Let’s talk Canon EOS R1, the flagship of flagships?

Jethro

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Haven't all of the 5D series cameras had a higher megapixel FF sensors than 1D series cameras. Not just the 1DS or 1DX series FF cameras. Even the 6D Series has had higher megapixel FF sensors. The 5D series was always marketed more towards high megapixels. The 1D series was never marketed toward high megapixels. It was marketed as the "best" that Canon offers. Also the jack of all trades cameras.
In the case of the R1 it partly depends on what the R3 ends up being: ie is it a 'placeholder' body as some have speculated, meaning that a future R1 would build upon it, and likely be an even better (!) high speed / low MP monster, or is the R3 intended to be the start of an ongoing series, and the R1 something distinguishable from the R3? In which case, the R1 would likely be higher MP than the R, although whether it would be >45MP would be another Q entirely.
 
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In the case of the R1 it partly depends on what the R3 ends up being: ie is it a 'placeholder' body as some have speculated, meaning that a future R1 would build upon it, and likely be an even better (!) high speed / low MP monster, or is the R3 intended to be the start of an ongoing series, and the R1 something distinguishable from the R3? In which case, the R1 would likely be higher MP than the R, although whether it would be >45MP would be another Q entirely.
The R1 could replace the "3" series entirely and not have a Mark II version. There was no "3" series DSLR camera only film. Canon did have a "5" series film camera. In some places it was marketed the "A2/ A2E". The "3" ended replacing that camera and it also brought E-TTL to the midrange camera for the first time. The previous "5" camera on had TTL & A-TTL flash metering. The EOS 1V was the first "1" series film camera to have E-TTL no other "1" series film camera had this. The Elan 7/ Elan II was the first EOS film camera to have E-TTL flash metering. No other camera at the time supported E-TTL and it also supported High FP or High Speed Sync. The 380EX speedlite was the first E-TTL/ EX speedlite released by Canon.
 
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Jethro

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The R1 could replace the "3" series entirely and not have a Mark II version. There was no "3" series DSLR camera only film. Canon did have a "5" series film camera. In some places it was marketed the "A2/ A2E". The "3" ended replacing that camera and it also brought E-TTL to the midrange camera for the first time. The previous "5" camera on had TTL & A-TTL flash metering. The EOS 1V was the first "1" series film camera to have E-TTL no other "1" series film camera had this. The Elan 7/ Elan II was the first EOS film camera to have E-TTL flash metering. No other camera at the time supported E-TTL and it also supported High FP or High Speed Sync. The 380EX speedlite was the first E-TTL/ EX speedlite released by Canon.
That's possible - and other posters have suggested that the R3 was part of the original development of the R1, but was not quite at the standard Canon wanted for it's first mirrorless benchmark body under the R1 name. But, I wonder, if that was the case, why they would give it a 'new' designation - as R3? It seems strange to me to use a number like that for a one-off.
 
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That's possible - and other posters have suggested that the R3 was part of the original development of the R1, but was not quite at the standard Canon wanted for it's first mirrorless benchmark body under the R1 name. But, I wonder, if that was the case, why they would give it a 'new' designation - as R3? It seems strange to me to use a number like that for a one-off.
The first EOS-1 film camera wouldn't appear until September 1989. 2 years after the launch of the new EOS/ EF Mount system in 1987. In fact Canon's first EOS camera the EOS 650 was only an entry level camera that was released in March of 1987. The mid range EOS 620 wouldn't arrive until May of that year. The EOS 630 was released in April 1989 serving as the de facto top of the line camera. Until the launch of the first EOS-1 in September of that year. The first Ring Type USM lens lens was released in November 1987 allowing for high speed AF. That lens was the EF 300mm F/2.8L USM lens. This lens had Manual Focus Override setup differently. This lens didn't have a normal clutch override system. It used an electronic focus ring like STM lenses and Nano USM lenses use. This system is quite slow by modern standards.
 
