Has Canon developed a new 21mp sensor for the Canon EOS R system? [CR1]

SwissFrank

from EOS 1N to R
Dec 9, 2018
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Canon could have put in a global shutter sensor into a stills camera years ago if they weren't concerned with dynamic range / quantum efficiency.

The paper you shared around last year had a novel solution for this, that they didn't have years ago. Maybe the paper you shared is actually true, and they do have a solution that gives you global shutter while maintaining (or increasing!) dynamic range.
 

SwissFrank

from EOS 1N to R
Dec 9, 2018
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At this point, the benefits of global shutter outweigh the stop* less of sensitivity and/or DR.
You make it sound like a trade-off, but the jist of this announcement is that they have a solution that give you not only global shutter, but also increased, not decreased, DR.
 

SwissFrank

from EOS 1N to R
Dec 9, 2018
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The low light ability is very interesting. My guess that the db expansion is more toward the low light side vs. high. Physics in glass is harder to solve, so improved low light allows smaller lenses, etc. It would be giggle city to pick up 2 or 3 stops of low light. all of a sudden that 400 f5.6 looks pretty darn handy. compared to the 400 2.8.

The Canon paper on a new type of sensor talked about 100% of the added DR being on the high side. Yes, it'd be earth-shatteringly great if it could be improved on the low side, but I don't think we've ever seen an improvement of more than, like, what, a stop a year max? and not every year either. So either you're getting what you want because this announcement is basically that Canon is increasing sensitivity more in one year than the entire industry has managed in a quarter century, or, a bit more boring, but that the extra 8-9 stops over the R5 is mostly or all on the high side.
 

canonnews

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Tasty developments Canon and Canon's coming very good now.

Not sure what's Canon plans are for this sensor, difficult to say with a shrinking camera market on how viable a new model will be.

They could put in a Compact EOS R (RC) (follow Sony A7c if Canon does this ?) or maybe possibly MK 2 of EOS RP ? (2022)
depends on what you mean be a "c" .. a Sony "c' .. no, but a 5c (which in canon's terms is a video camera) they may.

There's no credible rumor that this is coming out for the RF mount. CanonWatch .. "theorized" that it was, the rumor was just that they created this sensor.
 

canonnews

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Its based on a current (for sale) 2/3's, 5.5MP, 3.4um pixel, industrial high speed use (120fps), global shutter sensor. The pixel and sensor size suggest they could use this tech on MUCH higher consumer MP count applications.

I feel like this is more of a when than an if. Will it debut in the R1, or will it be pushed further down the road to the next high end body? The fact that Sony is going to be close behind, as these things tend to all get "found out" at the same time as accompanying tech becomes available to clear past hurdles tells me we'll see it sooner than later.
Sony's global shutter sensors are far more advanced than Canon's. The two aren't even on the same planet right now. Canon doesn't even have the facilities to mass-produce a stacked sensor such as what Sony is doing. While Canon has impressively caught up to stills performance, Sony's experience and R&D into stacked sensor design has given them a huge lead in this area. The impressive part is that Canon has had to work much harder to improve their sensors because their fabrication capability has fallen behind.

Canon's high DR sensors are all around video related applications. End stop. Every patent. Usually it's about automotive applications these days.
There's nothing out there that suggests these patents (or tech) will every be used for stills cameras.

Everyone's racing away with this, but no one stated this was going into an EOS R camera. No. One. CW guessed that maybe it may, but it was just a guess.
 
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SwissFrank

from EOS 1N to R
Dec 9, 2018
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Sony's global shutter sensors are far more advanced than Canon's. The two aren't even on the same planet right now. Canon doesn't even have the facilities to mass-produce a stacked sensor such as what Sony is doing.

You seem to argue 1) Canon can't make them and 2) Canon is making them only for the video cameras :-D I don't think both arguments will prove to be correct.

BTW I've worked in Japanese engineering since like 1992, and there are often cases where firms don't make the parts they design or even the goods they design. The microprocessor company ARM for instance subcontracts all of its manufacture out. iPhones famously are made by FoxConn in China. Unix workstations I worked on the operating system of shipped with three name tags from one production run. In a later job I was a purchasing agent for Toshiba, Hitachi, and Sony buying Motorola PAL's they needed for their own goods. Despite these firms making PAL's themselves, and being competitors with Motorola, they couldn't make the high-end PAL's so my team at Omron basically acted as a purchasing agent, hiding from Motorola the fact that the ultimate customer was their big competitors. I don't see any reason why it's utterly and totally out of the question Canon might do something similar.

If Canon lacks production capability for something they've published papers on and now are rumored to be manufactured, then either 1) they're building capability you don't know about, or 2) they're not making it themselves. Neither possibility would shatter my world.

