Canon EOS M5 Coming Before Photokina [CR3]
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Loswr
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AvTvM said:
Fair enough. My apologies.
AvTvM said:
Well, based on your repeated characterization of them, I suspect you'd say there's no wisdom in it. Yet...they have not done as you suggest, so presumably they see wisdom in it. Given that they are in a vastly superior position to you when it comes to evaluating their resources and what the development of new camera lines entails, and given that they have far more market data than you, it is clear they are in a far better position to make those decisions.
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Hector1970 said:
Nobody sensible would claim that, and nobody here has that I've seen.
Hector1970 said:
Citation needed. The fact is, mirrorless has been touted as a threat to DSLRs for years, and so far they're still a niche. Most people seem to agree that mirrorless technology will become the norm - eventually. But that's just a matter of one type of camera being replaced by another. It doesn't threaten Canon - they already produce moderately successful mirrorless cameras, and will make more when they see the market going that way.
Hector1970 said:
I suspect some successful mirrorless cameras in the future will look more or less exactly like DSLRs. That's simply because of ergonomics, especially with larger lenses.
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I always find it amusing how some that probably still live in their mom's basement know more about the overall industry than a company that has staff and resources that does nothing else.
As far as canon being a sales flop in mirrorless. What?
Thom estimates and my estimates are around the same that canon right now is sitting #2-3 in mirrorless globally.
Now anytime some company can invest nearly nothing and capture a significant portion of the market. That dude gets a raise. That's a success no matter what bias you have against the product.
Think about it.. with four cameras total, six lenses... They overtook Olympus, the crown jewel of m43.
None of us may like canons strategy, I don't, but you have to be a madman to state or think what they are doing isn't brilliant and working.
As far as this forum knowing? That's embarrassing. We are enthusiasts and greedy bastards. We want them to make what we will buy, not what canon long term is positioning.
Canon works on a long term 5-10 year plan. No one has any idea what canon is thinking short or long term..
As far as canon being a sales flop in mirrorless. What?
Thom estimates and my estimates are around the same that canon right now is sitting #2-3 in mirrorless globally.
Now anytime some company can invest nearly nothing and capture a significant portion of the market. That dude gets a raise. That's a success no matter what bias you have against the product.
Think about it.. with four cameras total, six lenses... They overtook Olympus, the crown jewel of m43.
None of us may like canons strategy, I don't, but you have to be a madman to state or think what they are doing isn't brilliant and working.
As far as this forum knowing? That's embarrassing. We are enthusiasts and greedy bastards. We want them to make what we will buy, not what canon long term is positioning.
Canon works on a long term 5-10 year plan. No one has any idea what canon is thinking short or long term..
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rrcphoto said:
Yes, think about it. With the same limited assortment of EOS M lenses, if Canon had (addition ally to M/2/10) released a great EOS "M3 Pro" a little before Sony launched its A6000 and then a kick-ass EOS M5 "Pro" just a little before Sony launched the A6300 ... they could now easily be number #1 in non-FF sensored mirrorless camera market, rather than #3 bottom-dweller, selling sub-par bodies with 1 kit lens only to a target group of happy-snapper japanese girls.
And if know-it-all-best Canon had not made the terrible mistake to price their first EOS M at a whopping 899 rather than 499 [a bit lower than cheapest rebel, as there is no viewfinder) , they would have gone to #1 in mirrorless sales in Europe and USA in the 2nd year after launch. Canon knows ... bruhahaha! Greedy basterds, got fires-sale burnt. lol.
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Hi all,
I'm new to the forums, however follow the site quite regularly to keep an eye out for an upgrade of my current mirror less (EOS M). I've definitely been tempted by some of the competition (Sony Ax, Fuji X-T2), however am uncertain if I want to switch to their ecosystems and "philosophies" on camera functionality (not to mention their horrid menu structures!)
