Here is what Canon is announcing next, including the EOS R7, EOS R10 and RF-S lenses [CR3]

jam05

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Mar 12, 2019
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Did everyone miss the huge announcement/rumour here, the replacement for EF-S lenses is here! It looks like RF-S lenses 'are/will be a thing'... :oops:

The Canon RF-S 18-45mm f/3.5-5.6 and RF-S 18-150mm f/3.5-6.3 sound like typical kit lens zooms.

The questionable RF 16mm f/2.8 will make a decent 24mm f/4.5 equivalent on APSC, and the periphery won't matter because it will be all cropped away! :)

If the RF-S bodies can run EF-S lenses with an adapter, that provides even more options!
Size, weight, and gimbal calibration is a major consideration. The lens by itself doesn't function alone. In order to replace an M50 or the M6 there is a much to wait and see before a conclusion can be made.
 
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Mar 26, 2014
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Some thoughts...

It was suggested before Canon might make a crop RF mount camera to see whether customers would prefer it over the EOS M line. If it doesn't catch, Canon can scrap it. The crop lenses would be shared with the R7, and a cheap redesign of existing EF-S / EF-M lenses, saving costs.

The 24 MP sensor could be recycled from the 850D or R3, saving on cost. It would have a reach advantage over [higher pixel density than] the R5, and so offer some benefit.

As a speculation, Canon might have customer feedback showing interest in a crop RF camera, either as an addition to existing FF RF camera, or as offering an upgrade path to new customers (= having no camera, or interested in switching from other manufacturers).
 
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Dragon

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Time will tell what Canon decides to do about the M system, which is still selling quite well.

For those (like me) who sometimes need a very small and lightweight ILC, the R10 would have to be extremely small and the rumoured RF-S lenses would have to be smaller than the current non-L RF lenses to replace the M-system. I obviously don't have an R10, but I have an RF 50 1.8 and an EF-M 22 2 in front of me. Lenses the size of the RF 50 are too large for the specific purposes I use them.
Might well be that I'll have to replace the M6 with a smartphone once it breaks :oops: Or use a camera from another brand, if such cameras still exist then
Take goo care of it and it will likely last longer than you do :)
 
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I'm interested to see these products in person... not because I intend to buy them but because I think they are important to Canon's future. The R3, R6 and R7 made everything else in the R and EF/EF-S systems look dated. I remember being impressed when the M6 II came out (compared to the original EOS R), but by that time I was already thinking of exiting the EOS M system. Canon doesn't need a lot of RF-S lenses, but I'd to see something akin to what they have for the EOS M (add a ultrawide zoom and a longer telephoto). I would also like to see at 15-85 or a 17-55 f/2.8 but I'm not sure if the market will make those lenses viable economically.

I wonder if the RF-S lenses will be about as small as the EF-M lenses. The RF mount is wider, but the focal length/aperture range of the 18-150 is the same as the EF-M version... so there is hope. Assuming that most R7 users will be using RF L lenses like many 7D users using EF L lenses, then I can see the M10 and the new lenses targeting/replacing the EOS M system. Something Rebel/M5/M6 sized. Sell it with a 2 or 3 lens kit a la Rebel. Here's to hoping Canon develops this system more than what Nikon did with their Z crop system.
 
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jam05

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Mar 12, 2019
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Maybe CR has information that would lead one to believe that the R10 would calibrate and balance properly on an M2s, M3 or Zhiyun equivalent compact gimbal. We shall see. If it does, I dont believe that Canon would be able ship sufficient quantity for the first year or two in order replace its M series. My bet it would take at least 5 years.
 
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If the R7 is built to satisfy 7D users as a crop-sensor body for professional use, the R10 can go with a lower-res sensor and single card to reduce the cost, size, and weight. From my experience with the 7D2, 5D4, R, and R6, a 24MP crop sensor in an IBIS-equipped, EOS R-sized body with a joystick instead of the multi-function bar, a focusing system to match the R6, and the LP-E6 battery size and access to RF, EF, EF-S, and RF-S lenses would be a welcome addition to the market.
 
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The Canon M is a glorified point and shoot. It is small, compact and easy to travel with. It is a simplified system and it has a niche.
It is a niche that really doesn't require much upgrading, it performs really well at what it does today.
The logic going round that the R10 and other APS-C bodies are meant to replace the M line makes no sense.
Are they going to make small tiny APS-C R bodies and tiny RF-S lenses to go with it?
How would it be an upgrade path having a tiny M size body to mount on the RF 24x70. It would be awkward.
It does make sense this is an expansion of the R line to build on the model Canon had with the EOS EF line.
 
