Canon EOS 5DS Replacements Coming Next Year [CR2]

unfocused

EOS-1D X Mark III
Jul 20, 2010
5,846
2,988
67
Springfield, IL
www.mgordoncommunications.com
Maiaibing said:
unfocused said:
You can't really believe the 's' series would ever come close to matching the standard 5D?

You said a tiny fraction... its certainly not.

Stats on uploaded pic's to the internet point to a current 4:1 ratio for the 5DIV. And I suspect that average posting rate on top is a little lower for the 5DS/R than the 5DIV - even if we can probably discount this in a big numbers game.

I'm not going to quibble over "tiny fraction" vs. "fraction," so I've amended my comment. It doesn't negate my point that a body style change for a model that sells less than another model is going to take longer to recoup.
 

melgross

EOS RP
Nov 2, 2016
704
461
Please, let’s not talk about this 120MP sensor for a DSLR.

It’s quite clear that this isn’t intended for such use for a general purpose camera. Most DSLRs, as well as mirrorless models, have 14 bit sensors. This has a 10 bit sensor. As such, it’s more aimed at video, considering the rolling shutter.

What a replacement 5Ds needs is a sensor that’s a bit higher in Rez, to keep ahead of the Nikon/Sony models we’ll see in the next couple of years, say 60MP, and a significantly better noise ratio and dynamic range, areas in which Canon is still behind. We don’t know if this sensor contains the amplifier on chip, as do the Nikon/Sony sensors, and the newest Canon devices, or not.

No matter what, full frame cameras will never equal the dynamic range of even the sub medium format sensors used the in Hasselblad and Fuji models that are 44 x 33mm, at higher resolutions. So that’s where we need concentration, not pie in the sky resolution.
 

Maiaibing

EOS R
Mar 7, 2014
1,054
2
Kabul
www.flickr.com
melgross said:
No matter what, full frame cameras will never equal the dynamic range of even the sub medium format sensors used the in Hasselblad and Fuji models that are 44 x 33mm, at higher resolutions. So that’s where we need concentration, not pie in the sky resolution.

The 5DIV with 1 stop better DR below iso 400 than the 5DS/R is already available for those who think that matters to their photography. Not that bad compared to the competition either. Those who desperately want more at low iso have likely left Canon by now, since Canon has been lagging behind with DR for years.

The rest of us would like to have a real MPIX increase - thank you. 5DS/R actually has excellent DR and high iso on par with the 5DIV plus super colors and quite good fps. I'll happily have incremental improvements on all those - but its the MPIX that makes the 5DS/R an outstanding - even unrivalled - DSLR. It should be the same for its successor.
 

cpsico

EOS RP
Mar 27, 2011
371
25
neuroanatomist said:
Nice. I'll likely get one for travel/architecture, although I'd prefer a 1-series form factor with that sensor – the 1D Xs (or is that excessive?)
+1
 

tron

EOS R5
CR Pro
Nov 8, 2011
4,829
1,121
5DsR needs a memory buffer boost and maybe 1 to 2 fps more. Add the new sensor (5D4-like) capabilities, touch screen, GPS and Dual pixel (if possible due to already smaller pixels) and you have a winner for a long time.
 

jeffa4444

EOS 5D Mark IV
Feb 28, 2013
1,516
174
67
Here is my wish list based on the excellent 5DS for improvements.

1. Faster flash sync speed
2. Illuminated focus points after focus lock
3. Dual Pixel
4. Touch screen
5. Better low light / dynamic range performance
6. Faster write speed to cards

Some would argue for more MP but I think 50MP is fine
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,617
1,642
Both 5DS models apparently have no trouble holding price. $3499/$3699 in the US some three years after first shipments -- that's spectacular price retention. I'm hard pressed to think of another > $1k Canon body that's still at 90%+ asking price three years later.

Questions:

1) Could we infer that high resolution retains value better than other features?

