Canon EOS R5 Mark II to arrive before EOS R1? [CR2]

[Michael Clark]

My guess would be:
R5 mkii development announcement in December 2023 followed by a gazillion teasers...
It would be available in February 2024 just before CP+
R1 in time for summer olympics.

I could imagine though that the R5 mk ii timeline might be earlier in order to have time in between the two releases.

In the past decade or so 1-Series and 5-Series cameras seemed to have had the same target release dates during their multi-year development (2012, 2016, 2020, 2024). Sometimes the 1-Series was ready for market first, at other times the 5-series was ready first. Sometimes one was announced first but the other began shipping earlier. It's probably getting close enough to the field testing phase for anything hitting the market one year from now that those on the inside know which product team is slightly ahead of the other at this point.

 

[Michael Clark]

Even as a hobbyist, having the right tool to make life easier and more enjoyable is a huge return on your investment.

Someone needs to go back to accounting school and learn the difference between an investment and an expense.

An investment is an expenditure with the expectation that it will produce revenue or capital gain in the future that more than offsets the initial expenditure.

 

[Michael Clark]

My unfounded prediction is that the R6 III and R8 II will have 30 MP which is one of the last things I see EOS R owners holding out for.
Also, the R5 should be under $3K USD by 2024 making it also a worthy upgrade choice.

Here we are in 2023, and the 2016 EOS 5D Mark IV that debuted at $3,499 is still listed at $2,699 (with a current $200 discount to $2,499). It's only dropped that far because no 5D Mark V replaced it in 2020 and the 5D Mark IV is still available.

In 2020, four years after introduction, the going price for the 5D Mark IV was $2,899, only $600 below introduction. So in 2024, four years after its debut, we might see the R5 drop to $3,299 before it disappears from dealers because the R5 Mark II has replaced it in the catalog.

 

[Michael Clark]

Be mindful that some hardware bugs do crop up on the 1st production run of any Canon camera body.

There, I fixed it for you.

 

[David - Sydney]

Are you saying that the coding is independent of the sensor? So what happens when you change the fps setting…the sensor magically knows and adjusts the bit depth accordingly? Then the RAW converter uses the same exact algorithm to reduce 14, 13 or 12 bits to 8 bits?

The bit depth changes based on the difference between mechanical shutter, EFCS and electronic shutter. There is always an electronic shutter if I understand correctly but it is open longer than the mechanical shutter when it is used.
I expect (but cannot be sure) that the difference is due to the mechanical shutter and the sensor read rate.
Where would you think that coding comes into the equation?
I guess that it is always possible that the processor deliberately downgrades the bit depth depending on the mechanical shutter setting but logically I can't see why Canon would do so.

 

[dolina]

There, I fixed it for you.

You're off topic. This is a Canon forum!

 

[neuroanatomist]

The bit depth changes based on the difference between mechanical shutter, EFCS and electronic shutter.

That is not correct. Per the Canon specs, “14-bit with Mechanical shutter and Electronic 1st Curtain, 13-bit A/D conversion with H+ mode, 12-bit A/D conversion with Electronic shutter.”

H+ mode is 12 fps shooting with either mechanical or EFC shutter (the other modes are H = 6 fps mechanical / 8 fps EFCS and L = 3 fps with either mechanical or EFC shutter).

Where would you think that coding comes into the equation?
I guess that it is always possible that the processor deliberately downgrades the bit depth depending on the mechanical shutter setting but logically I can't see why Canon would do so.

Yes, the processor deliberately downgrades the bit depth to 13-bit when either mechanical or EFC shutter are running at 12 fps, and further downgrades it to 12-bit in full electronic shutter at 20 fps. The logic seems obvious – at 12 fps, the processor can’t keep up with the full 14-bits of RAW data so it eliminates one bit, and at 20 fps it would fall even further behind so two bits must be dropped (with successive decreases in DR for each bit lost). So coding is clearly part of the equation.

 

[unfocused]

I personally think it depends on how you treat the hobby.
Even as a hobbyist, having the right tool to make life easier and more enjoyable is a huge return on your investment.

Someone needs to go back to accounting school and learn the difference between an investment and an expense.

An investment is an expenditure with the expectation that it will produce revenue or capital gain in the future that more than offsets the initial expenditure.

Someone needs to be less pedantic. Clearly @TonyG was talking colloquially and made a good point. We invest money and time in our hobbies and the return on that investment comes in the form of satisfaction that pays concrete dividends by increasing our enjoyment of life, reducing stress and possibly even extending our lives. All of these can and do produce capital gains that can offset the original expense. Even just one additional year of quality living is worth more than the cost of a camera for most people.