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How would it be an upgrade path having a tiny M size body to mount on the RF 24x70. It would be awkward.
I wonder how many EF-M mount adapters Canon has sold, and how many EF lenses Canon has sold to people who own only M-series bodies. I suspect the answer to the latter is 'not many'.

Canon doesn't have to wonder...they know.
 
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The Canon M is a glorified point and shoot. It is small, compact and easy to travel with. It is a simplified system and it has a niche.
It is a niche that really doesn't require much upgrading, it performs really well at what it does today.
The logic going round that the R10 and other APS-C bodies are meant to replace the M line makes no sense.
Are they going to make small tiny APS-C R bodies and tiny RF-S lenses to go with it?
How would it be an upgrade path having a tiny M size body to mount on the RF 24x70. It would be awkward.
It does make sense this is an expansion of the R line to build on the model Canon had with the EOS EF line.

It makes even less sense to think Canon would keep alive and maintain 2 APS-C systems. It doesn't make sense to mount a 24-70 lens but something like the R7 is perfect for the 100-500, giving plenty of reach.
 
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The 7D + 5D2 and the 7D 1&2 + 5D3 were/are great combinations, especially from ergonomic and muscle memory reasons.
I had and really liked the 7D + 5DII combination. But I liked the 1D X better. Other than the M-series which I like for a kit size that is smaller than achievable with an RF mount camera, I don't think I'll own another body without an integrated grip like the 1-series and my current R3. Maybe that will change when I can no longer carry them, but I'm many years from that (and if I was there today, I'd be considering Fuji or Oly).
 
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Dragon

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The Canon M is a glorified point and shoot. It is small, compact and easy to travel with. It is a simplified system and it has a niche.
It is a niche that really doesn't require much upgrading, it performs really well at what it does today.
The logic going round that the R10 and other APS-C bodies are meant to replace the M line makes no sense.
Are they going to make small tiny APS-C R bodies and tiny RF-S lenses to go with it?
How would it be an upgrade path having a tiny M size body to mount on the RF 24x70. It would be awkward.
It does make sense this is an expansion of the R line to build on the model Canon had with the EOS EF line.
The R7 clearly has to be a decent sized body if it is to fill the slot that everyone expects. Given that the majority of EF and most EF-s lenses have been discontinued but none of the M lenses other than the original 18-55 have been, it would be logical to assume that a) The M6 II is going away because it doesn't fit the M paradigm and b) the R10 is really a Rebel replacement. The physical size of the R10 will tell the intent. From the rumor, it sounds like the sensors in these new cameras may well be the existing 24 and 32 MP sensors, with the possibility that the 32 has been upgraded a bit for more speed. Sounds like only a couple of weeks to find out. For the R7 to be a viable stand-alone package, the EF-s 15-85 needs to be resurrected in RF format. It was the best of the EF-s lenses and actually capable of 24mm FF Equiv.
 
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Dragon

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It makes even less sense to think Canon would keep alive and maintain 2 APS-C systems. It doesn't make sense to mount a 24-70 lens but something like the R7 is perfect for the 100-500, giving plenty of reach.
And the ability to sensibly mount the 100-500 means the size of the R7 will in no way be competitive with any M camera. The size of the R10 remains to be seen, by my bet is for a Rebel replacement and the M50 is here to stay (at least for the next year or so).
 
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I will not be at all surprised if Canon launches two APS-C format R-series cameras at the same time, as suggested in this rumor. They simply can't address the different parts of the market with a single camera.

But, I hope the R7 and R10 specs cited in the earlier posts are wrong. I would prefer the resolution to be the reverse: 24MP in the R7 and 32.5MP in the R10.

Assuming the R7 is intended to be a mirrorless 7D Mark II, it should be no more than 24MP. In fact, that would be a 20% increase in resolution compared to the 20MP 7DII. If these models are intended to be an APS-C "sports/action" mirrorless, 24MP makes more sense. After all, the R3 is 24MP and essentially is the mirrorless replacement for the 20MP 1DX Mark III, both of which were full frame, top-of-the-line, no compromise "pro" cameras with similar sports/action purpose. To meet this purpose R7 needs a high performance AF system, dual card slots (preferably the same... not a mix of types), should be similar in size/shape to R5/R6 and share the BG-R10 with those cameras.... and needs no more than 24MP. Glad to hear it will have IBIS, too. Hopefully it will have fast readout (BSI stacked sensor?) to prevent rolling shutter effect, too.

