Canon EOS M5 Coming Before Photokina [CR3]

[time123]

What also blows me away is that some companies still work on the firmware on cameras that actively add new features and enhance the camera, all for free, even after it is purchased! Not some minor junk either, such as Fuji improving the auto-focus system of the X-T1 along with lots of other useful things (http://www.fujifilm.com/news/n160204.html).

Companies like Canon.

5DII – manual audio gain, etc.
7D – a 66% increase in RAW buffer depth, Auto ISO limits, etc.
5DIII – uncompressed HDMI out, f/8 AF, etc.
1D X – f/8 AF, EC in M mode, etc.

So if you are suggesting Canon doesn't add new functionality in old cameras via firmware, it's because either your memory or your knowledge of facts – or both – is badly flawed.

Let's pick a camera that a whole lot of people have. Latest 5D Mark III firmware upgrades:

Canon EOS 5D Mark III firmware version 1.3.3:
* Improves the AF controllability when shooting in Live View mode with a wide-angle lens (fixed focal length or zoom).
* Corrects some incorrect indications on the "English" and "Russian" menu screens.

Firmware Version 1.2.3 incorporates the following improvements and fixes:
Fixes a phenomenon in which the flash may not fire depending on the timing of when the shutter button is pressed.
Fixes a phenomenon in which the AF microadjustment value may change.*
Fixes a phenomenon in which the LCD monitor may show a line of false color along boundaries of high contrast.
Fixes a phenomenon in which the histogram of a LiveView image is incorrectly displayed when an HDMI cable is connected.
Enables the brightness of the camera's LCD monitor to be adjusted even when an HDMI cable is connected.

Those are some real barn-burners for sure. But in all seriousness taking a quick look at all of the 5d Mark III firmware updates it looks like a total of three things were added over 4.5 years:

- Enables the brightness of the camera's LCD monitor to be adjusted even when an HDMI cable is connected.
- Uncompressed HDMI output is now enabled.
- Enables the center AF point to autofocus when the camera is used with Canon EF lens/extender combinations whose combined maximum aperture is f/8.

I'm not going to analyze all of the Canon firmware updates for all the cameras but the majority of the updates are for fixing broken things. Adding "etc." with no details isn't very supportive of your case either. Many of the enhancements are generally limited to specific cases/uses and - remember, like many things on the Internet: in my opinion - relatively minor in comparison to such things as complete overhauls of the auto-focus system and adding things like AF eye tracking.

Just look at Magic Lantern to see all the stuff the 5d Mark III (and the 5D2, 6D, 7D, 50D, 60D, 500D/T1i, 550D/T2i, 600D/T3i, 650D/T4i, 700D/T5i, 1100D/T3, EOS M) can do but Canon decided not to include. And that was stuff put together by hackers who just decided to figured it all out. So just imagine of all the things Canon could make all of these cameras do since they have full access to the code and complete knowledge of inner workings of the camera. If that isn't evidence that these cameras are a whole lot more capable than Canon makes them out to be I don't know what is.

And you really don't need to be insulting friend, it's just a discussion on the Internet.

 

[time123]

watch CDL in full swing. ;D

Did you read my NDL and FDL comments? I'm double dipping! Despite the fact that I only own lots of Canon gear Corporate said I still couldn't moonlight for a third (sorry Canon!).

 

[Loswr]

I'm not going to analyze all of the Canon firmware updates for all the cameras

No, of course you're not. You're going to provide one example from Fuji of one update to one camera. That's real effort on your part, really effective in supporting your point.

However, you did very effectively demonstrate that Canon is quite diligent in releasing updates to address both minor issues and add major features. You should receive your CDL membership card soon. ;D

 

[time123]

I'm not going to analyze all of the Canon firmware updates for all the cameras

No, of course you're not. You're going to provide one example from Fuji of one update to one camera. That's real effort on your part, really effective in supporting your point.

