The EOS 80D Replacement to be a Big Leap Forward [CR2]

[Talys]

As a bonus what I like about Sony is when I do go FF I can use my crop lenses on the FF body, something you can't do (at least at this point) with Canon, maybe the upcoming FF mirrorless will allow it but again, this is Canon we're talking about, they'll find a way to make it impossible just to force you to upgrade.

As a practical matter, this isn't really that great a feature on the Sony. The A7R has an excellent crop mode, which gives you a great 18 megapixel crop using full frame lenses. It's unlikely that someone will invest $3,000 in a camera body and not have equivalent full frame glass of some sort that can do a good job in crop mode for whatever it is you want, since pretty much every focal length can be covered between 24mm to 200mm, and there's no spectacular APSC glass that you'll have invested a huge amount of money in to transition over.

The cheaper A7 has too few pixels when you take a APSC crop out of it to be generally usable, whether it's crop mode or a APSC lens. I assume nearly nobody goes and spends big bucks on an A9 to use APSC glass.

 

[jolyonralph]

As a bonus what I like about Sony is when I do go FF I can use my crop lenses on the FF body...

As a practical matter, this isn't really that great a feature on the Sony.

This is actually more useful than it seems, because not only can you use the lenses with an automatic APS-C crop, but you can attempt to use the full-frame sensor with the lens.

With some lenses, eg the ultrawide zooms for APS-C, there image circle can cover a much wider area than the APS-C area. Now, usually there's strong vignetting, in most cases the corners are not useable as they are, and of course APS-C lenses are not designed optically to keep those areas outside of the APS-C image circle sharp, so it's pretty much luck as to whether you can get something useable or not. But, if you already have an APS-C ultrawide, and you haven't yet invested in FF lenses, it's actually quite impressive what it CAN do as a stop-gap.

Even the EF-S 18-55 IS can cover a surprising amount of the FF area at mid zoom ranges!!!

Remember, even if the corners aren't perfect or you can't use the entire edges, you can in many cases edit the corners in photoshop, and/or crop the image down to smaller than FF but larger than APS-C.

TL;DR; Don't knock using APS-C lenses on a FF body until you've tried it.

 

[bwud]

I have no crop lenses for my A7Riii, but often crop in post because I’m focal length limited even with options up to 800mm. I’d definately try the auto crop thing if there were a compelling APS-C lens.

 

[Generalized Specialist]

As a practical matter, this isn't really that great a feature on the Sony.

To each their own but I think this is a brilliant feature on Sony cams. Using myself as an example, I'm a regular single income household with a mortgage, car payment, child support and a child going to University in 2 years on top of all the other usual expenses. Dropping $5k+ on a body and a couple of lenses would be a strain for me, especially since my childs' education comes before camera equipment. To be able to get a body and being able to use my existing crop lenses on a FF body making do while I budget for more and better FF glass is a bonus.

 

[BillB]

I have no crop lenses for my A7Riii, but often crop in post because I’m focal length limited even with options up to 800mm. I’d definately try the auto crop thing if there were a compelling APS-C lens.

And what would a compelling aps-c lens look like?

 

[neuroanatomist]

As a practical matter, this isn't really that great a feature on the Sony.

To each their own but I think this is a brilliant feature on Sony cams. Using myself as an example, I'm a regular single income household with a mortgage, car payment, child support and a child going to University in 2 years on top of all the other usual expenses. Dropping $5k+ on a body and a couple of lenses would be a strain for me, especially since my childs' education comes before camera equipment. To be able to get a body and being able to use my existing crop lenses on a FF body making do while I budget for more and better FF glass is a bonus.

I don't see it. First, it begs the question – why get the FF camera at all? Second, I just had a look at the a7III on B&H. Bundling it with the FE 28-70/3.5-5.6 adds $200 to the cost of the body, just 10% more. So, save a little longer. The cost benefits of APS-C lenses are in the wide/standard range. $200 gets you the FF version of an 18-55 kit lens, and an APS-C UWA on FF won't be ultra wide anyway.

The converse – native mounting of FF lenses on APS-C bodies – makes sense. That works for the Canon EF and Sony E mounts, but it remains to be seen if that will remain true for Canon mirrorless.

 

[bwud]

I have no crop lenses for my A7Riii, but often crop in post because I’m focal length limited even with options up to 800mm. I’d definately try the auto crop thing if there were a compelling APS-C lens.