2) Don't throw anything at me, but is this sort of price strength over time ever a tell that Canon doesn't really need to update that model right now? I fully recognize all the tech that isn't in the 5DS models today, and wouldn't we all find a supercamera with increase throughput a la the D850 / A7R3 something to marvel at -- but perhaps Canon doesn't need to replace the 5DS models and could just keep printing money by extending the lifecycle another year like they did with the 7D1. (<-- I realize that's a wildly different camera and Nikon left that segment dormant for a cycle, but the question is clear: If you can maintain price without offering a new model, why rush the new model forward?)

- A
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
CR Pro
Feb 16, 2017
2,075
356
Vancouver, BC
ahsanford said:
Both 5DS models apparently have no trouble holding price. $3499/$3699 in the US some three years after first shipments -- that's spectacular price retention. I'm hard pressed to think of another > $1k Canon body that's still at 90%+ asking price three years later.

Questions:

1) Could we infer that high resolution retains value better than other features?

2) Don't throw anything at me, but is this sort of price strength over time ever a tell that Canon doesn't really need to update that model right now? I fully recognize all the tech that isn't in the 5DS models today, and wouldn't we all find a supercamera with increase throughput a la the D850 / A7R3 something to marvel at -- but perhaps Canon doesn't need to replace the 5DS models and could just keep printing money by extending the lifecycle another year like they did with the 7D1. (<-- I realize that's a wildly different camera and Nikon left that segment dormant for a cycle, but the question is clear: If you can maintain price without offering a new model, why rush the new model forward?)

- A

I'm actually AMAZED at how the 5DSR has retained its price.

The things I want from a new model, that might entice me to buy one are:

1. I want the camera to feel generally, more responsive than the current 5DSR.

2. A better (read: not JPEG...) crop mode.

3. 6D2 touchscreen niceties, and 6D2 flip screen.

I'm sure it will have dual pixel and that kind of thing, and some minor sensor improvements are welcome, but I'm ambivalent about significantly > 50 megapixels.
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,617
1,642
ahsanford said:
Questions:

1) Could we infer that high resolution retains value better than other features?

Just following up on this bit:

Nikon D850 = still at original asking price one year later.

Sony A7R III = Just got price reduced for the first time -- also about a year old. That might be a victim of some cannibalization, though. The A7 III is a bit of a beast for the dollar, and it's possible folks don't feel the added cost of the A7R III is as strong of a value in comparison.

Sony A99-II (the forgotten supercamera these days) = Still at original asking price some 1.5 years later.

I am leaving the RX1R II out of this as I feel that's being deliberately marketed to a different crowd, almost like the Nikon Df was. It's a showpiece that lives/dies on being something painful to attain. I don't think Sony will discount that thing one bit, but I think that's more about it's perceived luxury status than any resolution-fueled staying power.

I know we only have a limited set of products to judge this on, but it would appear that regardless of whether we think we need 40-50 MP, the market still seems quite comfortable paying top dollar for it.

- A
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
CR Pro
Feb 16, 2017
2,075
356
Vancouver, BC
ahsanford said:
Sony A7R III = Just got price reduced for the first time -- also about a year old. That might be a victim of some cannibalization, though. The A7 III is a bit of a beast for the dollar, and it's possible folks don't feel the added cost of the A7R III is as strong of a value in comparison.

The A7R3 was effectively price reduced a not too long after launch, as Sony offered $300 instant trade-in rebate of any interchangeable camera body or lens. You could bring in a broken FD lens and claim on the $300 (at the same time, there was a $500 trade in for the A9).

On the other hand, Sony has no good body+lens deals.
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,617
1,642
Talys said:
The A7R3 was effectively price reduced a not too long after launch, as Sony offered $300 instant trade-in rebate of any interchangeable camera body or lens. You could bring in a broken FD lens and claim on the $300 (at the same time, there was a $500 trade in for the A9).

That's not a price drop so much as a promotion, right?

