Two Prosumer Mirrorless Camera Bodies in Development [CR2]

[crashpc]

There are many aspects going along, or against each other in terms of final price.

Easier assembly, less testing
Less components
Hot new tech sold for premium
Economies of scale
Demand
Input variables price changes
Exchange rates

One time, we had really cheap M50 kit in the Europe. Like at the day it hit the shops, it sold for $770 with 15-45mm lens. Not a bad price for new product release. Canon EOS M6 + 15-45 was for $850-950 that day.

 

[AvTvM]

So why are Sony cameras not significantly lower cost than Canon cameras?

Good one. Price of bodies and even more so of FE lenses ... that's where Sony is incredibly stupid. While they rejoice over their extra high margins they are failing to grab enough market share quickly enough to really build critical mass ... 1st gen A7 bodies have shown, at what (comparatively low) prices FF MILCs can be sold [presumably still with profit and not at or below cost]. Had they followed it up with a slightly nerfed "entry level" A7 II model at USD/ € 999,- ... it would have done the same in the market what Canon's EOS 300D and 350D did back in the day ["first DSLR for less than a grand"] ... Sony "A7 IIX" could have been made "first FF camera body under a grand" ... it would have laid waste to Canon's market share and profitability. And given the Sony system the needed boost to quickly establish themselves in the market ... and rapidly pass Nikon. Mirrorslapping Nikon would have been hit even harder than Canon.

yes i know, easy to say in retrospect.

But looking at Sony FE lens lineup and their incredibly high prices ... the main reason why many folks who are playing with the thought of switching are not acting on it.

 

[kaptainkatsu]

I broke down and bought an M50. I really needed a smaller solution than my 1DX2 for certain situations. My new job involves producing videos for social media (by myself with no assistant) so I really needed a flippy screen. I really wanted an a7III but since it didn't have a flippy screen I decided against it. GH5 fit the bill but the video AF sucks

Certainly will be watching what happens in the FF department and will most likely pick one up when they are released.

 

[kaptainkatsu]

Mirrorless means less component cost - cheaper cameras?

Why would they pass those savings along to customers? Mirrorless means 'hot new tech' which means premium pricing. Premium price plus lower production cost means even more profit.

I think initially no, since they need to recoup R&D costs. But I think that once it rolls through the lifecycle, discounts will come quick and probably significant.

Just look at Apple, they just roll down their flagship down the line every year for two years. You can get what was once a flagship phone from 2 years ago at half the price.

 

[mb66energy]

Mirrorless camera should be cheaper to manufacture than DSLR of the same functionality.

The simple reasons for this are that you remove a number of opto-mechanical components that are expensive to manufacture and require precise i.e. costly alignment in the manufacturing process.

You remove pentaprism and other optical parts of the viewfinder including diopter adjuster, slapping mirror with another mirror section for PDAF, and PDAF sensor itself,

For example, only the costly EOS 5D and EOS 1D give you precise 100% viewfinder coverage in FF Canon DSLRs. On a mirrorless this is easy and essentially comes free.

You need to add EVF, but this is an electronic component with a simple diopter adjustmant.

So why are Sony cameras not significantly lower cost than Canon cameras?

Maybe EVF is simpler than OVF + PDAF but it is a newly developed component especially the OLED ones and it needs some processing power + sensors to gain very high refresh rates and negligible lag. And optical components like small lenses despite multicoated cannot be very expensive because they are found in lots of kit lenses and they make e.g. 2 EUR production cost while the large front element costs maybe 5...10 EUR. Body components are real mass products, a lot of lenses not that much!

So I am not convinced that mirror-less is really cheaper because they left numerous things and added a few ones instead. Especially OLED _color_ displays with _long term stability_ are - if they really are available - a very new product line!

 

[jeanluc]

On the other hand my 5D4 in liveview mode is a very nice mirroless camera, only with a ... mirror ;D ;D ;D


« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 11:02:30 AM by tron »



I agree with the above.

I have switched my APSC shooting to the M5 and EFM system. It is great. But for landscape use, my 5D4 in live view gives me all the mirrorless "advantage" I need.