If the R10 is intended to replace the recently discontinued M6 Mark II, it needs to be 32.5MP like that camera. It would be a good idea for this camera to gain a built-in electronic viewfinder. At the higher price point, the M6II should have had one. In fact, the lack of a built in EVF might be one thing that's worked against the M6II. Yes, a separately sold accessory EVF is available. But it occupies the camera's hot shoe, so cannot be used at the same time as an accessory flash. It didn't make a lot of sense that the less expensive M50 cameras had a built-in EVF, while the more expensive M6 models didn't!

I'm mildly surprised to see both mechanical and electronic shutter frame rates quoted for these cameras. I thought it possible that Canon would go with electronic shutter only in these and other future cameras (much as Nikon has done with their top-of-the-line Z9). It may be a logical cost-saving move.

If the R10 replaces the M6II, I think it likely Canon will continue to offer the M50 Mark II for the time being... at least until they have a replacement for it. The M50II and M50 before it have simply been way too successful for Canon to discontinue without being able to offer a comparable R-series. As a vlogger-oriented camera, this might be the model where they forego a built-in viewfinder. An EVF is less needed for video work and this is supposed to be a more affordable camera (current M50II sells for $600, while the M6II has been selling for $850, body only in both cases). If not launched alongside the R7 and R10, I would wager an "R50" is in the works and will come in due course. It just makes sense for Canon to consolidate everything into the R-series and RF-mount, eliminating both the EF/EF-S and EF-M cameras and lenses.

An R10 (and an "R50", if/when there is one), needs to have IBIS. That's not listed as one of the R10 specs.

RF 18-45mm and RF 18-150mm lenses make a lot of sense too. I doubt they will be labelled "RF-S" though... Canon has stated there will be none of those. What I think they meant though, is that there will be no "crop only" lenses with a modified mount designed to prevent them from being used on full frame cameras, the way there were with EF-S lenses (versus full frame capable EF lenses). There simply is no longer need for that.

Back in 2004 when Canon intro'd EF-S lenses they were the only company offering both APS-C and full frame cameras. So they opted to design their crop-only lenses that way out of concern that people wouldn't understand the difference. Today's marketplace is much smarter about this, since virtually all manufacturers now make both APS-C and full frame, and none of them have found it necessary to restrict their crop lenses in this manner. For that matter, third party lens makers have had little trouble using the same EF mount on both full frame and crop only lenses they've made to fit Canon DSLRs.

Also, one of the reasons for the EF-S mount was that some lenses would protrude inside the camera, which would interfere with and potentially damage the mirror mechanism of a full frame camera. Of course, with mirrorless full frame R-series cameras, this is no longer a concern either.

Regardless whether they are actually labelled "RF-S" or not, you can bet that they will use the same RF mount as the full frame capable RF lenses for the R3, R5, R6, etc. The FF R-series cameras also now have a "crop mode", so can work with adapted EF-S lenses.

Finally, I'm a little disappointed to not see an ultrawide "RF-S" zoom being announced. There has been a 10-24mm on the Canon lens roadmap for some time now, that I thought might fit that role. Besides a "kit lens" like the 18-45mm (compact) and 18-150mm (more premium), an ultrawide is the only other type of lens necessary right away. Everything else can be accomplished with the full frame RF lenses. Yes, there is a compact, affordable RF 16mm lens... But that's not much wider than 18mm. There are also RF 15-35mm f/2.8L and RF 14-35mm f/4L full frame lenses... But those cost $2400 and $1700 respectively. Nice lenses, but at those prices they may not be very attractive to the broad swath of APS-C camera purchasers. Among the EF-S lenses for Canon's APS-C DSLRs, there are currently a 10-22mm ($650) and a slower but very affordable 10-18mm ($300).
 
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Dragon

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I will not be at all surprised if Canon launches two APS-C format R-series cameras at the same time, as suggested in this rumor. They simply can't address the different parts of the market with a single camera.

But, I hope the R7 and R10 specs cited in the earlier posts are wrong. I would prefer the resolution to be the reverse: 24MP in the R7 and 32.5MP in the R10.

Assuming the R7 is intended to be a mirrorless 7D Mark II, it should be no more than 24MP. In fact, that would be a 20% increase in resolution compared to the 20MP 7DII. If these models are intended to be an APS-C "sports/action" mirrorless, 24MP makes more sense. After all, the R3 is 24MP and essentially is the mirrorless replacement for the 20MP 1DX Mark III, both of which were full frame, top-of-the-line, no compromise "pro" cameras with similar sports/action purpose. To meet this purpose R7 needs a high performance AF system, dual card slots (preferably the same... not a mix of types), should be similar in size/shape to R5/R6 and share the BG-R10 with those cameras.... and needs no more than 24MP. Glad to hear it will have IBIS, too. Hopefully it will have fast readout (BSI stacked sensor?) to prevent rolling shutter effect, too.

