The Canon EOS R5 Mark II coming in Q2, 2023? [CR2]

[AlanF]

I don't think anyone here *objects* to more MP. The problem is that we'll likely have only 2 choices - either shoot at maximum megapixel RAW, or if we want smaller file sizes, shoot on lower quality JPEG or HEIF.

It would be much better IMO if hi-res cameras had an option to shoot RAWs at lower resolutions via pixel-binning, so that the full tonal and colour gamut was present. What I'd really like to see is the option to choose between (e.g.) 90MP, 45MP and 22.5MP RAWs.

I read an article from a manufacturer of high level detectors for scientific instruments that for current CMOS sensors you cannot simply bin pixels because each row is read out sequentially. To bin them, the sensor is read out normally and then the pixels are binned Post collection. So rolling shutter data collection can’t currently directly produce a lower resolution RAW file.

 

[entoman]

Just because it is slower does not mean it is older.
It just means it is less costly to make.

If the sensor is older, it nearly always has a slower readout than a more recent one, which I think is what Alan was putting across. There's nothing wrong in recycling an older and slower sensor (to bring the price down), as long as the buyer understands that it may be inferior. It would be helpful to potential purchasers, if reviews indicated the readout speed in the specification listings.

 

[entoman]

I read an article from a manufacturer of high level detectors for scientific instruments that for current CMOS sensors you cannot simply bin pixels because each row is read out sequentially. To bin them, the sensor is read out normally and then the pixels are binned Post collection. So rolling shutter data collection can’t currently directly produce a lower resolution RAW file.

Thanks for the explanation. Another dream shattered

I guess that means we'll have to wait for global shutter before pixel-binning can be used to allow a choice of uncropped resolutions.

 

[David - Sydney]

I don't think anyone here *objects* to more MP. The problem is that we'll likely have only 2 choices - either shoot at maximum megapixel RAW, or if we want smaller file sizes, shoot on lower quality JPEG or HEIF.

It would be much better IMO if hi-res cameras had an option to shoot RAWs at lower resolutions via pixel-binning, so that the full tonal and colour gamut was present. What I'd really like to see is the option to choose between (e.g.) 90MP, 45MP and 22.5MP RAWs.

Pixel binning loses pixel detail and hence will always be worse than oversampling the full sensor.
Yes, pixel binning will be "raw" in nature just with a smaller light gathering capacity but oversampling uses the light from the full sensor irrespective of the final file size.
mRAW/sRAW oversampled options would still (as far as I know) have a CR3 file prefix rather than jpg/HEIF file.
Having 2 processors would be needed to do the oversampling at fast frame rates.

 

[BroderLund]

Hoping the electronic shutter will be 14bit and not reduced to 12bit that the R5 does now.

 

[David - Sydney]

I read an article from a manufacturer of high level detectors for scientific instruments that for current CMOS sensors you cannot simply bin pixels because each row is read out sequentially. To bin them, the sensor is read out normally and then the pixels are binned Post collection. So rolling shutter data collection can’t currently directly produce a lower resolution RAW file.

That would be correct. Electrically, it would be line skipping from the sensor. Either the whole sensor is read as normal sequentially and the line dropped when assembling the data in series or the line not read at all. That would still be a "raw" file but with 3:1 aspect ratio
Any pixel binning algorithm would then need to "delete" alternative pixels from each skipped line by the processor.

Technically, pixel binning would still be raw but from from smaller pixels spread across the sensor.
Oversampling is preferred and would "measure" the well capacity across multiple pixels.
I'm sure that someone can provide the maths to support this

 

[neuroanatomist]

It would be much better IMO if hi-res cameras had an option to shoot RAWs at lower resolutions via pixel-binning, so that the full tonal and colour gamut was present. What I'd really like to see is the option to choose between (e.g.) 90MP, 45MP and 22.5MP RAWs.