However, you did very effectively demonstrate that Canon is quite diligent in releasing updates to address both minor issues and add major features. You should receive your CDL membership card soon. ;D

That's right, I'm not going to do your homework, and yes, I am going to choose an extremely popular and common camera (5D3, probably the most common one from your list) because I only have a finite amount of time to spend on Internet forums. And when I write about innovation of course I am going to use an innovative company as an example, that is the whole point. On the topic of effort I actually provided detailed information in a post rather than just saying a couple abbreviations with no actual specifics, followed by "etc." like yourself. On the 5D3 if you think only adding those three things over the timespan of 4.5 years classify as major new additions and Canon's best effort then so be it as we clearly have a difference of opinion even though Magic Lantern proved so much more could be done. I'm done; it's been fun neuroanatomist.

 

[scyrene]

I'm done

Oh good.

 

[Loswr]

I'm not going to analyze all of the Canon firmware updates for all the cameras

No, of course you're not. You're going to provide one example from Fuji of one update to one camera. That's real effort on your part, really effective in supporting your point.

However, you did very effectively demonstrate that Canon is quite diligent in releasing updates to address both minor issues and add major features. You should receive your CDL membership card soon. ;D

That's right, I'm not going to do your homework, and yes, I am going to choose an extremely popular and common camera (5D3, probably the most common one from your list) because I only have a finite amount of time to spend on Internet forums. And when I write about innovation of course I am going to use an innovative company as an example, that is the whole point. On the topic of effort I actually provided detailed information in a post rather than just saying a couple abbreviations with no actual specifics, followed by "etc.". On the 5D3 if you think only adding those three things over the timespan of 4.5 years classify as major new additions and Canon's best effort then so be it as we clearly have a difference of opinion, even though Magic Lantern proved so much more could be done. I'm done; it's been fun neuroanatomist.

Lol. You failed to do your own homework. One firmware update, one camera. Pretty weak evidence, but thanks for playing!

 

[9VIII]

...the majority of the updates are for fixing broken things. Adding "etc." with no details isn't very supportive of your case either. Many of the enhancements are generally limited to specific cases/uses and - remember, like many things on the Internet: in my opinion - relatively minor in comparison to such things as complete overhauls of the auto-focus system and adding things like AF eye tracking.

The Fuji X system isn't even five years old yet, they're doing massive firmware updates because everything they released before this year was severely flawed.
The Mirrorless industry as a whole is so new that everything they've been doing for the last five years is basically just beta testing, whereas with the EOS ecosystem Canon achieved just about everything they really wanted to do with a digital camera nearly a decade ago.
The features that get implemented in Canon products are closer to flawless than any other manufacturer, the list of firmware updates is just proof that they pay extremely close attention to functionality.

Some people just don't agree with the specifics of how to segment their market.

 

[c.d.embrey]

I find Classic/Retro styling to be a major turn-off. I prefer good ergonomics, like those of the Sony α6300. The M3 was getting there and I had hoped that the M5 would be as good as the NEX and α6xxx.

 

[crashpc]

Then why do you keep on desperately begging for Canon to build the specific camera(s) and lens(es) you personally want? Just buy those alternatives and move on... :

Don't worry, I will - once I need to replace my current gear.

Did you tell Canon that? I'm just sure they'll do anything and make any camera you want to keep you as a customer. :

Telling aleading manufacturer what to do at the edge of ones jump? Heh, too late. They had enaugh time to see where people want to jump. Jumped few months ago. Sorry Canon, maybe one day in next 10 years.

Good for you! Just don't fool yourself into thinking that Canon cares...

And so what? They can start making diapers instead of camera, not caring what do I want. That was absolutely not the point. They´re obviously loosing some users in their market for not really good reasons. Okay, let´s continue and turn the company into low-end company selling young japanese women some stuff. That doesn´t make sense.

 

[Loswr]

And so what? They can start making diapers instead of camera, not caring what do I want. That was absolutely not the point. They´re obviously loosing some users in their market for not really good reasons. Okay, let´s continue and turn the company into low-end company selling young japanese women some stuff. That doesn´t make sense.