 

[David - Sydney]

That is not correct. Per the Canon specs, “14-bit with Mechanical shutter and Electronic 1st Curtain, 13-bit A/D conversion with H+ mode, 12-bit A/D conversion with Electronic shutter.”

H+ mode is 12 fps shooting with either mechanical or EFC shutter (the other modes are H = 6 fps mechanical / 8 fps EFCS and L = 3 fps with either mechanical or EFC shutter).

Yes, the processor deliberately downgrades the bit depth to 13-bit when either mechanical or EFC shutter are running at 12 fps, and further downgrades it to 12-bit in full electronic shutter at 20 fps. The logic seems obvious – at 12 fps, the processor can’t keep up with the full 14-bits of RAW data so it eliminates one bit, and at 20 fps it would fall even further behind so two bits must be dropped (with successive decreases in DR for each bit lost). So coding is clearly part of the equation.

Yes I see your point....
It could be the processor or bus speed limitation to the buffer but probably the processor as I don't believe that CRaw (more processing power needed but less bus speed) provides any better bit depth. Writing to the card is a separate bottleneck.
R5
8k DCI (35.3mp) * 30fps * 10 bit = ~10.8gb/second
45mp * 20fps * 12 bit = ~10.8gb/second
45mp * 12fps * 14 bit = ~7.6gb/second

R3
6k (~19.4mp) * 60 * 10 bit = ~11.6gb/second
24.1mp * 30fps * 14 bit = ~10.1gb/second

 

[David - Sydney]

Someone needs to go back to accounting school and learn the difference between an investment and an expense.

An investment is an expenditure with the expectation that it will produce revenue or capital gain in the future that more than offsets the initial expenditure.

My personal expenditures don't need to be auditable from a GAAP accounting perspective. My income is post-income tax and although spending on some investments may need additional tax review for profit/loss but all other spend is expensed and not depreciated from an accounting point of view.

If you are referring to a company that needs to be an ongoing concern for profit/loss then that is completely different to how we personally treat a hobby where we invest in our happiness.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Someone needs to go back to accounting school and learn the difference between an investment and an expense.

An investment is an expenditure with the expectation that it will produce revenue or capital gain in the future that more than offsets the initial expenditure.

Several scientific studies have associated active engagement in a hobby with a longer lifespan. Economists estimate the value of a statistical year of human life at between $50,000 and $150,000.

Viewed through that lens, investment in photography gear to support a hobby delivers a damn good ROI.

 

[Exploreshootshare]

In Germany, Canon started to drop prices on R5/ R6 and R5c again. The rebate is 500 € at the moment. With added promotions such as trade-in etc. you can get the R5 for 3.699 € instead of 4.499 €, R6mki for 1.799 €. Plus, if your trade-in camera is worth more, it further reduces the price. I called at several stores this morning because I asked about the trade-in value of my R (I got tears in my eyes because it was so low ). Two of the sales people said the "price drop seems to permanent" based on the information Canon sent them. Apparently, the wording is/ was somewhat confusing because (loosely translated) Canon explained the "price drop for March and beyond..." (In German: "Preissenkungen für März und darüber hinaus").

So, if the R5 actually did drop by 500 € permanently, I'd take it as a sign that the R5mkii could be announced in 2023...

 

[Kit.]

A bug ("phenomenon" in Canon parlance) isn't the same as a new/updated feature. Canon can be very quick to fix phenomenons in a firmware update.

Canon was quick to update to firmware 1.1 on the R5 and it included a bunch of improvements but most importantly addressing the overheating concerns from reviewers (which was completely overblown) from using a timer to actual temperature measurements.

Do you know when the firmware 1.0 branch had its feature freeze and the firmware 1.1 started to be developed? Could as well be before the R5 was even publicly announced.

The presence of the temperature sensors alone tells us that this functionality was planned since the beginning, just wasn't ready for the 1.0 release.

 

[koenkooi]

[...]
The 30 minute limit is a simple table lookup value. If removing all the logic was costly then changing it to 300 minutes would be the simple solution.

The 30 minute limit might be harder to change if the hardware has been designed with it in mind. Suppose you designed the camera to have just enough capacity to not overheat within 45 minutes, since it will at most record 30 minutes at a time. Raising the limit in software would be as easy as you say, but the consequences might be a lot further reaching.