When it comes to the M on these forums, there's a lot of parallels to the community on the BlackBerry forums -- clearly there are huge Canon-fans who disagree with what the company is doing. However, often as fans we tend to zero in on one aspect of the business and fail to see the overarching strategy. With BlackBerry, much to the chagrin of BB fans, it was the inevitable deprioritization of hardware and shift to software. I love the tactile feedback of physical keyboard and thousands of QWERTYphiles will agree with me, but it just isn't a smart move for BBRY to invest in such a niche.
Canon, however, is in a much better position: they have active hardware lines that are proftable. I don't know if that will always be the case -- they've actively started selling their global shutter sensors to whoever needs them -- which is an interesting move in and of itself.
Both Nikon and Canon have been basically spectators in the mirrorless arena, which is frustrating to us as consumers, but not entirely foolish. Samsung shut down their very well-received mirrorless operations a little while back and Sony's aggressive push and investment into a new immature market is something they've done time and time again (and years later they end up closing that entire division entirely), so it can't be used to determine the profitability of a market.
My whole point is, there is no rush for Canon/Nikon. "Time" works in a very different way for corporations than us mere mortals. Sony can play Tesla all it wants and grow the market, but invariably when the jackpot becomes sweet enough for Canon and Nikon to make a move, they'll be upping their game and making a real play for 1st.
I'm new to the forums, however follow the site quite regularly to keep an eye out for an upgrade of my current mirror less (EOS M). I've definitely been tempted by some of the competition (Sony Ax, Fuji X-T2), however am uncertain if I want to switch to their ecosystems and "philosophies" on camera functionality (not to mention their horrid menu structures!)
When it comes to the M on these forums, there's a lot of parallels to the community on the BlackBerry forums -- clearly there are huge Canon-fans who disagree with what the company is doing. However, often as fans we tend to zero in on one aspect of the business and fail to see the overarching strategy. With BlackBerry, much to the chagrin of BB fans, it was the inevitable deprioritization of hardware and shift to software. I love the tactile feedback of physical keyboard and thousands of QWERTYphiles will agree with me, but it just isn't a smart move for BBRY to invest in such a niche.
Canon, however, is in a much better position: they have active hardware lines that are proftable. I don't know if that will always be the case -- they've actively started selling their global shutter sensors to whoever needs them -- which is an interesting move in and of itself.
Both Nikon and Canon have been basically spectators in the mirrorless arena, which is frustrating to us as consumers, but not entirely foolish. Samsung shut down their very well-received mirrorless operations a little while back and Sony's aggressive push and investment into a new immature market is something they've done time and time again (and years later they end up closing that entire division entirely), so it can't be used to determine the profitability of a market.
My whole point is, there is no rush for Canon/Nikon. "Time" works in a very different way for corporations than us mere mortals. Sony can play Tesla all it wants and grow the market, but invariably when the jackpot becomes sweet enough for Canon and Nikon to make a move, they'll be upping their game and making a real play for 1st.
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i would be very interested in a eos m5, and if canon would have dpaf and a evf i would go for it
but with out the 70s ergonomics plz!
but with out the 70s ergonomics plz!
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L
Loswr
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AvTvM said:
What was the production and distribution cost for the EOS M? It seems unlikely that they sold it for a loss, so the fire sale pricing just meant less profit. Which means units sold at the launch price and the initial discount price had a whopping profit margin.
As usual in your debates, Canon has the last laugh...all the way to the bank. Bwaahaahaa!
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btw, if innovative Canon 8) puts one of these global shutter sensors http://global.canon/en/news/2016/20160831.html
into an all-round kick-ass EOS M5 without mechanical shutter, I will buy one.
But unfortunately, they want to put the cool stuff into cars, drons and robots .. but not into great mechanics-free, solid-state digital cameras:
http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Canon-wants-its-image-sensors-in-others-cars-robots
Absolutely NOT stupid, Canon! But not so good for camera customers.
into an all-round kick-ass EOS M5 without mechanical shutter, I will buy one.
But unfortunately, they want to put the cool stuff into cars, drons and robots .. but not into great mechanics-free, solid-state digital cameras:
http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Companies/Canon-wants-its-image-sensors-in-others-cars-robots
Absolutely NOT stupid, Canon! But not so good for camera customers.