So you want 3:1 or a 3:4 aspect ratio? That’s what you’d get binning 2 pixels to go from 90 MP to 45 MP with a RAW file output, plus that would be problematic to demosaic. (FYI, the 36 and 18 MP output from Leica’s 60 MP aren’t RAW, they’re downsampled DNGs.)

From a 90 MP sensor you could have theoretically have 90 MP, 22.5 MP and 5.6 MP RAW files, if you like.

 

[PaulieWalnuts]

Really interested in the hi-res pixel shift. Hoping Canon gets it right like Lumix and doesn't take Sony's awful approach.

I have an S1R that creates 187MP raw files in-camera like a normal photo and the motion compensation works extremely well. Sony's hi-res pixel shift is half baked marketing BS. My A7RIV creates multiple files in camera that then need to be moved to a computer and processed through Sony's slow and clunky Imaging Edge software just to create a single raw file. This mess of a process doesn't change with the A7RV.

I love the S1R but it's DSLR size, Lumix seems to be slowly dying, and lens selection is limited. Would love to go back to Canon if they get the pixel shift done right.

 

[David - Sydney]

If these rumours were true, I wouldn't upgrade. I am finding that my current R5 is sufficient for my shooting needs and it was a long term investment - especially for an underwater housing to suit it.

60mp sensor... seems to be coincidental with A7rv but may assuage the R5s community

Dual Digic... first time in a "5" series body assuming that the same size body is used
Could help with thermal dissipation but it would be fun to see how Canon would fit them on the circuit board given how packed it is currently.
Needed to do the oversampling from 60mp for 8k video vs the simplicity of 45mp. Also oversampling for smaller files.
Canon's power/battery efficiency isn't great wrt CIPA numbers if nothing else. Type B cards/heat and low power processor doesn't seem to be there. Dual processors aren't likely to be more efficient => less shots

BSI... seems to be reasonable rumour but hardly unexpected.
Low read noise should be better
Faster readout? Would be needed due to high mp sensor to keep the same rolling shutter. Will BSI be sufficient to increase read out or only stacked sensor?

2x USB-C... nice for dual power/recording for the video folks. HDMI 2.1 and USB-C thunderbolt would impress them greatly.

Dual CFe makes sense but also a new feature on a "5" series body
USB-C/thunderbolt would also reduce the issue of no SD card by only needing a USB-C cable vs a SD reader/PC slot or CFe reader.
No real cost differences now and more CFe choice is a good thing
Reduces buffer clearance for bursts when recording raw to both slots with ~75 meg file size (60mp raw)
SD cards have reached their practical limit. Ubiquitous but UHS-ii is the end of the road. UHS-iii will never be released commercially and SD express has been limited to a couple of PCs and suppliers. CFe Type B has dominated the market. Type A is an expensive niche that most Sony users aren't even using.

Full sized HDMI port is the most common complaint for external video users

Pixel shift/high res.... should be able to implement via firmware today. Niche usage with gigapixel/upres software and has ghosting issues

 

[David - Sydney]

Things not mentioned that would improve the current R5:
- Variable eShutter rate. With 30fps, you would hope so!
- 14bit output using eShutter and management of banding under indoor lighting would be excellent!
- Mechanically stronger hotshoe would be nice
- Ability to remap the Rate button
- The fancy AF-on smart controller button from 1DXiii/R3 would be nice

 

[neuroanatomist]

Will BSI be sufficient to increase read out or only stacked sensor?

Does BSI increase readout speed? Data from recent sensors suggest otherwise.

 

[David - Sydney]

Does BSI increase readout speed? Data from recent sensors suggest otherwise.

View attachment 206525

Interesting chart! What's the source?
The A1/Z9 are pretty impressive!
For the R5ii to be equal/better then the sensor would need to be the best BSI... which could be okay given that Canon has the best read out for FSI
DPR reports that the A7Rv has "significant rolling shutter" as well but no measurements yet for read out speed.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Interesting chart! What's the source?
The A1/Z9 are pretty impressive!
For the R5ii to be equal/better then the sensor would need to be the best BSI... which could be okay given that Canon has the best read out for FSI
DPR reports that the A7Rv has "significant rolling shutter" as well but no measurements yet for read out speed.