And what would a compelling aps-c lens look like?

Something like 200-800 with f/6.3 or f/8 at the long end would be interesting. I’m fully aware that I’ll likely not go beyond 800mm; I’m not paying 15,000 for a lens.

With a smaller image circle, keeping that aperture isn’t a huge stretch, and thus autofocus wouldn’t suffer like with f/11 on the 2XTC 100-400.

 

[gsealy]

We'll see, of course. Every year it seems that we get all this advance excitement and promises. We wait for 6-12 months. Then the camera is released, and it underwhelms us. It's a good camera, but definitely less than what people thought it would be.

The video specs are out there for everybody to see. They are not a secret. The GH5 is kicking it spec-wise, and most probably by the time the 90D hits the street there will be a GH6, which is another step up. The 70D was a revolutionary camera because it introduced DPAF. The 80D is an evolutionary camera over the 70D. Both are great cameras, but they are not what the GH5 is in terms of video quality that video shooters want. Yes, the GH5 is more expensive, but video guys are willing to pay for the additional features.

 

[neuroanatomist]

I have no crop lenses for my A7Riii, but often crop in post because I’m focal length limited even with options up to 800mm. I’d definately try the auto crop thing if there were a compelling APS-C lens.

And what would a compelling aps-c lens look like?

Something like 200-800 with f/6.3 or f/8 at the long end would be interesting. I’m fully aware that I’ll likely not go beyond 800mm; I’m not paying 15,000 for a lens.

With a smaller image circle, keeping that aperture isn’t a huge stretch, and thus autofocus wouldn’t suffer like with f/11 on the 2XTC 100-400.

There's zero benefit to making a lens >200mm with an APS-C image circle. At those focal lengths, the diameter of the image circle is not limiting.

 

[Talys]

I have no crop lenses for my A7Riii, but often crop in post because I’m focal length limited even with options up to 800mm. I’d definately try the auto crop thing if there were a compelling APS-C lens.

Just map the crop mode onto a button, and push it

The APSC mode will work just like that... except you can't turn it off. Frankly, I think the crop mode is one of the best features of mirrorless. Not only do you get to have the crop image fill up the whole viewfinder (which is a big reason that wildlife folks like crop cameras), but you also are able to save dramatically smaller RAW files, when you know you're going to discard half the full frame image anyways.

 

[Durf]

I have no crop lenses for my A7Riii, but often crop in post because I’m focal length limited even with options up to 800mm. I’d definately try the auto crop thing if there were a compelling APS-C lens.

Just map the crop mode onto a button, and push it

The APSC mode will work just like that... except you can't turn it off. Frankly, I think the crop mode is one of the best features of mirrorless. Not only do you get to have the crop image fill up the whole viewfinder (which is a big reason that wildlife folks like crop cameras), but you also are able to save dramatically smaller RAW files, when you know you're going to discard half the full frame image anyways.

Scratches head????

Reckon I'll go spend 2 or 3 grand for a FF camera so I can shoot it in crop mode! LOL

 

[Talys]

I have no crop lenses for my A7Riii, but often crop in post because I’m focal length limited even with options up to 800mm. I’d definately try the auto crop thing if there were a compelling APS-C lens.

Just map the crop mode onto a button, and push it

The APSC mode will work just like that... except you can't turn it off. Frankly, I think the crop mode is one of the best features of mirrorless. Not only do you get to have the crop image fill up the whole viewfinder (which is a big reason that wildlife folks like crop cameras), but you also are able to save dramatically smaller RAW files, when you know you're going to discard half the full frame image anyways.

Scratches head????

Reckon I'll go spend 2 or 3 grand for a FF camera so I can shoot it in crop mode! LOL

oh.. bwud was just saying, he'd try crop mode if there were a compelling APSC lens, and I pointed out that there's no need -- you can have exactly the same experience with a full frame lens, using the crop function (it's the experience).

The crop mode is nice. For example, let's say you have a 70-200 mounted, and you're taking a picture of something that would be better photographed at 300 or 400mm, but, that's just not the lens you have on. Hit crop mode, and suddenly, you have the 110 - 320mm equivalent -- you see it through the viewfinder, and it's still f/2.8. And, the file size is less than half.

