High-resolution EOS R Camera, Where are you?

AlanF

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The R5 has a very well designed AA filter, but it is not "gentler" than than the "cancelled" AA filter in the 5DSR. The 5DS has a more aggressive AA filter, but the 5DSR effectively has no AA filter at all. I have both cameras and the R5 offers great detail, but not more than the the 5DSR. Shadow recovery is another matter. The R5 wins hands down.
Your 5DSR and R5 behave differently from mine. The 5DSR gave me great results in terms of sharp images and detail, the best I had until then, but the R5 is slightly better. This borne out by measurements -
https://www.optyczne.pl/457.4-Test_aparatu-Canon_EOS_R5_Rozdzielczość.html

https://www.optyczne.pl/312.4-Test_aparatu-Canon_EOS_5Ds__R_Rozdzielczość.html
 
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TwoWheeler

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I think you are correct. I have spent some time playing with the R5 high res mode and it only works well in a very limited number of situations. Firstly, the camera has to be VERY stable and particularly so if the lens has any reach. Secondly, the scene can have no short term movement.
I deliberately used it for a waterfall shot, where I wanted motion blur, just to see what happened.

It gave a weird bluish cast and if you punched way in, there were some bizarre herringbone/zebra stripes in the white water. Probably not anything I’ll do again.

I would have been happy if the “big firmware update” would have allowed me to close the card slot door without borking my settings, instead. ;)
 
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Dragon

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Your 5DSR and R5 behave differently from mine. The 5DSR gave me great results in terms of sharp images and detail, the best I had until then, but the R5 is slightly better. This borne out by measurements -
https://www.optyczne.pl/457.4-Test_aparatu-Canon_EOS_R5_Rozdzielczość.html

https://www.optyczne.pl/312.4-Test_aparatu-Canon_EOS_5Ds__R_Rozdzielczość.html
I would easily concede that the R5 with the RF 50mm f/1.2 (at f/4) may be sharper than the 5DSR with the EF 35mm f/2 IS (at f/4) and when you read the test report carefully, that is the logical conclusion. The EF 35mm f/2 IS is a remarkable lens (I have one), but it is no match for the RF 50 and certainly not for the 85. The tester openly stated that he had the best result with the native RF lens and that would be the 50. In my previous comment, I added the qualification "with the same lens", and it has been my experience that the 5DSR offers a bit more detail in that scenario (at least to my eye), but the difference is slight and there is no easy way to test, because in many scenes, aliasing will overwhelm the useful detail and further confuse the evaluation. BTW, the first test done with OOC JPEGs is not particularly useful in evaluating the sensor since Canon's JPEG engine has been constantly improving over the years.
 
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Dragon

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Smartphones are starting to make use of higher resolutions, and the trend is going upwards. You won't find many 4in smartphones anymore, the regular iPhone 15 is 6.1in and the Max is 6.7in.

Progress is slow and steady. First were larger screens ("phablets", now just called regular phones), then increased pixel density ("Retina"), and just recently more and better options for easy sharing of full resolution images were made available to regular users. E.g. iCloud Shared Library, full resolution sharing on WhatsApp, etc, where previously this was always restricted due to bandwidth/storage costs.

I do agree that it is hard to see/use 33MP on even the newest phones. At 460ppi pixel density (iPhone 15 Pro Max) you can see about 3.6MP at a time. But zooming in on a 45MP R5 photo on my phone and seeing all the detail come out is pretty amazing. Nothing pixelates.

