Teardown: The Canon EOS R5 gets an autopsy

[vignes]

I can't get through a single thing from EOSHD. That guy is so full of ego and states his opinions as facts without sufficient logic or substantiation. Having a following doesn't make someone right. He typically makes emotional stabs at anyone in his forum who dares to disagree with him, however civilly they are discussing a matter.

As for making assumptions on the teardown and materials of R5? Are any of these talking heads or random people with angry opinions (because they can't buy a cinema camera for $4000) actually electronics engineers or have ever done a thermal analysis? If so, I expect more rigor than they are presenting. I have plenty of knowledge in this area and will leave it at that, but I'm not here making speculations despite my knowledge. Unless I know the power dissipation of all components in all modes, the thermal resistivity in each material, and run a 3D thermal analysis myself, I know better than to guess. There is no point acting like we know what the problem fully is. Sure, testing might yield some results, but people acting like Canon are idiots are being unfair....The assumption that armchair engineering is better than a dedicated team that cares about the product at Canon is ridiculous.

Regarding calling for legal action because people cannot read a spec sheet? Good luck in court with that weak argument and your 'righteous' anger. Pretty hard to make a legal case when you were told prior to purchase there are limits with the camera video modes, and that other camera activity could also downgrade the recording time.

Yes, if all you care about is a dedicated video camera that does all this incredible footage in a tiny MILC body, it is not for you, grab a Sony and enjoy life and 12MP stills. You are also unrealistic for thinking a full frame high MP camera with IBIS in a weather sealed body would NOT have some heat issues doing all that. As the mirrorless 5D5 this camera delivers incredible stills and light duty video. I'm having a blast with it and already producing great images.

Certain people always focus on the negative and are always victims no matter how much logic is applied.

so A7Siii is not weather sealed?

 

[Sean C]

tldr: real world SSD/USB flash differ in heat dissipation; do Cfast cards?

Die shrinks in the flash and controller, controller design and firmware power management all make a power draw/heat dissipation difference. I've noticed that in at least SSDs and USB memory sticks.

Cooler cards would also use less battery power, which is at a premium for mirrorless cameras.

Are some Cfast cards more power efficient than others both at idle and while in use?
If not, is this something card vendors could develop in firmware? (with or without coordination with camera manufacturers)

 

[DBounce]

So you've pivoted from it being useless because it overheats, to some wild conspiracy theory that the camera only pretends to overheat because of the cinema line?

Yeesh.

My opinion evolves as new information becomes available. As nothing from freezing... to blowing cold air into the body through the open lens mount... to ice cubes... and even prayer seems to be able to increase recording times or reduce recover times, I am left to conclude that one of the following must be true:

A. Canon has specifically added limits within the firmware to prevent full use of these features.

Or

B. Canon has constructed the body of the R5 from an alien alloy, shared with them as part of “the good package “.

You pick the more likely option.

 

[Stu_bert]

tldr: real world SSD/USB flash differ in heat dissipation; do Cfast cards?

Die shrinks in the flash and controller, controller design and firmware power management all make a power draw/heat dissipation difference. I've noticed that in at least SSDs and USB memory sticks.

Cooler cards would also use less battery power, which is at a premium for mirrorless cameras.

Are some Cfast cards more power efficient than others both at idle and while in use?
If not, is this something card vendors could develop in firmware? (with or without coordination with camera manufacturers)

Y

tldr: real world SSD/USB flash differ in heat dissipation; do Cfast cards?

Die shrinks in the flash and controller, controller design and firmware power management all make a power draw/heat dissipation difference. I've noticed that in at least SSDs and USB memory sticks.

Cooler cards would also use less battery power, which is at a premium for mirrorless cameras.

Are some Cfast cards more power efficient than others both at idle and while in use?
If not, is this something card vendors could develop in firmware? (with or without coordination with camera manufacturers)

You're right, but I wonder how small the CFE market is, in comparison to the SSD/USB Flash drive, and therefore how much incentive there is. Camera manufacturers don't have too many choices for high speed internal cards. What would motivate CFE vendors to produce a better thermal product?

I wonder if Canon would be prepared to say, use Brand X and get 20 mins, or use Brand Y and get 30 mins. Canon is making a recommendation, and then if Brand Y doesnt last as long as Brand X.....