So, because they didn't meet your needs, they're going to become a low-end company? Yeah, that makes sense. : : :

 

[crashpc]

And so what? They can start making diapers instead of camera, not caring what do I want. That was absolutely not the point. They´re obviously loosing some users in their market for not really good reasons. Okay, let´s continue and turn the company into low-end company selling young japanese women some stuff. That doesn´t make sense.

So, because they didn't meet your needs, they're going to become a low-end company? Yeah, that makes sense. : : :

You know it´s not because they don´t meet only MY needs. They don´t meet needs of many users. Some are arguing, some moved on ad bought DSLR for no other choice, some jumped already. There is no serious mid-range, nor high end MILC from Canon. That´s the topic, if you didn´t notice.

 

[Orangutan]

And so what? They can start making diapers instead of camera, not caring what do I want. That was absolutely not the point. They´re obviously loosing some users in their market for not really good reasons. Okay, let´s continue and turn the company into low-end company selling young japanese women some stuff. That doesn´t make sense.

So, because they didn't meet your needs, they're going to become a low-end company? Yeah, that makes sense. : : :

it´s not because they don´t meet only MY needs. They don´t meet needs of many users. Some are arguing, some moved on ad bought DSLR for no other choice, some jumped already.

That's a good question: how can we tell how many no longer feel Canon meets their needs and have left Canon behind? If a few Internet posters say "all my friends switched" does that really tell us anything? What broad data set do you think might give us an idea of how many have "jumped" vs. how many have continued to buy?

 

[rrcphoto]

And so what? They can start making diapers instead of camera, not caring what do I want. That was absolutely not the point. They´re obviously loosing some users in their market for not really good reasons. Okay, let´s continue and turn the company into low-end company selling young japanese women some stuff. That doesn´t make sense.

they know they'll always lose some users / clients.

I wonder how many people really worked in a large environment with millions of users before .. you know you'll always leak some, but you work hard at gaining in more, and trying to hit the 90% tile that will stick and give you more money.

it's impossible to satisfy each and everyone's potential whims to what they are looking for.

 

[rrcphoto]

And so what? They can start making diapers instead of camera, not caring what do I want. That was absolutely not the point. They´re obviously loosing some users in their market for not really good reasons. Okay, let´s continue and turn the company into low-end company selling young japanese women some stuff. That doesn´t make sense.

So, because they didn't meet your needs, they're going to become a low-end company? Yeah, that makes sense. : : :

You know it´s not because they don´t meet only MY needs. They don´t meet needs of many users. Some are arguing, some moved on ad bought DSLR for no other choice, some jumped already. There is no serious mid-range, nor high end MILC from Canon. That´s the topic, if you didn´t notice.

and how big is that?

let's assume that it's 1/3 of the mirrorless pie .. that's what .. a 8% slice of the market, fiercely competed with fuji, sony, olympus, pany?

how much R&D would Canon have to suck away from EF mount to make that work? for what?

maybe a 35% share of that pie - or 3% overall?

it's in a way cheaper for canon to let you and others to go to other vendors than to burn EF resources (and remove sales from EF front) to make a system so that absolutely everyone would be happy in the mirrorless ecosystem with canon.

and for what?

in reality even mirrorless isn't doing well in terms of sales - treading water is never a market you want to roll the hard six into.

 

[AvTvM]

You know it´s not because they don´t meet only MY needs. They don´t meet needs of many users. Some are arguing, some moved on ad bought DSLR for no other choice, some jumped already. There is no serious mid-range, nor high end MILC from Canon. That´s the topic, if you didn´t notice.

exactly! and all the canon-defense-league rethoric, smoke and mirrors(lappers) does not matter. i consider it a shame for an "industry leader" whose advertising motto in german for many years has been "canon kann's, bevor es andere können" ... "Canon can, before others can" ... something's gone awfully astray at Canon, since around 2010, when their sensors were falling behind competition. zest for true innovation close to zero. iterate, re-iterate, regurgitate, mirror slap, slap, slap ... milk, milk, milk ... for all it's worth .. and then some.

so unnecessary, so stupid, Canon!