The first price drop just happened, I believe.

https://www.cpricewatch.com/product/06423/Sony-Alpha-a7R-III-price.html

- A
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
CR Pro
Feb 16, 2017
2,075
356
Vancouver, BC
ahsanford said:
Talys said:
The A7R3 was effectively price reduced a not too long after launch, as Sony offered $300 instant trade-in rebate of any interchangeable camera body or lens. You could bring in a broken FD lens and claim on the $300 (at the same time, there was a $500 trade in for the A9).

That's not a price drop so much as a promotion, right?

The first price drop just happened, I believe.

https://www.cpricewatch.com/product/06423/Sony-Alpha-a7R-III-price.html

- A

Oh, you mean *permanent* price drop. I see.

Yeah, when, I meant, a reduced price / sale of some kind during a limited window. 10% is a pretty big discount right after launch.
 

applecider

EOS RP
May 20, 2012
488
43
Portland Oregon, Cape Cod
Given premise that the more MP the worse the high iso performance...

And given that canon seems to like new cameras to increase MP without a decrease in high iOS performance....

The question is how many more pixels can continue to support a max standard iso 6400 even with on chip processing. I’m guessing that that number is somewhere near 60 MP.

So that is my prediction for the 5DSR ii, 60MP same iso range.

Second hope is if there could be an in camera down sampling, or pooling of adjacent pixels to provide a higher iso option, and if this would degrade image quality. If not maybe a 120MP camera with 4:1 high iso crop mode where each 4 pixel cluster is added and averaged to effectively downsample to 30MP (each four pixel group averages into one so 120/4 yields 30MP) . At 120MP iso max might be 3200, but downsampled could be 25600. I don’t know how the math works and if Potential gains are linear or or proportional to number of pixels pooled to down sample.

Does anyone know if any camera system currently does this and if so how much gain in high iso is achieved. I would hope that noise could be cut to 1/4th with a 4:1 down sampling.

The other problem with this approach is that each image would require a significant amount of processing before getting to memory card.
 

dak723

EOS R
Oct 26, 2013
1,141
435
ahsanford said:
ahsanford said:
Questions:

1) Could we infer that high resolution retains value better than other features?

Just following up on this bit:

Nikon D850 = still at original asking price one year later.

Sony A7R III = Just got price reduced for the first time -- also about a year old. That might be a victim of some cannibalization, though. The A7 III is a bit of a beast for the dollar, and it's possible folks don't feel the added cost of the A7R III is as strong of a value in comparison.

Sony A99-II (the forgotten supercamera these days) = Still at original asking price some 1.5 years later.

I am leaving the RX1R II out of this as I feel that's being deliberately marketed to a different crowd, almost like the Nikon Df was. It's a showpiece that lives/dies on being something painful to attain. I don't think Sony will discount that thing one bit, but I think that's more about it's perceived luxury status than any resolution-fueled staying power.

I know we only have a limited set of products to judge this on, but it would appear that regardless of whether we think we need 40-50 MP, the market still seems quite comfortable paying top dollar for it.

- A

Because there's a sucker born every minute! 8) ;D :-[
 

AlanF

Stay at home
CR Pro
Aug 16, 2012
7,754
8,489
Talys said:
ahsanford said:
Both 5DS models apparently have no trouble holding price. $3499/$3699 in the US some three years after first shipments -- that's spectacular price retention. I'm hard pressed to think of another > $1k Canon body that's still at 90%+ asking price three years later.

Questions:

1) Could we infer that high resolution retains value better than other features?

2) Don't throw anything at me, but is this sort of price strength over time ever a tell that Canon doesn't really need to update that model right now? I fully recognize all the tech that isn't in the 5DS models today, and wouldn't we all find a supercamera with increase throughput a la the D850 / A7R3 something to marvel at -- but perhaps Canon doesn't need to replace the 5DS models and could just keep printing money by extending the lifecycle another year like they did with the 7D1. (<-- I realize that's a wildly different camera and Nikon left that segment dormant for a cycle, but the question is clear: If you can maintain price without offering a new model, why rush the new model forward?)