So I am actually waiting for a Canon body with D850/5DSR resolution (hopefully not some crazy 100MP monster file sized creation)with 5D4 DR and IQ.

If its a 5DSR II DSLR, great, I'll buy it. If its a mirrorless equivalent, great, I'll likely buy it too. But if its mirrorless, it better use EF glass somehow.

 

[Deleted member 380306]

I broke down and bought an M50. I really needed a smaller solution than my 1DX2 for certain situations. My new job involves producing videos for social media (by myself with no assistant) so I really needed a flippy screen. I really wanted an a7III but since it didn't have a flippy screen I decided against it. GH5 fit the bill but the video AF sucks

Certainly will be watching what happens in the FF department and will most likely pick one up when they are released.

How do you find the IQ of this little camera to that of the 1DX2? I've seen many a nice image from the Canon's 450d to the 80d, I would think when the ISO gets high and light drops things will change a lot. But so tempted to have one of these with the adapter to compliment my 6d2

 

[rsdofny]

I think that this is a chicken and egg problem. When A7 was introduced, the lens library was far from complete. I think that Sony thinks that its lens library together with those from 3rd parties is enough to make a difference and pushes the A73 price to sub$2000 level. The availability of the Sigma MC-11 adapter just adds fuel to the fire. Based on the flood of news from Canon, I think that Canon wants to stem its customer base from deflecting to Sony. But until there is spec coming out, who really knows when the Canon camera will come?

So why are Sony cameras not significantly lower cost than Canon cameras?

Good one. Price of bodies and even more so of FE lenses ... that's where Sony is incredibly stupid. While they rejoice over their extra high margins they are failing to grab enough market share quickly enough to really build critical mass ... 1st gen A7 bodies have shown, at what (comparatively low) prices FF MILCs can be sold [presumably still with profit and not at or below cost]. Had they followed it up with a slightly nerfed "entry level" A7 II model at USD/ € 999,- ... it would have done the same in the market what Canon's EOS 300D and 350D did back in the day ["first DSLR for less than a grand"] ... Sony "A7 IIX" could have been made "first FF camera body under a grand" ... it would have laid waste to Canon's market share and profitability. And given the Sony system the needed boost to quickly establish themselves in the market ... and rapidly pass Nikon. Mirrorslapping Nikon would have been hit even harder than Canon.

yes i know, easy to say in retrospect.

But looking at Sony FE lens lineup and their incredibly high prices ... the main reason why many folks who are playing with the thought of switching are not acting on it.

 

[nchoh]

Mirrorless camera should be cheaper to manufacture than DSLR of the same functionality.

The simple reasons for this are that you remove a number of opto-mechanical components that are expensive to manufacture and require precise i.e. costly alignment in the manufacturing process.

You remove pentaprism and other optical parts of the viewfinder including diopter adjuster, slapping mirror with another mirror section for PDAF, and PDAF sensor itself,

For example, only the costly EOS 5D and EOS 1D give you precise 100% viewfinder coverage in FF Canon DSLRs. On a mirrorless this is easy and essentially comes free.

You need to add EVF, but this is an electronic component with a simple diopter adjustmant.

So why are Sony cameras not significantly lower cost than Canon cameras?

We don't know the cost of Sony and Canon cameras, we only know the price the companies choose to sell them at. Besides, the costs are incredibly hard to calculate. There's the direct cost of manufacture of each unit and then there is the development cost that has to be amortized across all the sales.

 

[Mikehit]

Mirrorless camera should be cheaper to manufacture than DSLR of the same functionality.

The simple reasons for this are that you remove a number of opto-mechanical components that are expensive to manufacture and require precise i.e. costly alignment in the manufacturing process.

You remove pentaprism and other optical parts of the viewfinder including diopter adjuster, slapping mirror with another mirror section for PDAF, and PDAF sensor itself,

For example, only the costly EOS 5D and EOS 1D give you precise 100% viewfinder coverage in FF Canon DSLRs. On a mirrorless this is easy and essentially comes free.

You need to add EVF, but this is an electronic component with a simple diopter adjustmant.

So why are Sony cameras not significantly lower cost than Canon cameras?

