against my trusty M1+Phottix all metal grip.
  
  I put them directly against in other in a host of ultra-normal, non stressful shooting situation with the same lens. The M1 handles all of the same situations like cake. The M3 failed every single comparison. Getting ANY sharp images from the M3 just wasn't happening. Sadder is that even on a tripod, images where 'sharp-ish' at best.
  
  It drove me apeshat bonkers.
  
  Then after an incredibly difficult, HUGE amount of research, I found out that the image problems came from a combo of things:
  
  -body isnt heavy enough
  -hard shutter slap induces movement
  -24mp sensor is much more sensitive to ANY movement, so much higher shutter speeds are needed to get sharp images.
  
  Mix those together and its a sharpness disaster. The last point was the death note, because I use my M1 in many low shutter needed situations. There was no way i'd be able to use a body that required high shutter speeds at all times without keeping my iso way up there.
  
  
  Sad to let it go, but was basically unusable for me.
  

 

[Ditboy]

Overall this looks to answer some of my ergonomic problems I've had with the M3. When the G5 first came out, I checked it out hands-on and was pleased and thought it is how Canon would go. Just slightly bigger and shaped so that my grip doesn't activate the Menu button each time I grip it. (Solved that problem with a leather half case- extended the corner just enough) Post lugs-Thank you!!! I have never like the strap lugs, they don't allow much of a choice. I like straps that can be taken off or to have the ability to have several straps for different situations.

EF-M lenses. I really would like Canon to make some fast primes, but I don't see it. Those who say they would be as big as EF-S or EF lenses have never held any fast Rokinon primes. I just bought the Zhongyi Mitakon Speedmaster 35mm f 0.95 and while heavy for it's size, it is nowhere close to what the EF 50mm f 1.2L is, and a stop faster! I basically have two sets of lenses for the M3, the Canon lenses for use during the daylight, and the fast primes I use all the rest of time.

My biggest hopes are that Canon gives it the menu system of the xxD cameras. I use the M3 about 75% of the time over my 6D and 70D or a pool 7D mk2. Small, light and good IQ. The times I bring out the DSLR's is when I need speed. Whether, focus tracking or constantly changing situations. It is painfully slow to change anything in the menus, and there are several menu items that the xxD series have that are not there. Not being able to include "Format Card" in the" favorites" menu? Stupid! Not being able to turn off exposure simulation? Dumb. Keeps me from being able to use the M3 in the studio with strobes. You can use Canon's TTL, but then I have to take off the EVF-DC1. Really would like 1/8000 top end and 1/250 flash synch too so I can really use those fast primes wide open...

The nice thing is Canon is showing the world that the M line is here to stay, which will give confidence to third party lens makers to include the EF-M mounts in their lineups. Lots of lenses for APS-C cameras for Sony and Fuji that I would jump at the opportunity to buy, to help prove to Canon that EF-M lenses should be expanded. By the start of 2017, I very well could be adding the Rokinon 21mm f1.4 and the 50mm f1.2 to the 12mm f2 I already have, the Speedmaster 35mm f0.95 and the Canon FD 85 1.2 with adaptor. 5 really fast primes that would be in my bag forever and still not weigh as much as the 70-200 2.8L IS. If the M5 has enough horsepower to maintain live view for several FPS like the a6300 or Fuji X-t2, I will not look back...

 

[dlee13]

• A heavy-ish metal casing not prone to the shakes/blurry images, ala M3
  

• 
  
  You may have a valid point here. I'm beginning to think that the M3 is so light when you mount it on a light tripod the shutter action is enough to cause shake. I'm in the rather ludicrous position of using the M3 on my 17 lb studio tripod to get the best results out of it.

• 
  
  
  
  I tested the hell out of them(3), against my trusty M1+Phottix all metal grip.
  
  I put them directly against in other in a host of ultra-normal, non stressful shooting situation with the same lens. The M1 handles all of the same situations like cake. The M3 failed every single comparison. Getting ANY sharp images from the M3 just wasn't happening. Sadder is that even on a tripod, images where 'sharp-ish' at best.
  
  It drove me apeshat bonkers.
  
  Then after an incredibly difficult, HUGE amount of research, I found out that the image problems came from a combo of things:
  
  -body isnt heavy enough
  -hard shutter slap induces movement
  -24mp sensor is much more sensitive to ANY movement, so much higher shutter speeds are needed to get sharp images.
  
  Mix those together and its a sharpness disaster. The last point was the death note, because I use my M1 in many low shutter needed situations. There was no way i'd be able to use a body that required high shutter speeds at all times without keeping my iso way up there.
  
  
  Sad to let it go, but was basically unusable for me.
  

Here I am thinking it was just me.

I find I have no issues using the kit lens and getting sharp images when IS is on, but with other EF lenses I have struggled. I'm too used to holding it up against my head to stabilze it so not having an EVF makes it hard for me to hold such a light body still.

 

[rocketsurgeon]

Re: Is This The Canon EOS M5?

Canon is doomed. :

Nah, I think they'll be ok.

 

[AvTvM]

i cannot imagine Canon bringing big+expensive fast f/1.4, f/1.2 or f/0.95 EF-M lenses. EF-M is a crop sensor image circle, just like EF-S. it gets those consumer (!) lenses, that are mostly used and can fully utilize size advantage of short flange distance. even i understand and agree with that decision by Canon. ;-)

mirrorless Canon "L" lenses will come, but only once Canon finally recognizes that mirrorslappers definitely have no future and finally launches their FF-sensor mirrorless system line ... whenever that may be. those new native "EF-X" lenses will replace EF lenses and mount. just like sony FE replaced sony A-mount lenses (although sony to date still refuses to officially admit this). EF-M like EF-S and sony E-mount will aleays be a limited lens line for crop sensor cameras, optimized for compact size and affordable prices. canon will (have to) follow the same path taken by sony.

luckily the transition from EF to EF-X will be much less painful than FD to EF was. thanks to the shorter flange distance, all existing EF lenses will remaim fully useable via very simple snd cheap adapters, like the EF/EF-M adapter.

for a kick-ass Canon FF mirrorless cam i would be prepared to buy lenses as expensive as today's EF L-glass. for a crop sensor system i will never consider lenses costing a grand or more. one of many teasons why i wont even consider buying Fuji stuff.

 

[lw]

Looks very much like a Panasonic GH4 (soon to be GH5)
Could well end up being very similar in size too.

I image that the choice will be relatively straightforward for some.
APS-C vs 4K

http://camerasize.com/compact/#525,599,448,ha,f