I would hope Canon looked at this, and when they did there wasn't much difference.

Still, hopefully I will have a Sony CFE in 2 days, so I am happy to post if this gives different times...

 

[Stu_bert]

My opinion evolves as new information becomes available. As nothing from freezing... to blowing cold air into the body through the open lens mount... to ice cubes... and even prayer seems to be able to increase recording times or reduce recover times, I am left to conclude that one of the following must be true:

A. Canon has specifically added limits within the firmware to prevent full use of these features.

Or

B. Canon has constructed the body of the R5 from an alien alloy, shared with them as part of “the good package “.

You pick the more likely option.

or

C. None of the above

 

[Greywind]

The way thermal pads were placed is so wrong that it feels conspiracy. The placement of components does not look like Canon is trying to mitigate overheating as well.
Some small modification in design might improve this: dedicated thin heat pipe (like the one in smartphone) for CPU. Or 3mm thicker body for space of thermal management.
I got the implication that Canon just don't want R5/R6 to be too good. Well they are a company after all and money talks.

 

[SteveC]

The way thermal pads were placed is so wrong that it feels conspiracy. The placement of components does not look like Canon is trying to mitigate overheating as well.
Some small modification in design might improve this: dedicated thin heat pipe (like the one in smartphone) for CPU. Or 3mm thicker body for space of thermal management.
I got the implication that Canon just don't want R5/R6 to be too good. Well they are a company after all and money talks.

You joined just to troll.

 

[Greywind]

You joined just to troll.

I joined to give my opinion. If you want to discuss, feel free to point where I'm wrong. I'm open to reasonable criticism.

 

[Jonathan Thill]

You joined just to troll.

And to join my ever growing ignore list

Not sure if I said it before, but I really do wonder if the people on everyone's ignore lists are just disagreeing with each other...

 

[SteveC]

I joined to give my opinion. If you want to discuss, feel free to point where I'm wrong. I'm open to reasonable criticism.

Reasonable criticism? For a totally unreasonable allegation of conspiracy? Where does one start?

Troll.

 

[raptor3x]

So you've pivoted from it being useless because it overheats, to some wild conspiracy theory that the camera only pretends to overheat because of the cinema line?

Yeesh.

The design shown in the teardown is indeed somewhat bizarre. At the very least, Canon clearly did not prioritize thermal management in the camera's design.

 

[VictraBarca]

SDExpress here we comeeee

 

[scyrene]

And what part makes you LOL exactly?

Perhaps the second follows from the first...

 

[scyrene]

I joined to give my opinion. If you want to discuss, feel free to point where I'm wrong. I'm open to reasonable criticism.

You didn't make any substantive points. To paraphrase an old quote, you're not even wrong. "It feels like conspiracy" isn't worth criticising.

 

[HarryFilm]

Can't wait to hear the pontifications of all you camera designers and developers... the incredible musings of expertise from this short video.

Right On Here! Since we actually DID DESIGN and BUILD a three million dollar 131,072 by 131,072 pixel CMOS image sensor on an ultra large 400mm Si-substrate glued to a large plate of micro-channel embedded Al2O3 ceramic which melts at about 2072 degrees celcius ... AND a 50.3 megapixel Global Shutter IP69/Milspec 810-G rated combined Stills/video system.... I think I can DEFINITELY chime in on HOW Canon could fix this!

First thing they need to add is a long term heat sink that is of enough mass and such a poor conductor of heat that it can ABSORB heat continuously and dissipate it ever SLOOOOOLY for many hours (12 hours+)!

You need basically an interior shell of molded LI-900 Silica Tile within the back of the camera about 5mm thick that wraps around and/or encases only the rear of the camera and into the battery and card slot compartments.

A series of thermal transfer plates made of solid copper that are attached with a long-lasting thermal paste from the CPU(s), from the memory card slots and battery compartments will move heat via solid copper metal tubing that is embedded into the LI-900 silica.

It quite quickly transfer thermal energy into the ceramic tile very much in the same manner as the old U.S. Space Shuttle Heat Shield tiles did when that spacecraft re-entered the atmosphere and superheated the tiles to 1650 Celcius. So much heat was ABSORBED yet you could STILL TOUCH the corners of the tiles with your bare fingers!