- A

I'm actually AMAZED at how the 5DSR has retained its price.

The things I want from a new model, that might entice me to buy one are:

1. I want the camera to feel generally, more responsive than the current 5DSR.

2. A better (read: not JPEG...) crop mode.

3. 6D2 touchscreen niceties, and 6D2 flip screen.

I'm sure it will have dual pixel and that kind of thing, and some minor sensor improvements are welcome, but I'm ambivalent about significantly > 50 megapixels.

We both share a passion for bird photography. Unless I am going for an action photography session, my go-to body for a birding day is my 5DSR and not my 5DIV. Its high resolution sensor combined with the absence of an AA-filter gives an effective 600mm "reach" with the 100-400mm II relative to using it on your 6DII. Further, the noise issue is not real. I have posted in CR bird images taken at iso 6400 pushed 1 to 2 stops, processed with DxO PRIME (taken by wife as she uses it and I the 5DIV when we go out together).

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=35153.msg723607#msg723607
 

zim

EOS 5D Mark IV
CR Pro
Oct 18, 2011
2,123
315
AlanF said:
Talys said:
ahsanford said:
Both 5DS models apparently have no trouble holding price. $3499/$3699 in the US some three years after first shipments -- that's spectacular price retention. I'm hard pressed to think of another > $1k Canon body that's still at 90%+ asking price three years later.

Questions:

1) Could we infer that high resolution retains value better than other features?

2) Don't throw anything at me, but is this sort of price strength over time ever a tell that Canon doesn't really need to update that model right now? I fully recognize all the tech that isn't in the 5DS models today, and wouldn't we all find a supercamera with increase throughput a la the D850 / A7R3 something to marvel at -- but perhaps Canon doesn't need to replace the 5DS models and could just keep printing money by extending the lifecycle another year like they did with the 7D1. (<-- I realize that's a wildly different camera and Nikon left that segment dormant for a cycle, but the question is clear: If you can maintain price without offering a new model, why rush the new model forward?)

- A

I'm actually AMAZED at how the 5DSR has retained its price.

The things I want from a new model, that might entice me to buy one are:

1. I want the camera to feel generally, more responsive than the current 5DSR.

2. A better (read: not JPEG...) crop mode.

3. 6D2 touchscreen niceties, and 6D2 flip screen.

I'm sure it will have dual pixel and that kind of thing, and some minor sensor improvements are welcome, but I'm ambivalent about significantly > 50 megapixels.

We both share a passion for bird photography. Unless I am going for an action photography session, my go-to body for a birding day is my 5DSR and not my 5DIV. Its high resolution sensor combined with the absence of an AA-filter gives an effective 600mm "reach" with the 100-400mm II relative to using it on your 6DII. Further, the noise issue is not real. I have posted in CR bird images taken at iso 6400 pushed 1 to 2 stops, processed with DxO PRIME (taken by wife as she uses it and I the 5DIV when we go out together).

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=35153.msg723607#msg723607

I'm really curious about this and your images make your point well , do you feel this also holds up for BIF?
 

unfocused

EOS-1D X Mark III
Jul 20, 2010
5,846
2,988
67
Springfield, IL
www.mgordoncommunications.com
ahsanford said:
...but the question is clear: If you can maintain price without offering a new model, why rush the new model forward?)...

Because the 5Ds series used a 5DIII body to save manufacturing costs and the 5DIII has been supplanted by the 5DIV. I don't know what the differences are for manufacturing purposes but Canon may not want to keep the 5DIII/5Ds line running just for the 5Ds.

Your point is valid, but there may be other cost-saving reasons to update the 5Ds.
 

Talys

Canon 6DII
CR Pro
Feb 16, 2017
2,075
356
Vancouver, BC
zim said:
AlanF said:
Talys said:
ahsanford said:
Both 5DS models apparently have no trouble holding price. $3499/$3699 in the US some three years after first shipments -- that's spectacular price retention. I'm hard pressed to think of another > $1k Canon body that's still at 90%+ asking price three years later.