For the R5 specifically, people have already shown that back-to-back recording isn't an issue, so the refusal to change the limit is most likely a political issue and not a technical issue.

And FWIW, the R8 has the limit set to 120 minutes, for reasons unknown. It is more than you can get on a single battery, but with USB PD you are only limited by the size of your SD card.

 

[AlanF]

In Germany, Canon started to drop prices on R5/ R6 and R5c again. The rebate is 500 € at the moment. With added promotions such as trade-in etc. you can get the R5 for 3.699 € instead of 4.499 €, R6mki for 1.799 €. Plus, if your trade-in camera is worth more, it further reduces the price. I called at several stores this morning because I asked about the trade-in value of my R (I got tears in my eyes because it was so low ). Two of the sales people said the "price drop seems to permanent" based on the information Canon sent them. Apparently, the wording is/ was somewhat confusing because (loosely translated) Canon explained the "price drop for March and beyond..." (In German: "Preissenkungen für März und darüber hinaus").

So, if the R5 actually did drop by 500 € permanently, I'd take it as a sign that the R5mkii could be announced in 2023...

The price in the UK for the R5 is still £4299, which converts into €4860.

 

[Michael Clark]

The 5Div was seen as an incremental upgrade to the 5Diii but it overall was a much better camera. Luckily I got it second hand and then sold it for a slightly higher price when I got my R5.

Increasing the second hand market will be a good thing as used R5 are hard to come by giving Canon another price point to work with.

For me, I upgrade when I hit the limits of my current body for the genres that I shoot. That hasn't happened yet with my R5. Of course, there are a few niggling but not blocking issues.

I agree on the comparison of the 5D Mark III and the 5D Mark IV. On paper they don't look that much different, other than the increase in resolution.
But the Mark IV just seems to work better in a way that gives the user confidence that it will consistently do what it is supposed to do. I never got that feeling from the Mark III. Versus the Mark III, the Mark IV AF seemed to be faster and more consistent from shot to shot. Plus the flicker reduction is a big difference for the work I do under flickering stadium/gym lights.

 

[koenkooi]

The price in the UK for the R5 is still £4299, which converts into €4860.

Here in .nl the R5 is €4549, with a €500 discount on checkout to make it €4049. That €311 difference pre-discount seems surprisingly large to me, even after reading your posts about this over the years.

 

[Michael Clark]

It would surprise me if this rumor is true (wouldn't be the first time). It seems like the usual pattern with Canon has been to announce a new 1 series body and then follow that up about six months later with a 5 series, keeping each on a four-year cycle. I could see an R1 announced this fall and released shortly after the New Year, then an R5II announced sometime in March-April with availability in June 2024.

In 2012 the 1D X had been announced the previous October but delays held up initial shipments until late March, when the Olympic shooters and agencies got priority. Most everyone else who had ordered one had to wait until late summer to get a 1D X. The 5D Mark III was announced March 2, 2012 but shipped in late March to anyone who had preordered one.

In 2016 the 1D X Mark II was available by April while the 5D Mark IV didn't hit the shelves until September.

In 2020 supply chain issues delayed the R5 from a planned late March (then late May) release until late summer. The 1D X Mark III started shipping in February, but after initial shipments they were also hard to come by until well into the fall.

 

[Michael Clark]

You should watch Gerald Undone and his review. I’m a Canon guy, but the usable dynamic range is 11-11.5 on a good day. Thats not very impressive… R3 has almost 1 stop more than the R5. The only Canon mirrorless camera that has good Dynamic Range is the R5c with roughly 13 stops. Maybe 13.5

The R5C uses the exact same sensor as the R5. Someone doesn't know how to accurately measure DR if they think the same sensor in one camera is 2 stops better than the same sensor in another camera.

 

[koenkooi]

The R5C uses the exact same sensor as the R5. Someone doesn't know how to accurately measure DR if they think the same sensor in one camera is 2 stops better than the same sensor in another camera.

The mention of Gerald Undone makes me think this is about DR in video. And in that case, he is correct. The R5C allows shooting in CLOG2, which has a gamma curve that captures more dynamic range than CLOG3 (or regular non-log). The regular R5 doesn't allow CLOG2, only CLOG3.

You are correct that both share the same sensor and in stills mode, shooting RAW, you will get identical DR. But the R5-non-C captures and stores video in such a way that it limits the video DR. On top of that, video DR is measured in a different way than still DR, which complicates discussions even more.

Also, Gerald is very clear in his review that the difference in video DR isn't due to the sensor, but caused by the available log profiles.