Just based upon some observations and math from the OP's teardown, we could use LI-900 tile at 5mm thick to absorb about 12 hours MINIMUM worth of heat (i.e. 145,000 joules for a typical 40 watt ARM/Canon DIGIC cpu per hour is my estimate) if you use a heat sink mass that is 5mm thick like LI-900 Silica glass ceramic within a body the size of the Canon R5 which will STILL allow normal handheld operation for that entire period.

NO OTHER passive or active cooling would be needed!

The silica radiates heat so slowly that a simple external metal tube that goes from the interior of the LI-900 tile to a 2 cm square metal plate on the bottom of the camera could cool down the camera enough after the 12 hours of solid operation that it would be ready for use the next morning. To get EXTRA heat sink ability just use a thicker tile at up to 10mm thick.

At 0.144 grams per cubic cm, it is so light you can embed lots of it into the NEW R5 or R1 cameras!

Use a thicker ceramic plate at say 10 mm thick and we could get a full 24 hours worth of operation at full DCI 8k 30 fps or 120 fps DCI 4k recording on the Canon R5.

LI-900 Silica tile -- Try it Canon!

V

 

[visionrouge.net]

EOSHD and Andrew need to be discounted for the complete horseshit they/he are.

The thermal protection is part of the R5/R6 design. Hopefully Canon has learned from this release and will limit innovation in all future releases because the internet cannot read a fucking manual.

Canon publish with each JPG a temperature reading, so you may want to try it yourself... You just need to read the EXIF data.

Indoors, during the evening we conducted the test as follows:

1. We observed 30 Celsius (86F) with the camera switched on from cold for the first time indoors (ambient temp 27C)
2. We observed 46 Celsius after 5 minutes in stills mode, with no video recorded and one photo.
3. We set the intervalometer to take one still every 5 minutes (JPEG)
4. The temperature remained at a very steady 46C, however after 30 minutes the “Video Restricted” status activated in stills mode, with no video recorded whatsoever, and the internal camera temps still at 46C.

So the temperature didn’t increase whatsoever but the high quality video modes still went into lockdown.

Which part of the Canon manual explain this?
No video taken whatsoever, only one picture every 5mn.
But camera goes into heat protection BS and can't record any video!!!!???

You may want to rethink your blind love for Canon.

 

[Jonathan Thill]

Canon publish with each JPG a temperature reading, so you may want to try it yourself... You just need to read the EXIF data.

Indoors, during the evening we conducted the test as follows:

1. We observed 30 Celsius (86F) with the camera switched on from cold for the first time indoors (ambient temp 27C)
2. We observed 46 Celsius after 5 minutes in stills mode, with no video recorded and one photo.
3. We set the intervalometer to take one still every 5 minutes (JPEG)
4. The temperature remained at a very steady 46C, however after 30 minutes the “Video Restricted” status activated in stills mode, with no video recorded whatsoever, and the internal camera temps still at 46C.

So the temperature didn’t increase whatsoever but the high quality video modes still went into lockdown.

Which part of the Canon manual explain this?
No video taken whatsoever, only one picture every 5mn.
But camera goes into heat protection BS and can't record any video!!!!???

You may want to rethink your blind love for Canon.

Wow that is fascinating... So the temp sensor the "test" is reading is static at 46c. Wonder what the other sensors are reading?

Oh wait I do not give a shit...

I am going to go use my beloved R5, now if only I can find it with my poor eyesight.

 

[visionrouge.net]

This "test" sensor, as you call it, is the one stopping the camera from recording.
It's not a static 46C.
You may want to find your glasses and read the full article.

 

[Jonathan Thill]

This "test" sensor, as you call it, is the one stopping the camera from recording.
It's not a static 46C.
You may want to find your glasses and read the full article.

No I said... The sensor the "Test".... was reading was static at 46c. I used quotes because I think the "test" is flawed.

Just like my "test" using my own exif data is flawed because the "Camera Temperature" is reading from where???

My reported Camera Temperature is 36c, the back of the camera read 32c and the CFexpress card is 47c



Edit: I forgot to mention I would rather bathe my cat while naked then read anything on EOSHD...

Have a nice day

 

[SecureGSM]

Perhaps the second follows from the first...

The second part.. as in: “...it makes sense..”?
I gather, It likely doesn’t make sense to yourself. Hence your elaborate post explaining where in your opinion I was mistaken.
Opinions may differ.