We don't know the cost of Sony and Canon cameras, we only know the price the companies choose to sell them at. Besides, the costs are incredibly hard to calculate. There's the direct cost of manufacture of each unit and then there is the development cost that has to be amortized across all the sales.

Well, everyone who has replied to my comment has proved one thing: mirrorless will not be cheaper as a result of removing the mirrorbox assembly because there are far more important things, and more significant things, to consider.

 

[Etienne]

I broke down and bought an M50. I really needed a smaller solution than my 1DX2 for certain situations. My new job involves producing videos for social media (by myself with no assistant) so I really needed a flippy screen. I really wanted an a7III but since it didn't have a flippy screen I decided against it. GH5 fit the bill but the video AF sucks

Certainly will be watching what happens in the FF department and will most likely pick one up when they are released.

Every review of Canon's DPAF, including the M50, reports that AF in video is excellent. I have three Canon bodies with DPAF - the T7i, 77D, and M6 - and AF works flawlessly in all of them. The video quality is hohum, but AF is spot on.
Maybe you are doing something wrong.

 

[Talys]

I broke down and bought an M50. I really needed a smaller solution than my 1DX2 for certain situations. My new job involves producing videos for social media (by myself with no assistant) so I really needed a flippy screen. I really wanted an a7III but since it didn't have a flippy screen I decided against it. GH5 fit the bill but the video AF sucks

Certainly will be watching what happens in the FF department and will most likely pick one up when they are released.

Every review of Canon's DPAF, including the M50, reports that AF in video is excellent. I have three Canon bodies with DPAF - the T7i, 77D, and M6 - and AF works flawlessly in all of them. The video quality is hohum, but AF is spot on.
Maybe you are doing something wrong.

I believe kaptainkatsu said the Panasonic GH5 video sucks, not the M50. M50 is still preorder (not shipping yet) isn't it?

An M5 with a fully articulating screen would be kind of cool, with Eye autofocus too, that hopefully that also works in continuous AF.

 

[AvTvM]

to robo-manufatcure a fully electronic, solid-state camera is definitely a simple matter compared to assemble, adjust, align, quality control cameras with fine-mechanical moving parts which need to work to a precision of 1/100mm .... that alone will make mass-production of mirrorless, mechanics-free cameras significantly less costly.

Mirrorslapper:
* mirror + submirror assembly [perfect alignment absolutely critical, 1/100mm, to be maintained even also at full fps speed and for 100-300k actuations]
* separate Phase-AF sensor and unit [perfect alignment absolutely critical, see need for "AFMA"]
* shutter unit [perfect alignment absolutely critical, at all time values and for 100-300k actuations]
* Viewfinder prism [not cheap glass brick, decent alignment required]

Mirrorless
* sensor plane to be perfectly perpendicular to optical axis ...
that's all in terms of mechanical/physical alignment

which one would you rather manufacture?

 

[Talys]

which one would you rather manufacture?

Whatever people want to buy.

 

[AvTvM]

yep. That's why I would love to see 2 versions of a same-sensor, same IQ, same performance, same price camera: 1 as mirrorslapper, 1 as mirrorless ... first one big, clunky, heavy, noisy ... second one compact, nimble, silent.

Both with a set of 3 matching zooms, same focal length range: 16-35/4, 24-70/4, 50-150/4

 

[Etienne]

I broke down and bought an M50. I really needed a smaller solution than my 1DX2 for certain situations. My new job involves producing videos for social media (by myself with no assistant) so I really needed a flippy screen. I really wanted an a7III but since it didn't have a flippy screen I decided against it. GH5 fit the bill but the video AF sucks

Certainly will be watching what happens in the FF department and will most likely pick one up when they are released.

Every review of Canon's DPAF, including the M50, reports that AF in video is excellent. I have three Canon bodies with DPAF - the T7i, 77D, and M6 - and AF works flawlessly in all of them. The video quality is hohum, but AF is spot on.
Maybe you are doing something wrong.

I believe kaptainkatsu said the Panasonic GH5 video sucks, not the M50. M50 is still preorder (not shipping yet) isn't it?

An M5 with a fully articulating screen would be kind of cool, with Eye autofocus too, that hopefully that also works in continuous AF.