Would it be better to swap in the right lens? For sure, because the center 18 megapixels of a 43 megapixel sensor are grainier than if you tool the photo using the whole 43 megapixels and reduced it down. But it takes only a second to push a button and a lot longer to swap the lens, if you have it on you. Plus, it's not an option if the subject is beyond uncropped reach of your longest lens (which natively on Sony is 400mm, plus a 1.4x TC; their 2x doesn't count, because it's terrible).

Also, in the time that I had borrowed the A7R3, I absolutely hated changing lenses on the field. The damned sensor was a dust magnet, and the tiniest grain of sand blurs out an ugly dark blob on every photo until it's removed. On a DSLR, most of the dust goes onto the mirror or Fresnel. I'm happy to ignore what I see through the viewfinder as long as I don't have it on all my pictures!

 

[Talys]

I have no crop lenses for my A7Riii, but often crop in post because I’m focal length limited even with options up to 800mm. I’d definately try the auto crop thing if there were a compelling APS-C lens.

And what would a compelling aps-c lens look like?

Something like 200-800 with f/6.3 or f/8 at the long end would be interesting. I’m fully aware that I’ll likely not go beyond 800mm; I’m not paying 15,000 for a lens.

With a smaller image circle, keeping that aperture isn’t a huge stretch, and thus autofocus wouldn’t suffer like with f/11 on the 2XTC 100-400.

There's zero benefit to making a lens >200mm with an APS-C image circle. At those focal lengths, the diameter of the image circle is not limiting.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is why the Olympus 75-300mm opts for f/6.7 as the mechanism to shrink the lens; also, why the Fuji 100-400 is no smaller than the full frame equivalents from Canon/Nikon/Sony.

 

[bwud]

I have no crop lenses for my A7Riii, but often crop in post because I’m focal length limited even with options up to 800mm. I’d definately try the auto crop thing if there were a compelling APS-C lens.

Just map the crop mode onto a button, and push it

The APSC mode will work just like that... except you can't turn it off. Frankly, I think the crop mode is one of the best features of mirrorless. Not only do you get to have the crop image fill up the whole viewfinder (which is a big reason that wildlife folks like crop cameras), but you also are able to save dramatically smaller RAW files, when you know you're going to discard half the full frame image anyways.

Scratches head????

Reckon I'll go spend 2 or 3 grand for a FF camera so I can shoot it in crop mode! LOL

oh.. bwud was just saying, he'd try crop mode if there were a compelling APSC lens, and I pointed out that there's no need -- you can have exactly the same experience with a full frame lens, using the crop function (it's the experience).

But see how I defined compelling: 800mm with useful autofocus and without a 15,000 dollar expense. That’s conceivable with a high quality crop lens. It’s extremely unlikely with a high quality full frame lens.

Incidentally, does it actually crop the raw, or does it just add a tag to crop in post?

 

[Durf]

I have no crop lenses for my A7Riii, but often crop in post because I’m focal length limited even with options up to 800mm. I’d definately try the auto crop thing if there were a compelling APS-C lens.

Just map the crop mode onto a button, and push it

The APSC mode will work just like that... except you can't turn it off. Frankly, I think the crop mode is one of the best features of mirrorless. Not only do you get to have the crop image fill up the whole viewfinder (which is a big reason that wildlife folks like crop cameras), but you also are able to save dramatically smaller RAW files, when you know you're going to discard half the full frame image anyways.

Scratches head????

Reckon I'll go spend 2 or 3 grand for a FF camera so I can shoot it in crop mode! LOL

oh.. bwud was just saying, he'd try crop mode if there were a compelling APSC lens, and I pointed out that there's no need -- you can have exactly the same experience with a full frame lens, using the crop function (it's the experience).

The crop mode is nice. For example, let's say you have a 70-200 mounted, and you're taking a picture of something that would be better photographed at 300 or 400mm, but, that's just not the lens you have on. Hit crop mode, and suddenly, you have the 110 - 320mm equivalent -- you see it through the viewfinder, and it's still f/2.8. And, the file size is less than half.

Would it be better to swap in the right lens? For sure, because the center 18 megapixels of a 43 megapixel sensor are grainier than if you tool the photo using the whole 43 megapixels and reduced it down. But it takes only a second to push a button and a lot longer to swap the lens, if you have it on you. Plus, it's not an option if the subject is beyond uncropped reach of your longest lens (which natively on Sony is 400mm, plus a 1.4x TC; their 2x doesn't count, because it's terrible).