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That's possible - and other posters have suggested that the R3 was part of the original development of the R1, but was not quite at the standard Canon wanted for it's first mirrorless benchmark body under the R1 name. But, I wonder, if that was the case, why they would give it a 'new' designation - as R3? It seems strange to me to use a number like that for a one-off.
Canon may have decided that when they combined the 1D and 1Ds lines into a single 1D X, they made a mistake and with the R series it’s time to return to having two gripped/pro bodies. If so, the R3 is the ‘fast’ 1D in that analogy, which would make the R1 the ‘high res’ 1Ds.

It seems that’s the hope of some people here, though it’s not clear how many of those people would actually purchase an R1. Case in point, the aforementioned troll @Cyborx who ‘lost patience’ with the 24 MP R3’s disappointingly low resolution…so he bought the 24 MP R6II instead. :rolleyes: :ROFLMAO:

It wouldn’t surprise me at all if the R3 is a one-off. Canon was clear that the tech was not yet ready for the 1-series designation (being honest, having my R3 AF fail in a subject with strong contrast because that contrast happens to be horizontally-oriented puts me in agreement with Canon on that).

I’m confident that Canon knows far better than the @GoldWings and @Cyborxs on this forum the MP count that actual buyers of the R1 want, and that’s what they’ll deliver.

For some reason people think the R1 must compete with the Sony and Nikon flagships (and not even the current versions but the next versions, at that), especially on MP count. It’s important to realize that brand switching is uncommon, and gets more so higher up the line. It’s also important to realize that Canon dominates the ILC market, especially the DSLR market that remains a significant majority of the installed base. Taken together, that means that the main target market for the R1 is 1-series DSLR owners, and secondarily owners of other high-end Canon ILCs. That’s a market for which Canon thoroughly understands their needs. History suggests a modest MP bump is warranted, not a big jump.

The wild card is the affluent amateur segment that’s becoming increasingly important. I suspect those folks are more likely to switch (no need for a business justification), are more likely to want to ‘keep up with the Joneses’, and I know some of them fall into the ‘having more dollars than sense’ category. If Canon gives that segment precedence, we may see a ‘high res’ R1 (45-60 MP). Not too high, though, because I also believe they’ll be an R5s at some point.
 
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unfocused

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Jethro

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The wild card is the affluent amateur segment that’s becoming increasingly important. I suspect those folks are more likely to switch (no need for a business justification), are more likely to want to ‘keep up with the Joneses’, and I know some of them fall into the ‘having more dollars than sense’ category. If Canon gives that segment precedence, we may see a ‘high res’ R1 (45-60 MP). Not too high, though, because I also believe they’ll be an R5s at some point.
There's a lot of moving parts here:
  • The R3 might be an ongoing pro-'high speed low MP' body, meaning there could be a R3 II
  • In which case the R1, which we're sure is coming at some stage and probably early/mid 2024, would likely be a higher MP pro body than the R3, maybe with more Video capacity and less FPS
  • If the R3 is a on-off, then the R1 could take it's place as the high speed / low MP monster
  • If the R1 ends up being higher MP, what about the R5, which is extremely successful, and comes from a long line of all-rounder bodies, because the likelihood is that the R5 II would see a bump in MP (perhaps a modest bump to 50 MP) - so what would a higher MP R1 look like in that context? Closer to 45MP, but with the addition of some of the fancy features that have been speculated on?
  • Then there is the mythical R5s, which would have to be substantially higher MP than the R5 II to be distinguishable.
Lots of combinations possible there.
 
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I think you’re missing the point. The R3’s 1/180 s in ES may seem slow, but probably that’s the best achievable with its stacked sensor. The R1 may do a little better, but I’d call a 1/3- to 1/2-stop improvement ‘similar to the R3’. Of course, if the R1 has a global shutter, it will be a completely different story…not that I expect that to happen.
From a competitor perspective, the Z9 handles 1/200s flash sync (HSS above that)... but the manual mentions 1/250s as well so it isn't clear to me if NIkon improved it in a later firmware update as 1/200s is mentioned in the initial reviews. That shouldn't be possible given it is the sensor readout speed that determines it

Flash sync speed is set to 1/250 or 1/200 s. With compatible flash units, auto FP high-speed sync will automatically be enabledat shutter speeds faster than 1/250 or 1/200 s.
  • In modes P and A, auto FP high-speed sync will be activated if the actual shutter speed is fasterthan 1/250 or 1/200 s. If the flash supports auto FP high-speed sync, the camera can select shutter speedsas fast as 1/8000 s.
  • In modes S and M, the user can select shutter speeds as fast as 1/8000 s when using flash units that support auto FP high-speed sync.
 