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Orangutan said:
not necessarily the one with highest sales volume. But the company that stands head and shoulders over its industry, leads innovation, drives vision, powers ahead, steams in front, offers the best products, service, and customer experience. You know, what companies like Daimler-Benz, IBM, HP, Miele, 3M, Coca-Cola, Leica etc. ONCE were ... back in their day ... when such qualities could still be found ... today ... pffft ... lots of hot air and Chinamade everywhere.
To me, Canon was industry leader in digital (stills) imaging gear when their cameras and CMOS sensors ruled supreme. About 2000 to 2010 or so, give or take a year ...
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So what do we actually want? what would it take to please everybody?
-Do a fullreadout of it to 4K, to an effcient compreased codec, in a small body, no fans, without overheating
-Or have a Global shutter sensor with magically acceptable lowlight performance?
-Or have all the features of a higher end product (FF, 30mp, DPAF, 4k) yet at rebel/eos m price
-Or have tons of lenses designed, made and released before the Company even still are sure of the entire line.
All of these would be cool. I'd take the EOS M5 with the 80D sensor DR doing 4K 60p + CLOG with DPAF and high end EVF, large battery, high burst rate with a CFAST + UHSII SD slot, Plus a parallel anouncement for M lenses:
-22mm f/2 IS
-35mm f/2 IS
-50mm f/2 IS
-85mm f/2.8 IS
-18-150mm IS at a tiny size.
-A Canon EF to EF-M Focal reducer.
It's not gonna happen. Because of technicalities, some of which are actually impossible to make for Canon (ful readout 4k, 60p at mirrorless size - it fries the 1DXII and the A6300, or large battery/low consumption at mirrorless size). And some of which are marketing based. There's a rule you need to be aware of when expecting future releases. They will not releaae a better camera than a newly announced one at a lower price. Better at a higher price? Sure. 1DXII is almost the perfect photo/video camera of the planet, because they aren't limited to cutting a higher end product (well, except for the 1DC, so removed C'Log, Look, even the highest end 1DXII gets some of it)
So what do we expect?
The current M3 is a Rebel in a mirrorless body.
A more pro version would most definitely be an 80D in a mirrorless body. But not a single step above the 80D.
It will have the 80D featute set without the battery and OVF and durability, but you get in return a smaller camera and an EVF if you prefer it plus peaking and theae two are very cool for videographers when paired together)
-A new body design that's BOLD. See what Canon is doing to the lower line. They'rr going for BOLD VINTAGE LINES.
-EVF.
-300-400 shots battery vs 1000ish with an 80D (real world not cipa)
-Same 80D sensor,
-Same DPAF
-Same 1080p 60p
-Same Touchacreen
-Same two wheel dials
-Same one SD card slot
A solid entry for Canon in the Mirrorless market for photographers. It's A6300 level but a Canon, so great. The M5 wi
l be a hit. But in the videography world (aside from V-loggera) it will be slaughtered on announcement. Which Canon knows and is not making this camera for those people anyway! (hard to understand that the company could make something not for you, how could they!!)
For those still waiting for Canon to lead the low-end video market again, I am sorry. It's over.
They're trying/leading at only the 3000+ arena. And they take comfort that anything Canon has made since the 550D will allow you to make a groundbreaking film if you have the talent for it.
No the M5 will not be the revival of Canon video because it has an EVF and peaking. It will have no more the 1080p, no more than 60p, normal quality video that's a little soft with hints of aliasing. Again, just like the 80D. It will not be the revival of Canon lowend video many are waiting for, but it will be a camera that can produce some awesome video/film nonetheless, in the right hands. The 80D is making a very high success in video and the m5 will top it off with an EVF and peaking. So fine really.
-Do a fullreadout of it to 4K, to an effcient compreased codec, in a small body, no fans, without overheating
-Or have a Global shutter sensor with magically acceptable lowlight performance?
-Or have all the features of a higher end product (FF, 30mp, DPAF, 4k) yet at rebel/eos m price
-Or have tons of lenses designed, made and released before the Company even still are sure of the entire line.