Canon's high DR sensors are all around video related applications. End stop. Every patent. Usually it's about automotive applications these days.
There's nothing out there that suggests these patents (or tech) will every be used for stills cameras.

You seem to insist that the video and stills worlds have absolutely no overlap, and that's simply not true now if it ever was completely true in the past.

Cameras are clearly used for both, ranging from the iPhone up to the R5.

You're arguing basically that users of a camera that is stills capable, just absolutely, positively, under no circumstances whatsoever that could ever be imagined in the history of the universe, might want a global shutter or more DR or auto ND.

I'm not predicting all sensors from the two worlds will merge.

But as a stills shooter, I can see advantages in global shutter, and 20 stops dynamic range at times, and even if not suitable for all possibly imaginable subjects, and in-camera ND ability.

I'd totally buy that camera.

So, if this sensor does end up being used in a film camera, they'll make at least one sale. And it sounds like I won't be the only one.

Something else to consider is that it might simply be a special model, at least to gauge reaction. While it might be too expensive to engineer an entire camera around this sensor, it may make quite a bit of sense to make a special model of the R1 or what have you. Just as they used to make the EOS-1 and EOS-1RS (with pellicle mirror), or later the EOS-1D and EOS-1Ds, they might make two or even three versions of the R1. Again they might make a slow hi-res version and fast lo-res version, but also a slow hi-DR version. If the sensor's seeing use in cine cameras, then they basically have done the R&D for free. And if the body's seeing use in normal-sensor cameras, they've got the body for free. There will be some work making a model with this sensor, but perhaps little enough to either make a profit, or at least use it as a halo model.
 
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MiJax

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Sony's global shutter sensors are far more advanced than Canon's. The two aren't even on the same planet right now. Canon doesn't even have the facilities to mass-produce a stacked sensor such as what Sony is doing. While Canon has impressively caught up to stills performance, Sony's experience and R&D into stacked sensor design has given them a huge lead in this area. The impressive part is that Canon has had to work much harder to improve their sensors because their fabrication capability has fallen behind.

Canon's high DR sensors are all around video related applications. End stop. Every patent. Usually it's about automotive applications these days.
There's nothing out there that suggests these patents (or tech) will every be used for stills cameras.

Everyone's racing away with this, but no one stated this was going into an EOS R camera. No. One. CW guessed that maybe it may, but it was just a guess.

I think people put too much stock in the stacked sensor design. Canon proved there are other ways to skin that cat, even if they are not as efficient. As far as guessing Canon might bring a tech they've been selling for years, I don't think it was ever a big stretch to see this coming. I personally threw it on my wish list for the R1 months ago when the expected drop was 2022-23. Same as the uber mega pixel 5Ds style sensor and camera pending. Some of this stuff is very obvious when you look at the past development trends.
 
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SwissFrank

from EOS 1N to R
Dec 9, 2018
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I'm not going to comment on that post, and this is ridiculous when basic math is out of reach. two capacitors would take up 2/'s the area. so it's more than 1 ev not to mention the fact of that you have more switches and more wiring per pixel on a FSI, that all reduces effeciency and also the size of the pixel well.

You seem to think that capacitors are somehow a fixed size. They're not. Size probably varies fairly directly with charge-holding capacity. They can probably, very approximately, make two capacitors each with half the capacity of a big one, in about the size of the big one.

Granted these half-size capacitors would have half the total capacity, and lose one stop of top-end dynamic range.

But hello, the design makes up for that by letting you do the equivalent of a simultaneous HDR shot to gain ten more stops.

I just can't figure out why you're slagging members off with insults like "ridiculous."

Again timeslicing will still have ghost artifacts, they timeslice fast to remove ghost artifacts from video and "stutter". it's about time at zero to time at n where n is your total exposure, even if you take 1ns slices of that netween 0 and say the 1000th slice, things will have moved. this should really be common sense here. this isn't a problem with video because video motion moves from frame to frame. this is a problem with stills and is exasperated when you have extremely long exposures with stills as well.

Sure things will move. But you may not realize how short a microsecond is. Even really fast things may not move an entire pixel in a microsend.

I'll try to give you some numbers. Say it's 24MP with exactly 6000x4000 pixels. If we can really do 1ns/999ns (which adds up to 1 microsecond) slicing between our two sets of buckets, then it's a question of how fast across the frame moves in 1 microsecond. How fast would something have to be moving in order that exposures once a microsecond aren't actually connected, but rather a series of discrete dots?

To start with say our lens can resolve to about 2 pixels accuracy, just a little bit fuzzy. To get all the way across 6000 pixels, at no more than 2 pixels per microseond, would require 3000 microseconds. That's 3 thousandths of a second, or 1/333. Any faster than that and it ceases to look like a smooth continuous motion blur.