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It wouldn’t surprise me at all if the R3 is a one-off. Canon was clear that the tech was not yet ready for the 1-series designation (being honest, having my R3 AF fail in a subject with strong contrast because that contrast happens to be horizontally-oriented puts me in agreement with Canon on that).
Change to portrait orientation?? :cool:
 
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The R6 was the exception but not the R6 Mark II. Most camera manufacturers don't market there top of the line cameras as megapixel powerhouses. Its usually there midrange FF camera that is. Such as the 5D (now R5) series for Canon, Nikon's D8xx (now Z8) series, Sony's A7R (formerly A7 APS-C DSLR/ DSLT even though not FF) series, Pentax's K3 (Even Though APS-C NOT FF or MILC) series (DSLR cameras ONLY no mirrorless system).
It was certainly the case in the past where the flagships weren't high megapixel but we can't say that of the A1 (50mp)/Z9/Z8 (45mp) now. Yes, the A7Rv has 61mp and was released 7 months ago and the A1 2 years before that. The sensor resolution expectation for the R1 is derived by its competition and that the R3 isn't high megapixel but is also not seen as Canon's flagship

45mp just seems to be a current sweet spot from a 8k video and ease of 4k downscaling perspective, great ability to crop heavily for stills and PC current performance. 50/61mp means cropping or downscaling for video.
For sure there are use cases for higher mp sensors for stills and possibly including support for 10k video (~70mp in 3:2) or 12k (~100mp in 3:2) which would be a niche market
 
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From a competitor perspective, the Z9 handles 1/200s flash sync (HSS above that)... but the manual mentions 1/250s as well so it isn't clear to me if NIkon improved it in a later firmware update as 1/200s is mentioned in the initial reviews. That shouldn't be possible given it is the sensor readout speed that determines it

Flash sync speed is set to 1/250 or 1/200 s. With compatible flash units, auto FP high-speed sync will automatically be enabledat shutter speeds faster than 1/250 or 1/200 s.
  • In modes P and A, auto FP high-speed sync will be activated if the actual shutter speed is fasterthan 1/250 or 1/200 s. If the flash supports auto FP high-speed sync, the camera can select shutter speedsas fast as 1/8000 s.
  • In modes S and M, the user can select shutter speeds as fast as 1/8000 s when using flash units that support auto FP high-speed sync.
Canon doesn't offer Automatic High Speed Sync selection. High Speed Sync must be manually enabled via the speedlite control menu if the speedlite was released from 2008-present. Or must be enabled on the speedlite itself if the speedlite was released prior to 2008. Canon also supports speedlites using Intermittent Flash Firing for AF Assist as needed. The speedlite can emit a High Speed Sync type pulse of light long enough for the camera to lock focus in low light. Some speedlites offer both "Infrared" and Intermittent Flash Firing. Canon has 2 speedlites that have an LED AF Assist Beam. Those are the EL-5 and the discontinued 320EX. The EL-5 supports automatic brightness adjustment of the LED AF Assist on the R6 Mark II, R8 & R50. Older multi interface shoe cameras such as the R3, R7 & R10 only support full output. The speedlite can only provide a bright LED light for AF Assist. If its too dark the speedlite automatically switches to Intermittent Flash Firing. Nikon sadly doesn't have a speedlite that has an LED AF Assist yet. Nikon is relying on the body lamp for that. Canon dropped the body lamp on DSLRs in 2003 with the 10D. Canon's APS-C DSLR cameras utilize the built in flash for AF Assist using Intermittent Flash Firing.
 