Right you are. My mistake

 

[criscokkat]

I broke down and bought an M50. I really needed a smaller solution than my 1DX2 for certain situations. My new job involves producing videos for social media (by myself with no assistant) so I really needed a flippy screen. I really wanted an a7III but since it didn't have a flippy screen I decided against it. GH5 fit the bill but the video AF sucks

Certainly will be watching what happens in the FF department and will most likely pick one up when they are released.

Every review of Canon's DPAF, including the M50, reports that AF in video is excellent. I have three Canon bodies with DPAF - the T7i, 77D, and M6 - and AF works flawlessly in all of them. The video quality is hohum, but AF is spot on.
Maybe you are doing something wrong.

I believe kaptainkatsu said the Panasonic GH5 video sucks, not the M50. M50 is still preorder (not shipping yet) isn't it?

An M5 with a fully articulating screen would be kind of cool, with Eye autofocus too, that hopefully that also works in continuous AF.

It's hit the streets. I popped into Best Buy last weekend to get something and saw the display with it.

I went over and played with it as much as you can without a card in it...

 

[Talys]

I broke down and bought an M50. I really needed a smaller solution than my 1DX2 for certain situations. My new job involves producing videos for social media (by myself with no assistant) so I really needed a flippy screen. I really wanted an a7III but since it didn't have a flippy screen I decided against it. GH5 fit the bill but the video AF sucks

Certainly will be watching what happens in the FF department and will most likely pick one up when they are released.

Every review of Canon's DPAF, including the M50, reports that AF in video is excellent. I have three Canon bodies with DPAF - the T7i, 77D, and M6 - and AF works flawlessly in all of them. The video quality is hohum, but AF is spot on.
Maybe you are doing something wrong.

I believe kaptainkatsu said the Panasonic GH5 video sucks, not the M50. M50 is still preorder (not shipping yet) isn't it?

An M5 with a fully articulating screen would be kind of cool, with Eye autofocus too, that hopefully that also works in continuous AF.

It's hit the streets. I popped into Best Buy last weekend to get something and saw the display with it.

I went over and played with it as much as you can without a card in it...

Sweet! I will have to head to the camera shop to try it out. >> rubs hands together <<

 

[Chris Jankowski]

So why are Sony cameras not significantly lower cost than Canon cameras?

Because Sony has no competition at the moment. No other vendor offers FF mirrorless. They also have reasonably good and quickly improving assortment of native FF lenses - the FE lenses. They also made the details of the interface to their lenses available to third party lens manufacturers. Sigma native FE lenses have just started coming.

However, Sony knows that the competition is coming. They even pre-empted the future competition by pricing the new Alpha 7 III relatively low <$2,000. This camera on specs beats the comparable Canon offering 6D II in every department and by wide margins.

But Sony, set up another pricing trap for the users - the high price of their new lenses. The premium GM line of FE lenses are typically more expensive (often 50% more) than comparable Canon EF L offerings. Then there are rather few lower priced Sony FE lenses. I calculated that changeover to Sony would for me be prohibitively expensive due to the costs of the lenses.

By pricing the Alpha 7 III low Sony will make life for Canon difficult. Canon will have to price their mid-range FF mirrorless low or suffer poor market acceptance. Moreover, to make things more difficult for Canon, I believe that chances are that the first Canon offering will not even be close on-spec to Sony, as Canon has a huge software development gap to close. Mirrorless cameras require a lot of new software to be developed. It is enough to compare the differences between e.g. Sony A7 and A7 III features to gauge the scale of the software development effort required. It also takes time. No matter how much resources one can throw at it, it takes approximately two years to get from one generation of a mirrorless camera to another. Sony is now about 6 years and 3 generations ahead of their competitors.

For these reasons, I personally believe that Canon will not have a competitive general purpose FF mirrorless camera before 2024. This does not mean that their first offering may not be useful for some people. For example an FF mirrorless, delivering 16 frames per seconds without freezing the EVF and with continuous AF with object tracking over the whole sensor will be a godsend to sports photographers.

 

[Jack Douglas]

"For these reasons, I personally believe that Canon will not have a competitive general purpose FF mirrorless camera before 2024." I love predictions. Hope I'm around in 2024 to evaluate.

Jack