Also, in the time that I had borrowed the A7R3, I absolutely hated changing lenses on the field. The damned sensor was a dust magnet, and the tiniest grain of sand blurs out an ugly dark blob on every photo until it's removed. On a DSLR, most of the dust goes onto the mirror or Fresnel. I'm happy to ignore what I see through the viewfinder as long as I don't have it on all my pictures!

Doing that sounds like taking a pretty good hit on image quality, especially if you needed to crop a little more in post and make a good size print.

Yes, that's another reason I am not so excited about mirrorless, I am often out in some pretty harsh terrain and dusty conditions and sometimes changing lenses to get different perspectives. I really like having the mirror for a little added protection.....and over the years have grown attached to the sound it makes when taking a photo)

 

[Durf]

I have no crop lenses for my A7Riii, but often crop in post because I’m focal length limited even with options up to 800mm. I’d definately try the auto crop thing if there were a compelling APS-C lens.

Just map the crop mode onto a button, and push it

The APSC mode will work just like that... except you can't turn it off. Frankly, I think the crop mode is one of the best features of mirrorless. Not only do you get to have the crop image fill up the whole viewfinder (which is a big reason that wildlife folks like crop cameras), but you also are able to save dramatically smaller RAW files, when you know you're going to discard half the full frame image anyways.

Scratches head????

Reckon I'll go spend 2 or 3 grand for a FF camera so I can shoot it in crop mode! LOL

oh.. bwud was just saying, he'd try crop mode if there were a compelling APSC lens, and I pointed out that there's no need -- you can have exactly the same experience with a full frame lens, using the crop function (it's the experience).

But see how I defined compelling: 800mm with useful autofocus and without a 15,000 dollar expense. That’s conceivable with a high quality crop lens. It’s extremely unlikely with a high quality full frame lens.

Incidentally, does it actually crop the raw, or does it just add a tag to crop in post?

That does sound interesting, would love to see some image samples. I'm curious what the IQ results would look like

 

[bwud]

Well so far such a lens doesn’t exist so it’s just a hypothetical

 

[Talys]

I have no crop lenses for my A7Riii, but often crop in post because I’m focal length limited even with options up to 800mm. I’d definately try the auto crop thing if there were a compelling APS-C lens.

Just map the crop mode onto a button, and push it

The APSC mode will work just like that... except you can't turn it off. Frankly, I think the crop mode is one of the best features of mirrorless. Not only do you get to have the crop image fill up the whole viewfinder (which is a big reason that wildlife folks like crop cameras), but you also are able to save dramatically smaller RAW files, when you know you're going to discard half the full frame image anyways.

Scratches head????

Reckon I'll go spend 2 or 3 grand for a FF camera so I can shoot it in crop mode! LOL

oh.. bwud was just saying, he'd try crop mode if there were a compelling APSC lens, and I pointed out that there's no need -- you can have exactly the same experience with a full frame lens, using the crop function (it's the experience).

But see how I defined compelling: 800mm with useful autofocus and without a 15,000 dollar expense. That’s conceivable with a high quality crop lens. It’s extremely unlikely with a high quality full frame lens.

Incidentally, does it actually crop the raw, or does it just add a tag to crop in post?

The Sony crop mode is good. It's a real crop of the RAW, that takes up less than half the size of the full RAW (which is a brutal 80MB+), and also, the buffer is much larger in crop mode. It is a feature they got right.

Assuming you want 800mm equivalent (so, 500mm APSC), I fear the problem will be that you'll just have something like the Fuji 100-400: an excellent APSC lens that is about the same size, weight, and price as a full frame equivalent (from Canon/Nikon/Sony).

 

[fullstop]

But see how I defined compelling: 800mm with useful autofocus and without a 15,000 dollar expense. That’s conceivable with a high quality crop lens. It’s extremely unlikely with a high quality full frame lens.

for long tele lenses it makes no difference whether it is for APS-C or FF sensor (image circle). Lens will physically be same size - and cost the same.

 

[bwud]

But see how I defined compelling: 800mm with useful autofocus and without a 15,000 dollar expense. That’s conceivable with a high quality crop lens. It’s extremely unlikely with a high quality full frame lens.

for long tele lenses it makes no difference whether it is for APS-C or FF sensor (image circle). Lens will physically be same size - and cost the same.

I’m not concerned with size. I’m concerned with function. My 100-400 with 2X is essentially useless for moving subjects. Lenses covering smaller formats are typically less expensive.