But that is freaking fast. How often do you have something in your frame that goes from not even the frame, to crossing the entire frame, to exiting the frame, in 1/300 or less of a second?

And if it's blurrier (too near or far to be in focus), point features won't be 2 pixels on the sensor but more. it could move even faster and still give the appearance of smooth continuous motion.

And that all is if the final image will be used at 6000x4000. If you're going to scale down to 1500x1000 for the web or what have you, it can be travelling yet four times faster yet.

So again, I'll totally grant that these special modes may not give precisely the expected results for all possible subjects. But I think few people are taking photos of things that are in the frame for less than 1/300 of a second. And when they do, maybe they decide they can't use this special mode for that special shot. But that's the story of our lives, man. Nothing in photography can be used for literally every shot, can it?
 
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canonnews

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I think people put too much stock in the stacked sensor design. Canon proved there are other ways to skin that cat, even if they are not as efficient. As far as guessing Canon might bring a tech they've been selling for years, I don't think it was ever a big stretch to see this coming. I personally threw it on my wish list for the R1 months ago when the expect drop was 2022-23. Same as the uber mega pixel 5Ds style sensor and camera pending. Some of this stuff is very obvious when you look at the past development trends.

There are fundamental core reasons why stacked is better for global shutter - it's not just a "nice to have", the fact is that unless you either go BSI, or you go stacked because you only have so much silicone space. On a normal sensor for efficiency, you need all that space taken up for photodiode wells. Anything that gets in the way of that will cost you stills dynamic range performance. That's just well, physics. Sony's done several different novel solutions (and even Canon has come up with a few) but all of them are based upon stacked designs. Usually three-layer designs so you can incorporate memory. Canon's done more R&D on global shutter stacked designs than global shutter non stacked designs. To get around using stacked you have to use novel solutions such as time slicing. but it's imperfect for both video and stills. you can get around it in video by making the slices smaller and smaller, but that's still not a good solution for stills.

To get too stacked sensors, Canon first has to develop a BSI sensor. They haven't even gotten that far yet. So no, when looking a "past development trends" there's really nothing out that that suggests Canon is about to shove a global shutter sensor into what is a stills camera first and foremost.
 
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Kit.

EOS 5D Mark IV
Apr 25, 2011
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At this point, the benefits of global shutter outweigh the stop* less of sensitivity and/or DR.
It's the stop less of highlights recovery (given the same photon shot noise on the subject).

*technological advancements are quickly closing this gap.
I don't see how. The piece of silicon is able to hold just that many electrons due to Pauli exclusion principle.

one just has to look at recent announcements and releases in the video/cine world with global shutter CMOS sensor cameras.
Are you about being creative with numbers in specs?
 

MiJax

EOS M6 Mark II
Mar 30, 2016
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There are fundamental core reasons why stacked is better for global shutter - it's not just a "nice to have", the fact is that unless you either go BSI, or you go stacked because you only have so much silicone space. On a normal sensor for efficiency, you need all that space taken up for photodiode wells. Anything that gets in the way of that will cost you stills dynamic range performance. That's just well, physics. Sony's done several different novel solutions (and even Canon has come up with a few) but all of them are based upon stacked designs. Usually three-layer designs so you can incorporate memory. Canon's done more R&D on global shutter stacked designs than global shutter non stacked designs. To get around using stacked you have to use novel solutions such as time slicing. but it's imperfect for both video and stills. you can get around it in video by making the slices smaller and smaller, but that's still not a good solution for stills.

To get too stacked sensors, Canon first has to develop a BSI sensor. They haven't even gotten that far yet. So no, when looking a "past development trends" there's really nothing out that that suggests Canon is about to shove a global shutter sensor into what is a stills camera first and foremost.

I've seen articles that mention the biggest deterrent to this tech (in 2017) was the inherent loss of DR, but nothing about Son'ys stacked sensor design. I imagine the stack sensor may be inherently better, but I haven't read anything that suggested it or similar tech was needed. I don't understand the tech well enough to know whether the stacked sensor poses any hindrances based on the architecture their global sensor, but I don't think that's a stretch either.

From the article, GLOBAL SHUTTER IS COMING TO CANON DSLRS ...EVENTUALLY, Written by George Shaw

From Canon, "...However, its dynamic range is narrow. To solve this problem, Canon made two major improvements. " The improvements Shaw refers to, "...Canon has improved this issue by doubling the saturated electrical charge coming off the photodiodes and then reading the data twice during processing. The result is that the sensor can read up to 16,200 electrons at 60 frames per second, while the original sensor data is 8100 at 120fps ".