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My wishes for R1 are no banding when using electronic shutter, better wifi because the wifi of the R3 is not good enough and if eliminating banding is not possible then a faster mechanical shutter. I'm shooting sports so my wishes are related to that perspective.
The banding on my R5 under indoor lighting means that eshutter is basically useless for that use case. Improvements in a R1 wouldn't entice me to upgrade though. I do wonder how well the Z9/Z8 performs though
 
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It was certainly the case in the past where the flagships weren't high megapixel but we can't say that of the A1 (50mp)/Z9/Z8 (45mp) now. Yes, the A7Rv has 61mp and was released 7 months ago and the A1 2 years before that. The sensor resolution expectation for the R1 is derived by its competition and that the R3 isn't high megapixel but is also not seen as Canon's flagship

45mp just seems to be a current sweet spot from a 8k video and ease of 4k downscaling perspective, great ability to crop heavily for stills and PC current performance. 50/61mp means cropping or downscaling for video.
For sure there are use cases for higher mp sensors for stills and possibly including support for 10k video (~70mp in 3:2) or 12k (~100mp in 3:2) which would be a niche market
The megapixel wars have come to flagship cameras now. Sony brought out a new flagship the "A1". In the original Minolta A Mount system the "9" series was the flagship. When Sony acquired the Minolta "A" Mount they kept the "9" series flagship with DSLR/ DSLT cameras. It wasn't until recently that Sony made the "1" series the flagship camera.
It was certainly the case in the past where the flagships weren't high megapixel but we can't say that of the A1 (50mp)/Z9/Z8 (45mp) now. Yes, the A7Rv has 61mp and was released 7 months ago and the A1 2 years before that. The sensor resolution expectation for the R1 is derived by its competition and that the R3 isn't high megapixel but is also not seen as Canon's flagship

45mp just seems to be a current sweet spot from a 8k video and ease of 4k downscaling perspective, great ability to crop heavily for stills and PC current performance. 50/61mp means cropping or downscaling for video.
For sure there are use cases for higher mp sensors for stills and possibly including support for 10k video (~70mp in 3:2) or 12k (~100mp in 3:2) which would be a niche market
 
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The sensor resolution expectation for the R1 is derived by its competition
Why should that be the case? The resolution expectation should be driven by the needs of the target market. Hint: there’s likely not much real overlap between the target markets for different brands’ flagship cameras.
 
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Do you think megapixel wars will hit flagship cameras.
Sony and Nikon released higher MP flagships. If Canon does so, it’ll be because the target market – mainly owners of the 1D X II and III – want that, not because Sony and Nikon have it.

Sony sort of had to, they’d had higher MP cameras across the line for some time. Nikon has bled users in recent years, and since most of them went to Sony, they need to woo them back from Sony. Canon is not in either of those positions.

2012 – 1D X, 18 MP
2016 – 1D X II, 20 MP
2020 – 1D X III, 20 MP
[2021 – R3, 24 MP]
2024 – R1, __ MP

Patterns…
 
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john1970

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Interesting discussion about hypothetical R1 specifications. Yes if Canon determines that in order to compete with the Z9/A1 as a flagship then they will release a camera with ~45 MP to allow for 8K video.

I definitely do not want more than 45 MP and honestly would be content with 36 MP.

I am more interest in a limitless buffer, cross-type AF points, and a potential global sensor.
 
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Sony and Nikon released higher MP flagships. If Canon does so, it’ll be because the target market – mainly owners of the 1D X II and III – want that, not because Sony and Nikon have it.

Sony sort of had to, they’d had higher MP cameras across the line for some time. Nikon has bled users in recent years, and since most of them went to Sony, they need to woo them back from Sony. Canon is not in either of those positions.

2012 – 1D X, 18 MP
2016 – 1D X II, 20 MP
2020 – 1D X III, 20 MP
[2021 – R3, 24 MP]
2024 – R1, __ MP

Patterns…
It took Nikon years to recover after AF SLRs were released. I think it may take years for them to recover after the release of the Z Mount system. There were all sorts of problems when they released there first cameras. AWB, Auto Exposure and other stuff that we've had for years suddenly didn't work anymore. Nikon's live view AF in their DSLRs were quite slow and nowhere near Canon's level. Since Canon had great live view AF system they just transferred it to the EOS R series. Since it was great and working well. Canon didn't have any sort of problems that Nikon faced in the early days or mirrorless.
 
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