If the R10 is intended to replace the recently discontinued M6 Mark II, it needs to be 32.5MP like that camera. It would be a good idea for this camera to gain a built-in electronic viewfinder. At the higher price point, the M6II should have had one. In fact, the lack of a built in EVF might be one thing that's worked against the M6II. Yes, a separately sold accessory EVF is available. But it occupies the camera's hot shoe, so cannot be used at the same time as an accessory flash. It didn't make a lot of sense that the less expensive M50 cameras had a built-in EVF, while the more expensive M6 models didn't!

I'm mildly surprised to see both mechanical and electronic shutter frame rates quoted for these cameras. I thought it possible that Canon would go with electronic shutter only in these and other future cameras (much as Nikon has done with their top-of-the-line Z9). It may be a logical cost-saving move.

If the R10 replaces the M6II, I think it likely Canon will continue to offer the M50 Mark II for the time being... at least until they have a replacement for it. The M50II and M50 before it have simply been way too successful for Canon to discontinue without being able to offer a comparable R-series. As a vlogger-oriented camera, this might be the model where they forego a built-in viewfinder. An EVF is less needed for video work and this is supposed to be a more affordable camera (current M50II sells for $600, while the M6II has been selling for $850, body only in both cases). If not launched alongside the R7 and R10, I would wager an "R50" is in the works and will come in due course. It just makes sense for Canon to consolidate everything into the R-series and RF-mount, eliminating both the EF/EF-S and EF-M cameras and lenses.

An R10 (and an "R50", if/when there is one), needs to have IBIS. That's not listed as one of the R10 specs.

RF 18-45mm and RF 18-150mm lenses make a lot of sense too. I doubt they will be labelled "RF-S" though... Canon has stated there will be none of those. What I think they meant though, is that there will be no "crop only" lenses with a modified mount designed to prevent them from being used on full frame cameras, the way there were with EF-S lenses (versus full frame capable EF lenses). There simply is no longer need for that.

Back in 2004 when Canon intro'd EF-S lenses they were the only company offering both APS-C and full frame cameras. So they opted to design their crop-only lenses that way out of concern that people wouldn't understand the difference. Today's marketplace is much smarter about this, since virtually all manufacturers now make both APS-C and full frame, and none of them have found it necessary to restrict their crop lenses in this manner. For that matter, third party lens makers have had little trouble using the same EF mount on both full frame and crop only lenses they've made to fit Canon DSLRs.

Also, one of the reasons for the EF-S mount was that some lenses would protrude inside the camera, which would interfere with and potentially damage the mirror mechanism of a full frame camera. Of course, with mirrorless full frame R-series cameras, this is no longer a concern either.

Regardless whether they are actually labelled "RF-S" or not, you can bet that they will use the same RF mount as the full frame capable RF lenses for the R3, R5, R6, etc. The FF R-series cameras also now have a "crop mode", so can work with adapted EF-S lenses.

Finally, I'm a little disappointed to not see an ultrawide "RF-S" zoom being announced. There has been a 10-24mm on the Canon lens roadmap for some time now, that I thought might fit that role. Besides a "kit lens" like the 18-45mm (compact) and 18-150mm (more premium), an ultrawide is the only other type of lens necessary right away. Everything else can be accomplished with the full frame RF lenses. Yes, there is a compact, affordable RF 16mm lens... But that's not much wider than 18mm. There are also RF 15-35mm f/2.8L and RF 14-35mm f/4L full frame lenses... But those cost $2400 and $1700 respectively. Nice lenses, but at those prices they may not be very attractive to the broad swath of APS-C camera purchasers. Among the EF-S lenses for Canon's APS-C DSLRs, there are currently a 10-22mm ($650) and a slower but very affordable 10-18mm ($300).
I think you are missing the intended application of these cameras. My sense is that the R7 will replace the 7D II, the 90D, and the M6 II to cover action and wildlife. For latter, it needs as many pixels as it can get. The R10, OTOH, is likely a Rebel replacement, so will be quite pedestrian and really cheap. For the R7 to be a successful stand-alone package, the EF-s 15-85mm needs to be released in RF form. I think the M50 is here to stay for quite a while longer.
 
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