Once VR / AR becomes mainstream, looking at a large image like you would a painting will be entirely possible. VR and AR make use of foveated rendering where the parts of the image you're looking at are shown at a much higher resolution than the rest, and of course you can move/look around. So any image can be rendered larger than life. I'm sure younger generations will love it once it becomes mainstream. The tech might even be usable this time around, looking forward to the Apple headset.
have my doubts about the longevity of VR. It is about the 6th attempt at 3D that has been tried in my memory and all the others failed in the end for essentially the same reason. Two image 3D is an attempt to fool the eye into seeing an actual 3D image, but the screen (and hence the nominal focus point for the eye) is in a fixed position. The result is that whenever the image is focused on a point in front of or behind the screen, the phase information in the dual image presentation causes the eye/brain to try to focus on that point, but the screen doesn't move, so now the whole image is out of focus and the result is a headache. The problem is mitigated somewhat by brighter screens that cause the eye to have more depth of field, but the basic problem remains and my sense is that we are looking at yet another passing fad. Good to remember that our eyes focus exactly like a PDAF camera.
 
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Any higher will end up the lens cannot resolve the MP. And I struggle to understand why so much MP is needed if is for the sake of cropping. That just means they are using wrong focal length.
Certainly you must realize that for lots of situations (birds and wildlife come immediately to mind) the subject is very small in your image despite shooting at the maximum focal length. Let me know when Canon releases that 2000mm or 2500mm focal length lens, but until then, I will need to crop. These Sandhill Cranes were just over a half mile away. I think I was using the correct focal length!! (400mm lens with 2x TC using a MFT camera (with 2x crop factor). And I still had to crop.

cranes for CR.jpg
 
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neuroanatomist

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Certainly you must realize that for lots of situations (birds and wildlife come immediately to mind) the subject is very small in your image despite shooting at the maximum focal length. Let me know when Canon releases that 2000mm or 2500mm focal length lens, but until then, I will need to crop. These Sandhill Cranes were just over a half mile away. I think I was using the correct focal length!! (400mm lens with 2x TC using a MFT camera (with 2x crop factor). And I still had to crop.

View attachment 212991
I had a bigger subject — an island— but it was ~90 km away. I may have been using the wrong focal length, this was with the RF 100-400mm on a FF camera. I do have a 600/4 and 2x TC, but I did not bring either of them to Italy and even if I had, I certainly would not have hiked up Mt. Etna with the 600/4.

Salina.jpg
 
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Certainly you must realize that for lots of situations (birds and wildlife come immediately to mind) the subject is very small in your image despite shooting at the maximum focal length. Let me know when Canon releases that 2000mm or 2500mm focal length lens, but until then, I will need to crop. These Sandhill Cranes were just over a half mile away. I think I was using the correct focal length!! (400mm lens with 2x TC using a MFT camera (with 2x crop factor). And I still had to crop.

View attachment 212991
What was the uncropped resolution?
Edit : it turned out nicely
 
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I had a bigger subject — an island— but it was ~90 km away. I may have been using the wrong focal length, this was with the RF 100-400mm on a FF camera. I do have a 600/4 and 2x TC, but I did not bring either of them to Italy and even if I had, I certainly would not have hiked up Mt. Etna with the 600/4.

View attachment 212992
This is a great example of the benefit of that lens. I know it's subjective, but it's difficult for me to think a wider aperture would have benefited the photo. How much did the altitude affected you? Anyway, it's beautiful.
 
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neuroanatomist

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This is a great example of the benefit of that lens. I know it's subjective, but it's difficult for me to think a wider aperture would have benefited the photo. How much did the altitude affected you? Anyway, it's beautiful.
Thanks!

It wouldn't have, and the image is uncropped so it really was the right focal length. ISO was 1000, so not a problem at all despite the 'slow' max aperture. Who effect of altitude that we felt...we were tired afterwards, but that's probably more down to the hiking than the elevation. We weren't at the summit (2800 m) for too long, and really that's not terribly high considering that commercial airline cabins are pressurized to nearly that level (2400 m).
 
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Thanks!

It wouldn't have, and the image is uncropped so it really was the right focal length. ISO was 1000, so not a problem at all despite the 'slow' max aperture. Who effect of altitude that we felt...we were tired afterwards, but that's probably more down to the hiking than the elevation. We weren't at the summit (2800 m) for too long, and really that's not terribly high considering that commercial airline cabins are pressurized to nearly that level (2400 m).
1000 isn't even bad with film, although as far as I know, you'd have to either use 800 for color or choose between 400 and 3200 for black & white. Strange that not enough people wanted 1600 for anyone to continue with it... Must be a conspiracy!