 

[rrcphoto]

You know it´s not because they don´t meet only MY needs. They don´t meet needs of many users. Some are arguing, some moved on ad bought DSLR for no other choice, some jumped already. There is no serious mid-range, nor high end MILC from Canon. That´s the topic, if you didn´t notice.

exactly! and all the canon-defense-league rethoric, smoke and mirrors(lappers) does not matter. i consider it a shame for an "industry leader" whose advertising motto in german for many years has been "canon kann's, bevor es andere können" ... "Canon can, before others can" ... something's gone awfully astray at Canon, since around 2010, when their sensors were falling behind competition. zest for true innovation close to zero. iterate, re-iterate, regurgitate, mirror slap, slap, slap ... milk, milk, milk ... for all it's worth .. and then some.

so unnecessary, so stupid, Canon!

no, go find something else and quit sniffling in here.

easy.

 

[Orangutan]

You know it´s not because they don´t meet only MY needs. They don´t meet needs of many users. Some are arguing, some moved on ad bought DSLR for no other choice, some jumped already. There is no serious mid-range, nor high end MILC from Canon. That´s the topic, if you didn´t notice.

i consider it a shame for an "industry leader"

Let's say you take out a large loan to open a business, perhaps a bakery. You have a special bread you love to bake, and which a few loyal customers love; however, most of of your customers want mundane breads.

What products would you make? As an artisan baker, you would ignore the masses, bake what you want and enjoy the patronage of your small group of loyal customers. But you have expenses: your business loan, rent or mortgage on your home, feeding your family, etc.

An artist or artisan is more free to make what they want to make; a business must make what the customers will buy at a profitable price. Canon, and all other camera companies, are not artists nor artisans; they are businesses. Their job is to repay their debts, meet monthly payroll, and return dividends to shareholders. To do otherwise would be stupid.

The second key fact is that Canon knows far better than you, or anyone else on this forum, what their customers will pay for.

 

[crashpc]

Orangutan: That looks irrelevant. Nobody wants them to stop doing what they do. They can continue, AND expand sideways, delivering what more people want.

As rrcphoto suggested - it takes some development and stuff. One half they actually have, but not sell, the other half should be "easy" to expand. 3% of the total market is enaugh to hire 5 more engineers in the development! It would pay back soon with 3%.

 

[scyrene]

You know it´s not because they don´t meet only MY needs. They don´t meet needs of many users. Some are arguing, some moved on ad bought DSLR for no other choice, some jumped already. There is no serious mid-range, nor high end MILC from Canon. That´s the topic, if you didn´t notice.

i consider it a shame for an "industry leader"

Let's say you take out a large loan to open a business, perhaps a bakery. You have a special bread you love to bake, and which a few loyal customers love; however, most of of your customers want mundane breads.

What products would you make? As an artisan baker, you would ignore the masses, bake what you want and enjoy the patronage of your small group of loyal customers. But you have expenses: your business loan, rent or mortgage on your home, feeding your family, etc.

An artist or artisan is more free to make what they want to make; a business must make what the customers will buy at a profitable price. Canon, and all other camera companies, are not artists nor artisans; they are businesses. Their job is to repay their debts, meet monthly payroll, and return dividends to shareholders. To do otherwise would be stupid.

The second key fact is that Canon knows far better than you, or anyone else on this forum, what their customers will pay for.

By this point, AvTvM is trolling. Maybe he believes what he says, maybe it's partly or wholly a persona (the 'stupid Canon' thing has become his motto). Patiently trying to explain reality is of no use, especially the hundredth time it's been done, though I salute you for trying.

 

[scyrene]

Orangutan: That looks irrelevant. Nobody wants them to stop doing what they do. They can continue, AND expand sideways, delivering what more people want.

As rrcphoto suggested - it takes some development and stuff. One half they actually have, but not sell, the other half should be "easy" to expand. 3% of the total market is enaugh to hire 5 more engineers in the development! It would pay back soon with 3%.

The pertinent question is, why do you - with no special knowledge of the actual costs, the internal workings of Canon, or evidence from the camera industry at large - assume you know better than they do?