Canon has also added a so-called “light guide structure,” which reflects more light onto the photodiodes in order to read the maximum amount of image data off the sensor. In order to accomplish this feat and not fall behind like their rolling shutter cousins, the new global sensor uses Canon's A-D (analog-digital) converter called "SSDG-ADC" to keep up. Both these improvements provide greater dynamic range, with less noise and under .45w of power consumption, easily better than a CMOS sensor reading the same image using rolling shutter.

Again, this is not a theoretical sensor, they have current distributors in place for the industrial CMOS sales now. This is tech that is well down the road with a little maturation. Unfortunately, I can't find the white paper Canon published on it a few years back, but I don't think that is necessary to prove the point. Canon has been busy.
 

YuengLinger

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Dec 20, 2012
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What I've learned, after five pages here, is that 21 MP is not a deal killer. More to a camera than MP.

Epiphany.
 

vignes

EOS M50
Oct 19, 2017
29
28
Australia
GS sensor will come but it'll be expensive. so no surprises but GS sensor in R line up is questionable? people are complaining R5 is expensive so how is Canon going to price this. it most likely will end up in speciality product and high end cine line where they can ask for high price. I can see them putting this in R when competition like Sony start doing it and use GS sensor in their A9 series. Sony started doing this by using stacked sensor in A9 series and ask for a premium price. I can't see Canon using this in their 1DX equivalent R. they'll have to maintain a certain price point for this series. Canon might create a new series for R.
 

koenkooi

EOS 5D Mark IV
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Feb 25, 2015
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[..] The microprocessor company ARM for instance subcontracts all of its manufacture out. [..]

I have to step in here, Arm Ltd. sells designs and architecture licenses, they don't sell actual silicon. So Arm doesn't have any manufacturing to subcontract out. However, a lot of Arm licensees do use fab-less design, so they have e.g. TSMC produce the design they have licensed from Arm.
 

EOS 4 Life

EOS R
Sep 20, 2020
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120fps? How long does it take to fill up a 2TB CFexpress card?
I do not hear photographers complaining as much about the cost of media as I do from videographers.
My theory is that film was expensive while videotape was pretty affordable.
Film is also one and done where CFExpress cards can be used over and over.
 

SwissFrank

from EOS 1N to R
Dec 9, 2018
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I have to step in here, Arm Ltd. sells designs and architecture licenses, they don't sell actual silicon. So Arm doesn't have any manufacturing to subcontract out. However, a lot of Arm licensees do use fab-less design, so they have e.g. TSMC produce the design they have licensed from Arm.
Agreed, of course. I agree Arm's not a B2C company like Canon (or at least, Canon's EF and RF lines of cameras). Still, B2B, B2C, that's not really the core of my point. My point is that ARM designs stuff they can't manufacture. Apple designs stuff they can't manufacture. My personal work history involves Sony, Fujitsu, Toshiba, Hitachi, all MAKERS of PALs, nonetheless designing quite a few PALs they didn't have the capability to make and thus outsourcing their manufacture to Motorola via my old firm Omron.

In fact you'd probably have a hard time finding a firm the size of Canon that DOES manufacture literally everything they design.

And yet while Canon's described a certain sensor in detail in papers, and we now have leaks of the coming manufacture of something fitting the papers' description... nonetheless the website owner is telling us that because he personally doesn't know that Canon has facilities to manufacture this part, therefore it is absolutely utterly impossible that the part is the part described in the paper. And insulting me for even suggesting it.
 

EOS 4 Life

EOS R
Sep 20, 2020
989
786
Camera MP are a lot like CPU Ghz used to be in the late 90's. Intel and AMD used to chase each other to the next 0.1 Ghz speed increase and brag loudly each increment. If your computer was more than 0.5 Ghz behind you felt like you had a clunker. But they hit 4Ghz around 2005 and since then haven't gone anywhere. Current models are all in the 3 to 4 Ghz range 15 years later.
20.x MP is the 3.5Ghz of camera tech.
Now that has been replaced with nm.
People keep comparing Intel 10 nm, AMD 7nm, and ARM 5nm even though their architectures are so much different.
 

TracerHD

Canon EOS R1 Pro
Aug 22, 2019
35
16
First thought:
if I had to chose between an R5 and an R1 (21MP global shutter) I would go with the R1.
 

addola

Sold my soul for a flippy screen
Nov 16, 2015
151
144
Global shutter on a stills camera sensor? Seems fake.

Global shutter will avoid banding when using flash, and allows much higher shutter speeds with flash.

In 2017, Canon published a research paper on that 2/3" sensor. It was published in an IEEE Journal, and titled "A 1.8e-rms Temporal Noise Over 110-dB-Dynamic Range 3.4 μm Pixel Pitch Global-Shutter CMOS Image Sensor With Dual-Gain Amplifiers SS-ADC, Light Guide Structure, and Multiple-Accumulation Shutter".

The rumors is very believable, but whether it is practical or ready for everyday use in a consumer product is another story.