Questions:

1) Could we infer that high resolution retains value better than other features?

2) Don't throw anything at me, but is this sort of price strength over time ever a tell that Canon doesn't really need to update that model right now? I fully recognize all the tech that isn't in the 5DS models today, and wouldn't we all find a supercamera with increase throughput a la the D850 / A7R3 something to marvel at -- but perhaps Canon doesn't need to replace the 5DS models and could just keep printing money by extending the lifecycle another year like they did with the 7D1. (<-- I realize that's a wildly different camera and Nikon left that segment dormant for a cycle, but the question is clear: If you can maintain price without offering a new model, why rush the new model forward?)

- A

I'm actually AMAZED at how the 5DSR has retained its price.

The things I want from a new model, that might entice me to buy one are:

1. I want the camera to feel generally, more responsive than the current 5DSR.

2. A better (read: not JPEG...) crop mode.

3. 6D2 touchscreen niceties, and 6D2 flip screen.

I'm sure it will have dual pixel and that kind of thing, and some minor sensor improvements are welcome, but I'm ambivalent about significantly > 50 megapixels.

We both share a passion for bird photography. Unless I am going for an action photography session, my go-to body for a birding day is my 5DSR and not my 5DIV. Its high resolution sensor combined with the absence of an AA-filter gives an effective 600mm "reach" with the 100-400mm II relative to using it on your 6DII. Further, the noise issue is not real. I have posted in CR bird images taken at iso 6400 pushed 1 to 2 stops, processed with DxO PRIME (taken by wife as she uses it and I the 5DIV when we go out together).

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=35153.msg723607#msg723607

I'm really curious about this and your images make your point well , do you feel this also holds up for BIF?

Alan's 5DSR BIF photos are excellent :) He's posted lots of great shots in BIF threads with a variety of lenses.

@Alan - I agree that for our birding hobby, the 5DSR is superior camera than a 6D2, hands-down. On top of the resolution, it has better AF, too. I'd have bought one when it came out, except that I also use my cameras for work, where I have to do some product photography, often from ladder-height, and without a fully articulating screen (with mirror mode) this work becomes much harder.

It is the main reason that I stuck with Rebels and xxD's all the way until 6D2. I've tried a field monitor, but this did not work well, because without the mirror mode, things move in the opposite direction in the image as they do in the arrangement.
 

AlanF

Stay at home
CR Pro
Aug 16, 2012
7,754
8,489
Phil - thanks for your kind comments! The AF of the 5DSR is indeed excellent as well. Once you have got used to the clarity of images from the 5DSR, it is difficult to get back to other bodies. I wish that Canon would put a cropped 5DSR sensor into a new APS-C body.
 

dtaylor

Canon 5Ds
Jul 26, 2011
1,682
1,239
applecider said:
Given premise that the more MP the worse the high iso performance...

This is a false premise except, possibly, for very long astro photos.

5Ds isn't good at high ISO became a meme in early reviews thanks to pixel peeping and Canon capping the max ISO at 12,800. In reality it's as good as any other FF when viewed at the same physical size, i.e. the same print size. A few sites figured this out and reported accurately on the 5Ds high ISO capabilities. One big one being Imaging Resource in their print quality section.

Even today, 3 years later, it's maybe 2/3rds to 1 stop behind the newest FF bodies at high ISO. (5D4, D850, A7 third generation.) Canon really should have set the max ISO at 25,600.

High ISO concerns held me back on buying a 5Ds until I played with some RAW files and realized I wasn't giving anything up. In fact, I would rather work with high megapixel high ISO RAW files because I don't need to sharpen at all (sharpening emphasizes noise) and I can trade off some MP for NR.

Second hope is if there could be an in camera down sampling, or pooling of adjacent pixels to provide a higher iso option, and if this would degrade image quality.

If Canon included an algorithm that could intelligently trade off MP for significant NR it would be icing on the cake.
 
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