My perception of volcanos had been skewed into thinking they're all higher.
 
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Hmmm? My understanding was the opposite, but I'd be very happy to be proven wrong
No problem. Camera shake results from the sensor moving while the picture is taken. The amount of blur is a result of the distance the plane/angle of the sensor is moved during exposure. This is a simple geometrical function. The distance of movement to your sensor that induces motion blur does not change regardless if your camera has 1,000 or 100 mill pixels - the only factor is the distance the sensor moves while the picture is taken. Imaging holding a camera and tilting it 5 degrees down. No matter the size of your sensor, the light hitting that sensor will move precisely 5 degrees. So the blur from hand holding a low and high MPIX camera is always exactly the same. When I said it may be less with a high MPIX camera its because several high-MPIX DSLR-cameras have special dampened motors to reduce motion blur resulting from mirror slap.

The reasons why people think more pixels = more blur is probably 1) because when moving to high MPIX cameras people could suddenly "see" the motion blur, that they did not notice before, because sensor resolution was much higher - it was actually the same as before, just more visible when pixel peeping 2) both Nikon and Canon promoted their dampened motors as an advantage of high MPIX cameras - effectively establishing a link 3) dpReview (and a lot of others) when reviewing the first high MPIX cameras wrongly claimed that there was more motion blur - almost all serious reviewers have since retracted/corrected their initial mistakes. But just as the Force the Myth lives very strong on the net!
 
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AlanF

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I would easily concede that the R5 with the RF 50mm f/1.2 (at f/4) may be sharper than the 5DSR with the EF 35mm f/2 IS (at f/4) and when you read the test report carefully, that is the logical conclusion. The EF 35mm f/2 IS is a remarkable lens (I have one), but it is no match for the RF 50 and certainly not for the 85. The tester openly stated that he had the best result with the native RF lens and that would be the 50. In my previous comment, I added the qualification "with the same lens", and it has been my experience that the 5DSR offers a bit more detail in that scenario (at least to my eye), but the difference is slight and there is no easy way to test, because in many scenes, aliasing will overwhelm the useful detail and further confuse the evaluation. BTW, the first test done with OOC JPEGs is not particularly useful in evaluating the sensor since Canon's JPEG engine has been constantly improving over the years.
You agree then that when the 5DSR and R5 are tested for sharpness that is independent of the lens then the R5 just wins out. I did with the 5DSR have Moire occasionally spoiling details on birds feathers, especially Kingfishers tails for example, but not once has Moire interfered with the R5 output for me.
 
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AlanF

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No problem. Camera shake results from the sensor moving while the picture is taken. The amount of blur is a result of the distance the plane/angle of the sensor is moved during exposure. This is a simple geometrical function. The distance of movement to your sensor that induces motion blur does not change regardless if your camera has 1,000 or 100 mill pixels - the only factor is the distance the sensor moves while the picture is taken. Imaging holding a camera and tilting it 5 degrees down. No matter the size of your sensor, the light hitting that sensor will move precisely 5 degrees. So the blur from hand holding a low and high MPIX camera is always exactly the same. When I said it may be less with a high MPIX camera its because several high-MPIX DSLR-cameras have special dampened motors to reduce motion blur resulting from mirror slap.

The reasons why people think more pixels = more blur is probably 1) because when moving to high MPIX cameras people could suddenly "see" the motion blur, that they did not notice before, because sensor resolution was much higher - it was actually the same as before, just more visible when pixel peeping 2) both Nikon and Canon promoted their dampened motors as an advantage of high MPIX cameras - effectively establishing a link 3) dpReview (and a lot of others) when reviewing the first high MPIX cameras wrongly claimed that there was more motion blur - almost all serious reviewers have since retracted/corrected their initial mistakes. But just as the Force the Myth lives very strong on the net!
Further, low resolution output can look artificially sharper because it can remove a gradual transition of shading into a binary 0 or 1 change.
 