All of these would be cool. I'd take the EOS M5 with the 80D sensor DR doing 4K 60p + CLOG with DPAF and high end EVF, large battery, high burst rate with a CFAST + UHSII SD slot, Plus a parallel anouncement for M lenses:
-22mm f/2 IS
-35mm f/2 IS
-50mm f/2 IS
-85mm f/2.8 IS
-18-150mm IS at a tiny size.
-A Canon EF to EF-M Focal reducer.
It's not gonna happen. Because of technicalities, some of which are actually impossible to make for Canon (ful readout 4k, 60p at mirrorless size - it fries the 1DXII and the A6300, or large battery/low consumption at mirrorless size). And some of which are marketing based. There's a rule you need to be aware of when expecting future releases. They will not releaae a better camera than a newly announced one at a lower price. Better at a higher price? Sure. 1DXII is almost the perfect photo/video camera of the planet, because they aren't limited to cutting a higher end product (well, except for the 1DC, so removed C'Log, Look, even the highest end 1DXII gets some of it)
So what do we expect?
The current M3 is a Rebel in a mirrorless body.
A more pro version would most definitely be an 80D in a mirrorless body. But not a single step above the 80D.
It will have the 80D featute set without the battery and OVF and durability, but you get in return a smaller camera and an EVF if you prefer it plus peaking and theae two are very cool for videographers when paired together)
-A new body design that's BOLD. See what Canon is doing to the lower line. They'rr going for BOLD VINTAGE LINES.
-EVF.
-300-400 shots battery vs 1000ish with an 80D (real world not cipa)
-Same 80D sensor,
-Same DPAF
-Same 1080p 60p
-Same Touchacreen
-Same two wheel dials
-Same one SD card slot
A solid entry for Canon in the Mirrorless market for photographers. It's A6300 level but a Canon, so great. The M5 wi
l be a hit. But in the videography world (aside from V-loggera) it will be slaughtered on announcement. Which Canon knows and is not making this camera for those people anyway! (hard to understand that the company could make something not for you, how could they!!)
For those still waiting for Canon to lead the low-end video market again, I am sorry. It's over.
They're trying/leading at only the 3000+ arena. And they take comfort that anything Canon has made since the 550D will allow you to make a groundbreaking film if you have the talent for it.
No the M5 will not be the revival of Canon video because it has an EVF and peaking. It will have no more the 1080p, no more than 60p, normal quality video that's a little soft with hints of aliasing. Again, just like the 80D. It will not be the revival of Canon lowend video many are waiting for, but it will be a camera that can produce some awesome video/film nonetheless, in the right hands. The 80D is making a very high success in video and the m5 will top it off with an EVF and peaking. So fine really.
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Ebrahim Saadawi said:
since it would be canon's first vintage camera it would be bound to be a hit .. especially if they do it well on the lines of Fuji.
I think a TON would buy a canon M-AE1
the only above caveat would be that it would require a LP-E6N battery, and not the mirrorless LP-E17 battery pack.
what would be interesting to see if they could make a double battery pack ie: fit two LP-E17's in the grip housing,etc to expand the battery life up to 500+.
I for one hope we see an offsetted microlens, or mirrorless designed sensor and NOT the 80D sensor.
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Loswr
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AvTvM said:
#3 in Japan based on BCN for 2015. Possibly #2 globally based on Thom Hogan's estimate. That's with an extremely limited investment in R&D and production – they're clearly not trying hard in the MILC space. But that's very logical – why should they? The dSLR segment of the ILC market is the lion's share, and Canon dominates it. The M line appears to be part of Canon's strategy to be ready when – or if – mirrorless becomes the majority of the ILC market. If the current trend slopes continue, that should happen sometime after we're all dead (quite possibly, a disruptive imaging technology – which mirrorless isn't – will kill ILCs as a whole before that happens).
Also, let's be clear – I never said that Canon knows it all...just that they know a helluva lot about making and selling cameras than you.
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