It was posted by @Skyscraperfan, with attribution.

Canon Cinema EOS Cameras Coming in 2023 [CR3]

It looks like Canon is finally going to be updating some of the Cinema EOS lineup in 2023, we think a lot of products have been delayed and reworked over the last 12-18 months. It looks like Canon will make a splash at NAB in April in Las Vegas. We are likely to see a See full article...

www.canonrumors.com

 

[gmon750]

I'm about 1 year into my new R5. Absolutely love it. I bought it for underwater photography and the underwater housing costs as much (or more) than the camera body. I would be very irked if Canon includes dual CFExpress slots as that was one the one key complaint I have about my R5. It should have had dual CFExpress cards to begin with and as I always shoot redundantly, the extra bandwidth of the CFExpress is essentially crippled to the speed of the SD card and that is a shame.

My only hope is that the R5M2 keeps the same body/buttons/location/etc so I can use my current housing. If not, I'm married to my R5 for the very long, foreseeable future.

 

[Antono Refa]

I'm sure it won't be as good as post-processing on a Mac

But might be better than post processing on a PC? ;-)

 

[sanj]

Hoping the electronic shutter will be 14bit and not reduced to 12bit that the R5 does now.

Shutter is 'bits'??

 

[Skyscraperfan]

Shutter is 'bits'??

Yes, sadly bit depth depends on the kind of shutter you use. With electronic shutter you lose 2 bits. That means you lose 98.4% of all colours.

 

[koenkooi]

If these rumours were true, I wouldn't upgrade. I am finding that my current R5 is sufficient for my shooting needs and it was a long term investment - especially for an underwater housing to suit it.[...]

I feel pretty much the same, 2.5 years seems very short for replacing a camera like the R5. I used my 7D for 9 years Having said that, I was very tempted to swap my R5 for an R6II, since that could probably be done with little or no money involved. The software on that fixes a number of issues I've run into recently, like not being able to limit eye/subject detection to a zone.
I'm expecting the R5II to have even more software improvements, hopefully copying the 'detect only AF' feature from the video side over to the still side and have software defined focus limits. But I don't know if it will be enough for me to switch, after such a relatively short time. The R5III in late 2025 will be an even better camera!

Worst case scenario for such first world problems: Canon announces the R5II, M6II-with-RF-mount, RF200L macro, MP-R65mm and a new twin flash. And all of those will be so much better than their predecessors that it's worth upgrading, but you can only pick one

 

[Antono Refa]

Anecdotally, I've been on several shoots/ vacations where either a card was corrupted or lost and being able to pop into almost any local store and find a 32 or 64gb SD card for $20 or less is amazing. I've got so many cards now that I just keep some in my car, camera bag, laptop bag, etc... Just so I always have one or two laying around.

One of the things I miss about my old Minolta film camera is the ubiquity of film and AA batteries. I spent several hours travelling Oklahoma City (it sticks in my memory, because it happened to be on the week Timothy McVeigh was executed), and my boss joked that every so often I would stop for a bottle of water, a roll of film, and a battery.

Nowadays, every mall has a store that sells SD cards. Some sell LP-E6 batteries, though I wouldn't bet on how much charge they hold out of the package. Haven't seen CFe cards sold outside of photography shops.

 

[Benjamin_L]

What exactly do you want them to update? Stacked sensor via firmware? Dual CFExpress via firmware? There are a finite amount of things firmware can actually do when using the same hardware.

Autofocus, object detection, eye prioritization, pre burst. Heck even this high resolution thingie could most likely be implemented as well. I am fully aware hardware upgrades can't be solved by firmware...