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neuroanatomist

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2) both Nikon and Canon promoted their dampened motors as an advantage of high MPIX cameras - effectively establishing a link
Canon introduced IBIS with the R5 and R6 that launched simultaneously with 45 and 20 MP sensors, respectively. They promote 8-stops of coordinated IS for both cameras, as well as for the 24 MP R3 and R6II.

Unless 20-24 MP suddenly become ‘high MP’ when I wasn’t looking, I don’t see the link there.
 
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Canon introduced IBIS with the R5 and R6 that launched simultaneously with 45 and 20 MP sensors, respectively. They promote 8-stops of coordinated IS for both cameras, as well as for the 24 MP R3 and R6II.

Unless 20-24 MP suddenly become ‘high MP’ when I wasn’t looking, I don’t see the link there.
Your reading comprehension is once again lacking - and I already kindly asked you to not comment on my posts - so not sure why you insist. The part you apparently missed this time around:
"...When I said it may be less with a high MPIX camera its because several high-MPIX DSLR-cameras have special dampened motors to reduce motion blur resulting from mirror slap."...
 
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neuroanatomist

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Your reading comprehension is once again lacking - and I already kindly asked you to not comment on my posts - so not sure why you insist.
An insult followed by a reminder of your kindness? That’s a rather (oxy)moronic statement. Regardless, I will reply when and to whom I choose. If that bothers you, to be blunt…too bad. Pro tip: if not receiving a response is your goal, insulting someone is a poor way to accomplish it.


The part you apparently missed this time around:
"...When I said it may be less with a high MPIX camera it’s because several high-MPIX DSLR-cameras have special dampened motors to reduce motion blur resulting from mirror slap."...
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, my mistake. I assumed you meant mirrorless and were referring to IBIS. In the context of a current discussion, there are no ‘high MP DSLRs’. Personally, even historically I don’t recall Canon or Nikon promoting dampened mirror motors at all, and though Canon did mention the IS in some supertele lenses is designed to reduce the effect of mirror slap at long focal lengths, I wouldn’t call it ’promoting’.

Your first reason (the effect of camera shake is more noticeable at higher pixel densities) is certainly correct, and all the reason needed.
 
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koenkooi

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An insult followed by a reminder of your kindness? That’s a rather (oxy)moronic statement. Regardless, I will reply when and to whom I choose. If that bothers you, to be blunt…too bad. Pro tip: if not receiving a response is your goal, insulting someone is a poor way to accomplish it.



I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, my mistake. I assumed you meant mirrorless and were referring to IBIS. In the context of a current discussion, there are no ‘high MP DSLRs’. Personally, even historically I don’t recall Canon or Nikon promoting dampened mirror motors at all, and though Canon did mention the IS in some supertele lenses is designed to reduce the effect of mirror slap at long focal lengths, I wouldn’t call it ’promoting’.

Your first reason (the effect of camera shake is more noticeable at higher pixel densities) is certainly correct, and all the reason needed.
When the 5Dses were introduced Canon highlighted the redesigned mirror slapping mechanism, which they said was a lot less slappy than the previous design.
 
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neuroanatomist

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When the 5Dses were introduced Canon highlighted the redesigned mirror slapping mechanism, which they said was a lot less slappy than the previous design.
Logical, since that was Canon's own high MP DSLR. I don't recall them making a big deal about it, though, and that sort of makes sense. Never a good idea to highlight a previous problem with your technology unless you're planning to fix it across the board. They can tout the readout speed of the stacked sensor in the R3, but not by saying that's solution for the 'problem' of the slow readout speed of other MILCs.
 
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Del Paso

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You are right. The 10-20 won't be all that rare for those of us who can afford a 100 MP body in the first place :LOL:
For very sharp edges, I tend to rely on primes, never on ultra-wide zooms.
Yet, incredible progress has been achieved in designing WA zooms (EF 17-40 vs. EF 16-35 L III).
 
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